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lancaster
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Rival rifle in 405 WCF
      #250061 - 06/07/14 06:54 PM

when you looking for something special in the net you allways stumble about unexpected things like a Manufrance Rival in 405 Winchester













made in 375 NE, 405 Winchester, 303 Brit and 8x50R Lebel



surprisingly Dorlaec had have a similar rifle for sale once as allways beautyful restored















this rifle was build with a Daudeteau action by Manufrance up to 1930 then replaced by a Mauser 98 in 10,75x68 with the same trademark.
I believe the actions still on stock came to an end than. the Daudeteau startet as an military rifle once:
http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FR%20Daudeteau%20cal%208%20mm.html

Manufrance made hunting rifles in 6,5x53SR Daudeteau (semi rimmed) and 8x53SR Rival -Mimard a necked up version of the original 6,5mm cartridge. this case is very close to the 7,62x54R Mosin cartridge so you can use this brass.


http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11303


a pre WW1 Rival rifle








the Rival mauser in 10,75x68



it seems this long stocks were quite popular in france. manufrance build also lebel sporting rifles with this stock design not to forget the mysterious Grasset in 445 Grasset Nitro Expres a cartridge still unidentified!








the Manufrance Lebel - Africain




the stock remember me allways on the original mauser african model


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #250133 - 07/07/14 10:32 PM

and rifle number 3 sold two years ago also in 405 win
http://www.naturabuy.fr/RARE-CARABINE-RIVAL-CAL-405-5IEME-CAT-item-1046129.html













actually the 405 wasnt a bad idea
its a compromise between common rifle caliber like the 303 and the big nitro express rounds. much better to handle and to shoot like the real big bores and the perfect thing for a farmer, soldier or official.

rifle in 8x50R Lebel



http://www.armes-de-collection.fr/armes-vendues/fusils-carabines/page/18/




a rifle unfortunately without the caliber but showing the nice finnish and colour case hardening that seems typical fore this model
http://www.naturabuy.fr/CARABINE-RIVAL-DE-MANUFRANCE-item-1499044.html














and here is also a short barrel "Mousqueton" rifle for the .375NE 2,5"
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Mousqueton-MANUFRANCE-RIVAL-Syst-DAUDETEAU-Cal-375-Anglais-item-722195.html


























Edited by lancaster (07/07/14 11:03 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #250152 - 08/07/14 02:24 AM

"made in 375 NE, 405 Winchester, 303 Brit and 8x50R Lebel"

Interesting thread.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #250278 - 11/07/14 04:38 AM





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #251506 - 03/08/14 10:14 PM

find the 1931 Manufrance catalog in the net
https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffeta/sets/72157622456911039/
while the ammo page have the 10,75x68 and the 405 Winchester for the old and the new Rival rifle there is no page showing the new Rival in 10,75 with a M 98 action in production since 1930.
this ammo is clearly loaded with a french powder also a 450 NE and a 577 NE cartridge. this ammo is unknown to cartridge collectors but maybe there was some kind of powder or ammo monopol than and they import cases and bullets and load it with french powder.



--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #253420 - 11/09/14 03:36 AM

another Rival in 8x50R Lebel






barrel lenght 65 cm, serial number 270A
http://www.naturabuy.fr/RIVAL-MANUFRANCE-item-1540792.html

this are very nice sporting rifle's, dont know what happen if I come close to such a thing



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #265510 - 25/05/15 02:00 PM

rival in 8x50R Lebel
http://www.ateliersaintetienne31.fr/arme...manufrance.html
















sporter in 6,5 Daudeteau
http://www.ateliersaintetienne31.fr/arme...-daudeteau.html













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (25/05/15 02:11 PM)


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Bidgee
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #265566 - 26/05/15 06:03 PM

Wow, what a good thread, thanks.

I actually find them a nice looking firearm and wouldn't say no to one in .405.


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Ash
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Bidgee]
      #265669 - 29/05/15 07:03 PM

If I got a Rival and a .445 Grassette I'll have a nice collection of French sporters, hmm!

Edit: found this

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-RIVAL-Manufrance-cal-10-75x68-Mauser-item-2545314.html

--------------------
.

