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NitroXAdministrator
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Open sight rifle shooting distances?
      #247970 - 27/05/14 11:13 PM

The NE forums are probably a good place to ask this. We have a lot of members shooting, often classic, open sighted rifles, for hunting.

What sort of distances do you shoot your open sighted rifles at, at game? What sort of circumstances, ie tell us a little about it?

I include V sights and also peep sights here. Tell us which one you are using too please.

I enjoy using my V sights but most usually as most people do, use a scope nowadays. I grew up first starting rifle shooting with an old, self refurbished Lithgow single shot .22 rimfire, with its crude rear sight. Was quite good with it too. Then when I upgraded to a .222 Rem with a scope and a .22 RF Anshutz with a scope, lost a lot of ability with open sights. I think one is more careful and takes slower better shots with the open sights. But I could head shoot rabbits with it to maybe a hundred yards (.22 RF) but usually much much closer. Was a better stalker then too for that reason. Usually I would only take closer shots with open sights.

Would be great to hear of others experiences and what is considered reasonable and sensible from others from their own experiences. Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Al333
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: NitroX]
      #247981 - 27/05/14 11:57 PM

I shoot a lot with open sighted guns. (mostly lever guns). Most of them I would feel comfortable shooting 100 yds. offhand. If I could get a good rest I would push that to 150 yds. I carry a range finder with me when I hunt. Believe it or not my most accurate rifle is a Shilo 50-70 carbine with 70 grs. ffg compressed with a 450 gr bullet. This is hunting rifles I am mentioning, I do have more accurate target firearms. At this time I only own 1 scoped rifle. Also my 75 year old eyes are not as good as they were 40 years ago. Find this a very interesting thread, looking forward to some of the reply's. Al

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Al333]
      #247988 - 28/05/14 01:34 AM

I think on big game the maximum distance to use iron sights is the distance under field conditions (NOT from a bench rest !) is that a hunter can hit a 9" kill zone consistently from standing or sitting ;the positions used most in the field. In the Marine Corps we qualify every year with a service rifle out to 500 yards . Most Marines can hit a man at 500 almost every time with a service rifle with issued iron sights . That being said a target is not a big game animal and one wants to kill cleanly ;out of respect for the animal so shooting at an animal at that distance by anyone is not ethical. A hunter should practice position shooting at various ranges with iron sights ,apply the 9" group kill zone rule and then determine what his range limitations are.

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (28/05/14 02:19 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #247991 - 28/05/14 01:52 AM

The 9" analogy is a good one - pie plates used for testing this also work as they can be painted to be visible ---- something animal's colouration lacks.

In my own testing, I've proven I'm OK with my open sighted rifles, to 200yards - including the 9.3x57 (moose in 2009 exactly 200yards - impact right on the bead=perfect), .45/60 Sharps w/405RP's or 500gr. RN cast and my .69 smoke-pole with 480gr. RBs. All the rest have scopes. That 200ard moose shot was the second longest shot ever taken by me with any rifle on big game, scope or otherwise. Most are inside 100yards - scope or open sights, and many inside 60 yards.

Much depends on where you hunt.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Sville
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: DarylS]
      #247999 - 28/05/14 02:51 AM

I have never shot on an animal with open sights, I have tried a few times on targets and find it rather difficult. I will follow this with interest.

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Ripp
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Sville]
      #248011 - 28/05/14 04:53 AM

As I kid growing up in the plains, all we ever had was open sighted .22 rimfires or pellet guns untili we got old enough to make some money and get a rifle of our own..my first was my uncles .303 British..which I used for a half dozen years or more soley for hunting whitetail deer in ND..

Its funny on how now days, I shoot my scoped guns off a bench to make sure they are grouping properly and the loads are chronographed ..back then, shot whatever ammo was available..would shoot at a target at 100 yards to make sure it was close and called it good. It worked and worked well..shooting whitetail with it either still hunting or on drives..seems life was so much simpler then.

Personally I feel shooting open sights is VERY different from person to person..while many claims they can shoot and hit consistently at various distances..have not seen many that can do it...think the old saying "don't tell me, show me" applies here. But it certainly seems to make a difference shooting them as you are growing up and using them alot versus starting out later in life. I still use my fathers .22 Winchester open sighted from time to time as well as my Marlin 22 lever action..they are both still very accurate if I do my part.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Rell
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Ripp]
      #248022 - 28/05/14 08:59 AM

With factory open sight on a lever action Winchester I'm limited to 75m. The same gun with a tang sight I am good to 225m. That is with very good light. What does not come across is how hard it is to shoot open sights well in low light or super bright light. The last 20 minutes of shooting light I'm only really good for 100m not 225 with the peep sight.

Express sights on my doubles are 75m in perfect light and down to 50m at the witching hour.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Marrakai
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Rell]
      #248023 - 28/05/14 09:13 AM

Regularly shoot boar-size game out to 70 or 80 metres with express-sighted rifles, and have made shots to ~180m or so by flipping up the 200yd leaf. One on a fast-walking pig at almost 200 with my .400 Jeffery was caught on video.
However: it depends a great deal on the sights!
I have shouldered a number of express-sighted doubles belonging to other people that I wouldn't have taken into the hunting field without serious modification if they were mine!
A correctly-sized gold bead, fairly fine, over a wide vee rear with gold or platinum centre-line or triangle should be good to well over 100 metres, up to 200 metres with a rest of some kind.
Some "traditional" sights such as the barleycorn/buckhorn are a serious handicap with my eyes and I have trouble understanding how they were ever used successfully in the field, particularly when the quarry is on the move.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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VonGruff
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Marrakai]
      #248028 - 28/05/14 11:35 AM

My aperture sighted 7x57 has kills to nearly 200 yds (on goat) but that was rested but would be comfortable offhand to 100-150yds as I would with my other open sighted rifles in 303 (Martini Enfield) and 577-450 (Martini Henry).

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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chuck375
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: VonGruff]
      #248029 - 28/05/14 01:00 PM

My oldest son has always shot our Marlin 30-30 with open sights offhand into 3" groups at 100 yards. It still never ceases to amaze me. I can do the same at 50 yards only. It's nice when your sons can outdo you, as long as it doesn't come too early

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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gatsby
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: chuck375]
      #248031 - 28/05/14 03:36 PM

Open sites to 200yds with a rifle shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Shots 100 and 150 when hunting with an open sited handgun aren't that uncommon.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Sville
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: gatsby]
      #248038 - 28/05/14 04:37 PM

I think that's impressive!

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Sville]
      #248072 - 28/05/14 11:19 PM

Interestingly ,the late Jeff Cooper of Gunsite and IPSC fame had a test for new students to Jeffs basic rifle school course at Gunsite. Before the course began a student was asked on demand to take their rifle and from an unsupported prone position ,put 4 of 5 shots into a 9" circle (head shot ) at 300 yards .No sighting in shots . Most students had scopes on their rifles.In all his years as owner/instructor at Gunsite not one person could do it except a handful of US Marines that obviously are trained in rifle marksmanship to a high degree. Jeff stated the amazing thing was almost all of the students THOUGHT they could do it. Jeff stated that this test was a facsimile of what the average Boer rifleman could do with his 7mm Mauser with iron sights). At Spion Kop, Boer rifleman decimated the British with mostly head shots from long range. Daniel Morgan's rifleman during the Revolution had to pass a test which they had to put 3 shots consecutively into a 2"x 6" vertical post at 200 yards standing with a Pennsylvania long rifle. Their best shooter Tim Murphy would do this easily at even longer distance . Cooper says the reason for such poor marksmanship today is the use of the bench rest. People are obsessed with shooting tiny groups off double bags and have totally lost (or never found) their rifle skills. When I go to the range I never see people shooting from positions and only from the bench. Cooper was right.

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Lutz
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #248077 - 28/05/14 11:45 PM

In Germany it is absolutely common to use scopes or redpoints.
Some people use open sights when hunting (driven) on very short distances or searching wounded game. On my Mauser I have a special open sight for fast shooting on fast game (wild boar), but only as 'backup'. Normaly I use a scope like 1,5-6 also on driven hunts.
In my opinion shooting with an open sight is a backup, nice sports or absolutely reqierd for military. Why should I forgo(?) an advantage with a scope?