Edited by Ash (29/05/15 07:28 PM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #265697 - 30/05/15 09:54 AM

Quote:






Which 8mm is this? 8x57?

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Ash]
      #265707 - 30/05/15 02:59 PM

Quote:

If I got a Rival and a .445 Grassette I'll have a nice collection of French sporters, hmm!

Edit: found this

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-RIVAL-Manufrance-cal-10-75x68-Mauser-item-2545314.html




Rival was a trade name not meaning a special action(ok, in the beginning it was the Dauteteau)but a kind of big game rifle. the post war Rival here is looking more in the common big bore rifle style.







the long stock reminds me allways on the African Model Mauser



Vietnam, could be a Rival

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (30/05/15 03:01 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #265708 - 30/05/15 03:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:






Which 8mm is this? 8x57?




its the 8x53R Dauteteau, a necked up version of the original 6,5x53R Dauteteau http://municion.org/ what was the original round for this rifle. the pic is showing a factory made sporter making by checkering the pistol grip.
this is a semi rimmed case you made on the lathe by using 7,62x54R brass.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Ash
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #265715 - 30/05/15 06:03 PM

Lancaster - i refer to the Dauteteau actioned Rival that i would like to get one of

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Carpetsahib
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #265719 - 31/05/15 01:20 AM

Thanks. These are fascinating rifles.

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #271811 - 17/10/15 06:07 PM

Rival in 8x50R Lebel for sale http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-8mm-lebel-rival-item-2892103.html











--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #303070 - 15/07/17 03:21 PM

the old Rival catalog pic




and the 1952 Manufrance catalog with the Mauser 98 rival in 10,75x68



http://www.tircollection.com/t31257-le-mas-36-chez-manufrance

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #305033 - 09/09/17 03:14 PM

a short "carbine" in 405 WCF http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-Mas-Rival-Deaudeteau-item-4124207.html















--------------------
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.
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #317312 - 16/06/18 04:19 AM

a Rival rifle in 8x50R Lebel
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Magnifique-carabinenRIVAL-calibre-8-mm-Lebel-item-4922772.html

















--------------------
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.
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rigbymauser
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #317359 - 18/06/18 06:38 AM

French cars and guns has never caught interest to me...but this thread however has brought about my attention....atleast in regards to guns and ammunition from French.

Thanks for sharing Lancaster.

Correction to the above: In regards to French cars...Inspector Columbo car was a Peugeot Model 403 which always intriqued me. The car was funny as Columbo...:LOL

https://www.google.com/search?q=columbo+...188&bih=566


Edited by rigbymauser (19/06/18 03:12 AM)


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DORLEAC
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: rigbymauser]
      #317364 - 18/06/18 03:19 PM

Quote:

French cars and guns has never caught interest to me...but this thread however has brought about my attention....atleast in regards to guns and ammunition from French.




You are right to have no interest in Bugatti or Nicolas Noël Boutet...

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: rigbymauser]
      #317365 - 18/06/18 04:18 PM

Quote:

French cars and guns has never caught interest to me...but this thread however has brought about my attention....atleast in regards to guns and ammunition from French.

Thanks for sharing Lancaster.

Correction to the above: In regards to French cars...Inspector Columbo car was a Peugeot Model 403 always intriqued me. The car was funny as Columbo...:LOL

https://www.google.com/search?q=columbo+...188&bih=566





What's not to love?


Citroen TPV

Citroen

The Germans have built some fine automobiles, as well.


Messerschmitt KR200



For French guns, without these we might be speaking English in the United States:

Charleville



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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #317372 - 19/06/18 04:15 AM

very dangerous minefield rigbymauser, a question of national pride

by example I never learn to love german cars with one exception




and if you like the volkswagen you have a affinity for the citroen too




of course, by todays standard they are only marginal better than a Ford T Model

but back to the Rival, there is no doubt that this rifles are very, very pc!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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rigbymauser
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #317373 - 19/06/18 05:18 AM

I learned back in the 70s the 2CV was made for 2 persons and 50kg of potatos.

Today one rarely see the 2CV anymore.

Fact is I am not much of a carperson. So really no one should take my views into account for anything.

I had a `78 Trans Am once. NIce car back then, but costed my a doublerifle in workshops..:LOL

Give me a Toyota of anykind(except for the Aygo). Never go to car workshops anymore and they have a good milage....and it´s starts every time.


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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: rigbymauser]
      #322077 - 02/12/18 07:04 AM

https://www.naturabuy.fr/Rare-lunette-Mi...em-5230134.html

Karl Kahles Mignon for the Rival rifle and because its an austrian scope they use also the austrian vienna snap mount!
never see this before

















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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DarylS
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #322079 - 02/12/18 07:18 AM

Quote:

when you looking for something special in the net you allways stumble about unexpected things like a Manufrance Rival in 405 Winchester




quote]

That's a good looking rifle! Now YOURS?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: DarylS]
      #322083 - 02/12/18 09:31 AM

Daryl, that IS a neat looking rifle!

lancaster, your threads are always fascinating.

I always find sporting arms from the non-anglo/non-teutonic world quite interesting. I have no exposure to them but the French have always been great hunters and have bed some of the finest hounds over the centuries, and of course their vast world-wide empire always lives in the shadow of the British in the English-speaking world.

Quite interesting to think of one of those rivals in the sweltering heat on the spoor of a tiger in Indochina!

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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #322086 - 02/12/18 09:37 AM

That Kahles is almost identical to the one on my George Gibbs 303.
Shows that even the Brits were not averse to utilizing a quality design in their own rifles.
Take the Mauser/Rigby scope mounting system - first it was Mauser's and then it became Rigby's.

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Huvius]
      #322312 - 09/12/18 06:09 AM

its the post war 10,75x68 but belongs to the rival rifle


1958 catalog



and 1965 catalog



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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ducmarc
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: DarylS]
      #322317 - 09/12/18 12:02 PM

my neighbor had a kr200 messerschmitt always wanted one like riding in a fighter plane. a real slow one

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: ducmarc]
      #327269 - 14/04/19 08:16 PM

another 8x50R lebel, SN 592
http://www.collections.musee-art-industr...72xapwci0otkv1z



--------------------
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.
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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #332317 - 14/09/19 04:54 AM

a short Mousqueton Rival Carbine, .405 WIN caliber, SN 521
with 20" barrel sold in Texas for 1700$ last summer what seems me low priced for such a rare rifle.
https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Milita...mation/49091738





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Ash
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #344529 - 23/08/20 03:03 PM

I forgot about these things. Still love em though!

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crshelton
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: DarylS]
      #344541 - 23/08/20 10:24 PM

Lancaster ,
Thank you for the interesting post.
The .405 carbine would be a very compact, handy, and powerful brush and truck gun.
I had to smile when I first saw the slope of the magazine as it is so much like that of my Winchester 1895 .405.


I own a Manufrance-made 12 gauge pump distributed by Marlin many years ago. A well made gun that has broken many clay targets and taken its share of fowl including wild turkey.

Is Manufrance still making guns?

--------------------
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Louis
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: crshelton]
      #344557 - 24/08/20 05:07 PM

Manufrance stopped trading in the early 1980's and was declared bankrupt in 1985; the company, which had specialised in catalog based sales since their creation in 1885 had not anticipated on the market change. Manufrance was the reference for hunting, fishing, cycling and all outdoor/farming life supply; they were supplying all rural France and the colonies and were the larger employer in the city of Saint Etienne in central France, where they were based. I can recall buying their catalog each year when a teenager and spending hours browsing repeatedly through it.
Since the late 80's a 'new' Manufrance re-started trading on a much limited scale and still manufactures shotguns that were previously manufactured by the 'older' Manufrance.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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crshelton
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Louis]
      #344564 - 24/08/20 09:32 PM

Thank you Louis for the information. It is good to hear Manufrance is till extant.
It must be challenging for a huge established corporation to handle dramatic market changes.
Sears is one such example in the US.

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: crshelton]
      #348782 - 03/01/21 03:59 AM

8x50R Lebel , long rifle ,https://www.azurarmes.fr/armes-et-objets-vendus/1893-rare-carabine-rival-8-mm-lebel-categorie-d.html













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #356631 - 07/09/21 05:00 AM

a 405 Win that sold very quickly over the last weekend, SN 525
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Mousqueton-DAUDETEAU-item-8272770.html

























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #367597 - 09/07/22 02:49 AM

SN 525 in 405 Winchester, https://www.naturabuy.fr/RIVAL-DAUDETEAU--item-9277458.html





















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Marc
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #375247 - 18/03/23 03:13 AM

Here's mine!