@Deutsche Vortrekker:
I think that are two things you are talking about. Shooting with open sight and shooting without a bench.
Of course it is always good to be familiar with the basics...like shooting without scope or bench.


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Duett
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Lutz]
      #248079 - 29/05/14 12:17 AM

I thought some of you would be interested about the following discussion on another site about hunting with iron sights. Very interesting topic indeed!

http://www.shootersforum.com/open-sight/80076-hunting-iron-sights.html


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Duett]
      #248089 - 29/05/14 03:44 AM

My principal open sighted shooting since the earlier days has been with my .450 double rifle at closer ranges, 80 yards or less usually on a variety of game from pigs to elephant. Elephant is one game animal where possible open sights are still used more than scopes.

Even though I very rarely attend, the BGRC shoots are good practice for open sighted shooting. Scopes are penalised. No silly benches either. But at the Nationals last year I learned it can be very hard when your front sight falls off half way through one of the shoots ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: NitroX]
      #248097 - 29/05/14 04:52 AM

NitroX and others who hunt dangerous game on a consistent basis must know how to use iron sights effectively ;their life depends on it . A scope in close quarters can get you very dead. As one PH told me once " A charging Cape buffalo does NOT need any magnification"

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zimhunter
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #248109 - 29/05/14 11:07 AM

Only thing I have shot with open sights in many many years have been a couple of Elephant at VERY close range and one of those I shot high and missed a brain shot. I have worn glasses since about 5 years old and even with them in these late years I don't see too well. And wearing trifocals I have a very difficult time with Irons getting everything in reasonable focus. I do like the red dots though and they are remarkably good. Would they really be considered 'open sights'?

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VonGruff
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: Duett]
      #248110 - 29/05/14 11:33 AM

Quote:

I thought some of you would be interested about the following discussion on another site about hunting with iron sights. Very interesting topic indeed!

http://www.shootersforum.com/open-sight/80076-hunting-iron-sights.html




Some very good points there and welcome to NE.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: zimhunter]
      #248117 - 29/05/14 02:13 PM

Quote:

Only thing I have shot with open sights in many many years have been a couple of Elephant at VERY close range and one of those I shot high and missed a brain shot. I have worn glasses since about 5 years old and even with them in these late years I don't see too well. And wearing trifocals I have a very difficult time with Irons getting everything in reasonable focus. I do like the red dots though and they are remarkably good. Would they really be considered 'open sights'?




No red dots are not considered open sights however ....

I believe in BGRC rules they are or are not mentioned.

I think they are an excellent alternative to open sights to those with some type of sight loss.

What type of sight loss do you have?

BTW can type do you use? Is the dot "fuzzy" or "stary" for you? Mine is slightly starred, but was not when I first bought them. I didn't believe it wasn't a circle until I took a photo of them and it is a circle in the photo.

My problem which only occurred after being ill, is I now need reading glasses sometimes, low light, very small print. I still do very well reading the eye chart lines at the doctor's but can't read the smallest line anymore consistently or like I used to be able to read the "printed at XXXX" line below the actual test lines.

I was told by BwanaBob on NE (an employee of Trijicon) that the triangle dot sight works better for some with seeing difficulties. I wanted to swap mine, but got a negative to this. Have to see if I can get a loaner to see if it is true.

Red dot sights are offered by Heym now as a standard if the customer asks for them.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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xausa
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: NitroX]
      #248121 - 29/05/14 02:29 PM

I shot high power rifles competitively from the early 1960's until about eight years ago, when I developed osteo-arthritis and could no longer assume the positions required. Since then, I have developed a problem with my right eye which precludes aiming with it.

In competition, which involved shooting at ranges from 200 to 600 yards and beyond, only iron sights were allowed. This could be the issue sights on military rifles or commercial receiver sights. At 200 yards, the black portion of the target was a circle 13" in diameter, which contained a 3" "X ring", used to break ties, a 7" "10 ring" and a 3" wide "9 ring".

At 300 yards the scoring rings were the same size, but the black portion of the target was extended to include a 3" wide "8 ring", for a total black diameter of 19".

At 600 yards, the black portion of the target is 36" in diameter, and includes a 6" "X ring", a 12" "10 ring", an 18" "9 ring", a 24" "8 ring" and a 36" "7 ring".

From these numbers it can be seen that in the steady positions (rapid fire and slow fire prone) the "X" ring represents one minute of angle and the "10" ring roughly two minutes of angle.

The normal course of fire is 20 shots slow fire standing at 200 yards, with a time limit of 20 minutes, and 20 shots rapid fire, standing to sitting in two ten shot strings, with a time limit of 60 seconds each, including a required reload. When you figure approximately 12 seconds to assume the position and five seconds to reload and resume the position, that leaves about 43 seconds to fire ten shots, or a little over four seconds per shot.

At 300 yards, the match consists of 20 shots rapid fire, standing to prone, in two ten shot strings, with a time limit of 70 seconds each, including a required reload. Again, subtracting the time required to get into position and to reload, there are approximately 53 seconds left, or a little over 5 seconds per shot.

At 600 yards, the match consists of 20 shots slow fire prone with a time limit of 20 minutes.

In my younger days, standing scores in the low 190's were not unusual, nor were sitting scores in the high 190's. Prone rapid fire and slow fire resulted in scores in the low 190's, although on more than one occasion I managed to shoot perfect scores of 200 at 600 yards. I averaged around 97 points out of 100 throughout the matches, a respectable, but by no means outstanding score.

In Africa, my heavy rifle, a .505 of my own design, was equipped with iron sights only, and I never felt handicapped by having to rely on my trusted Lyman 48 receiver sight.

However, even with a scope I never attempted shots beyond 300 yards, for the simple reason that a bullet takes a perceptible amount of time to travel 300 yards and beyond, and that means that there is always time for the target animal to move while the bullet is in the air, resulting in a gut shot, rather than one in the heart/lungs area. This happened to me once, shooting at an oryx at around 300 yards, and we had to track the wounded animal for miles before we recovered him.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: xausa]
      #248124 - 29/05/14 03:35 PM

A couple of illustrations:





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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HendrikNZ
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: NitroX]
      #248125 - 29/05/14 04:05 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knNK8Rljhzg

The 1st bit shows the Ar10, but the rest of the vid is all open sights!
The gong is 12" x 12".

I'm still working on getting a LeftRight double using the 470, so far its proven elusive!


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xausa
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: NitroX]
      #248137 - 30/05/14 12:51 AM

The illustration of an aperture rear and post front sight shows the "pumpkin on a fence post" sight picture, which is by no means universal. Many pistol shooters and a number of rifle shooters use the "point of aim" or "Navy" hold, by which is meant that the top of the post is held in the center of the bullseye, so that no sight adjustment is made to allow for the size of the aiming point. The "Navy" hold requires the shooter to concentrate his focus on the front sight, which looks blacker than the target itself, always an important element of successful metallic sights aiming.

With a hunting rifle, shooting to the point of aim is of course essential.


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DarylS
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Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances? [Re: xausa]
      #248151 - 30/05/14 08:30 AM

When shooting hunting rifles with post or beads and open or peep sights, all of my rifles are sighted thit dead centre on the top of the post, or dead centre middle of the bead. There is no 6 o'clock on an amimal. I want to know exactly where my bullet or ball is landing, not some 3, 6 or 10" above the post or bead dependent on the diameter of the bull I sighted in with as the illustrations would have happen. These would be launching my bullet upwards at horrid elevation to cause misses at intermediate ranges.

If I sighted 6 o'clock on an 8" bull at 75yards with my post, thus placing the bullet 4" (plus a bit to see light under the bull to know I had a 6 o'clock hold, WHERE will that bullet hit in relation to the bead or post at 200yards) 1 foot, 1 1/2 feet or maybe 3 feet high - dead on -depending on what calibre?

Thus, I disagree with the open sight illustration. Sighting in so the bullet hits middle of the top surface of the post or centre of the bead - always have an definite impact "in relation to your aim", not hitting at some unknown location above the sight.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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