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Marc
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Marc]
      #375250 - 18/03/23 03:58 AM

I'll take it boar hunting next year.

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Marc]
      #375252 - 18/03/23 04:28 AM

bonjour
allways have a special relationship with the 8x50R because a Lebel rifle was my first illegal one when I was 14. later got it on licence with an amnesty.of course, I shoot it before.
You load your own hunting ammo with PRVI brass? what bullet, a .323 S hunting bullet? don't know if Privi make .326 softpoints.

what I ask myself is the legal status this rifle had in france from 1939 over decades when the military caliber was banned for civilians. We know this was no problem if the rifle was in the colonys because it only matter in the mainland. was there a special licence for such a hunting rifles in a forbidden caliber in this time?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Marc
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #375254 - 18/03/23 04:57 AM

Howdy!
Me too, I always loved this cartridge. I remember my grandfather, he told me about this rifle that was firing at five kilometers, as it was written in the dictionary.
I shot several boars with my Berthier mousqueton, it have a pretty tight bore, so I used RWS 323" bullets with nice accuracy.
I owned lots of 8mm Lebel rifles or mousquetons, and bores range in size from 325" to 330". I slugged this Rival, and I found .333"!
I haven't shot it yet. But I think to size down 338" bullets to 334". I already did it for my 10,75X68. A cartridge loaded with Hornady Interlock 250 grains round nose would look good!

A Lebel rifle is no laughting matter. I own one with superb bore (very scarce thing), and regularly I beat shooters firing much more modern guns, with Lothar barrels...
I use Prvi brass, but Tpm bullets, they're astonishing.

Until 1939 everything was free, from pistols to machineguns. I don't know in colonies, but I had a friend who made meat in the 50's with a 1907-15 rifle, so it was probably free.

Edited by Marc (18/03/23 05:13 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Marc]
      #375256 - 18/03/23 06:10 AM

.333 is hefty! for an original .326 bullet but I suspect it was working once.
PRVI make a 208 grains softpoint for the austrian /hungarian 8x56R that should measure .330
https://www.prvipartizan.com/search_rbl.php
this could be the right stuff for your rifle.

you maybe have a problem with your die set when loading such an oversized bullet./?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #375257 - 18/03/23 06:26 AM

They're hard to find, but I'm not in a hurry!

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Marc]
      #375281 - 18/03/23 11:08 PM

I would like to see some pics with such a rifle on the range and hunting

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #375289 - 19/03/23 02:37 AM

and btw, it would be most interesting to see how the magazine works internal, how it hold the upper cartridge and how it avoid rim lock or not

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #375291 - 19/03/23 03:03 AM

Here it is!

It’s pretty in the catalogue pages, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it...









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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Marc]
      #375296 - 19/03/23 06:47 AM

this looks like it work very similar to a Mosin magazine



I would say the red arrow points to the case ejector.
the button in the red circle operates the cartridge interrupter ( blue arrow) when you close the bolt. than another cartridge move to the top so it can be taken by the bolt when you reload the rifle. when open the bolt you can unload the magazine when you push the button.
is this right?



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Marc
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #375297 - 19/03/23 07:04 AM

Yes. But you have to push the bolt cartridge after cartridge to unload the magazine.

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lancaster
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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: Marc]
      #375298 - 19/03/23 07:11 AM

ok, thanks
I thought in the way the Steyr M 12 pistol empty the magazine.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #378182 - 31/07/23 01:37 AM

8x50R rifle https://www.naturabuy.fr/RARE-CARABINE-M...m-10265033.html











405 Win carbine https://www.galeriedemars.fr/archives-/8...rance-xixe.html











--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: Rival rifle in 405 WCF [Re: lancaster]
      #383589 - 24/03/24 04:04 AM

8x50R Lebel https://www.naturabuy.fr/Splendide-carabine-RIVAL-item-11544035.html




















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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