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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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awanderingbear
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Reged: 12/05/14
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Loc: Pacifc Northwest
Made in Germany
      #247647 - 22/05/14 02:41 AM

I have recently joined this Forum, and perhaps my inquiry has been dealt with previously? I have not found it specifically mentioned in the researching of older Posts (it might be there, I wasn't able to find it if it was?).

I have been around Mannlicher Schoenauer/Steyr carbines and rifles since the late 1970's, having had upwards of from twelve to twenty at one given time. In the 1990's I thinned down my accumulation of M-S firearms to other collectors, though retained the first carbine I'd bought, a Made in Germany Model 1903 6.5x54mm, proofed in .39, along with two other Model 1903's. Since then a few of others have found a home with me! Once they get in your blood...

My first Model 1903 carbine is marked on top of the front ring of the action Made in Germany. I am familiar with Germany forming a union with Austria in 1938 and thereafter M-S/Steyr carbines/rifles were marked Made in Germany from 1938-1945.

Made in Germany marked carbines/rifles, at least in the United States, are rather rare to find, or so it has been my experience. Granted, directly after 1938 the factory was most likely involved with producing other products than sporting rifles for the general public or export, so production may have been limited?

Hopefully members will share information/knowledge and their experiences regarding: Made in Germany marked firearms. Such as: are they very common in Europe (probably more so than in the US), or are they also difficult to find? Other discussion is most welcome as well.

best of regards,
awanderingbear

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lancaster
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: awanderingbear]
      #247648 - 22/05/14 03:40 AM

I would think that up to 1942 sporting rifle fabrication at the Steyr factory was at pre war level

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HistoricBore
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: lancaster]
      #247657 - 22/05/14 08:16 AM

I only have one Mannlicher - Schoenauer rifle, which is a 1903 6.5 x 54 carbine with set triggers made in the late 1930s. Mine is also clearly marked 'Made in Germany'. I have not taken the woodwork apart to check the original proof marks.

However mine is Serial number 25,6xx . What other serial numbers are there out there for other 'Made in Germany' rifles?

HB

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awanderingbear
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: HistoricBore]
      #247680 - 22/05/14 04:08 PM

lancaster: makes sense, the closer to 1942 the fewer sporting rifles were being produced.
A shame factory records 'went somewhere' during or after the war. Which is another reason for M-S enthusiasts to work together to help gather information on them. No, I'm not on some major crusade here, but interested in the Made in Germany marked rifles. A small piece of the M-S history pie!

HistoricBore: the Made in Germany, proofed .39 I have is S/N 25,2xx. Quite likely you'll find a .39 on your rifle? Thank you for sharing.

It would be appreciated if others would share in on this query of Made in Germany marked M-S's.
It's how we learn more of the history of Mannlicher Schoenauer firearms - it's called sharing.
If I've made enough Posts in the Forum, or what it takes to post pictures, will post some of the Made in Germany Model 1903 I've provided a home for since 1977.

At the 1998 Mannlicher Collector's Association banquet held in western Washington, over dinner I spoke with Don Henry (founder and President of the MCA) and he commented that in all of his years of collecting and researching M-S rifles, including trips to Europe and the Steyr factory, he had seen maybe 11 rifles marked Made in Germany. In Alaska and the Pacific Northwestern states of the United States, since 1977, I have seen 3 such marked rifles. Of course there's more out there, though we may never know how many, but with the help of some folks in the Forum here, we might all learn more about them and maybe get a better feel on how many might have been made... thank you

Edited by awanderingbear (22/05/14 04:37 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: awanderingbear]
      #247684 - 22/05/14 05:06 PM

Quote:


If I've made enough Posts in the Forum, or what it takes to post pictures, will post some of the Made in Germany Model 1903 I've provided a home for since 1977.





Anyone can post photos. You need to use a third party site, photo hosting account, your own net account etc to load up the gif or jpg files and then post the web address on here with the image code to display them. There are threads as stickies and in the help forum to help explain how if you need help.

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awanderingbear
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: NitroX]
      #247716 - 23/05/14 03:38 AM

x

Edited by awanderingbear (23/05/14 07:59 AM)

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awanderingbear
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: awanderingbear]
      #247717 - 23/05/14 03:40 AM





Edited by NitroX (23/05/14 04:16 AM)

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awanderingbear
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Reged: 12/05/14
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: awanderingbear]
      #247718 - 23/05/14 03:50 AM

Mannlicher Schoenauer
Model 1903
6.5x54mm
Scope mount: unknown maker
Scope: Sirius 4x, German #1 reticle

1. front ring of action, marked Made in Germany


2. left side view of Model 1903 carbine


3. left side close-up view of scope mount and scope


Thank you NitroX

Edited by awanderingbear (23/05/14 07:56 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: awanderingbear]
      #247738 - 23/05/14 03:38 PM

In photobucket there is a number of options to the right of the photo. One is called "Direct". Click on it and it copies the code for you. Simply paste it into the forums page. It has URL and IMG in its code and these seem to work fine as shown above.

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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chapmen
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: NitroX]
      #247747 - 23/05/14 05:19 PM

Looks like the typical "AKAH" side mount. Is it DRGM stamped?

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awanderingbear
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: chapmen]
      #247786 - 24/05/14 12:51 AM

Presently I am 1,200 miles away from this carbine, so not able to verify the initials on the mount. I will be back to it in two months time.
Perhaps an "AKAH" mount? I do like this mount: very solid and returns to zero when removed then reattached. I have one Model 1903 with Jaeger (US made) mounts, which are similar, they also work well for a return to zero when reattached.


Edited by awanderingbear (24/05/14 01:53 AM)

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Bagboy
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: awanderingbear]
      #259261 - 21/01/15 05:10 PM

I'm new to the forum and was just reading some of the older post when I found this one. I have a "MADE IN GERMANY' Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5 x 57 with a claw mount and Made in Germany B. Nickel scope. It still has the cleaning rod in the buttplate. It was brought back after WWII by a G.I. who never shot it because he couldn't find any ammo, or so I was told. I have pictures if I can figure how to up load them.

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A10ACN
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: Bagboy]
      #259298 - 21/01/15 11:19 PM

Quote:

I'm new to the forum and was just reading some of the older post when I found this one. I have a "MADE IN GERMANY' Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5 x 57 with a claw mount and Made in Germany B. Nickel scope. It still has the cleaning rod in the buttplate. It was brought back after WWII by a G.I. who never shot it because he couldn't find any ammo, or so I was told. I have pictures if I can figure how to up load them.



Bit of strangeness in this. M/S were made in Austria and chambered in 6.5x54. Why don't you repost this as a separate post with pics and we can determine what you have.

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Bagboy
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: A10ACN]
      #259305 - 22/01/15 03:37 AM

I'm trying to open an account with photobucket but it's not showing me a code to type in the box.

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kuduae
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: A10ACN]
      #259317 - 22/01/15 08:24 AM

Quote:

Bit of strangeness in this. M/S were made in Austria



Not strange at all. From March 12, 1938, the Anschluss = annexation of Austria by Hitler's Grossdeutschland til the end of WW2 in 1945, Austria and the Steyr City were a part of Germany called the Ostmark. So all goods made during those years were marked "Made in Germany" and bear German proofmarks.

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Bagboy
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: A10ACN]
      #259328 - 22/01/15 01:16 PM



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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: Bagboy]
      #259374 - 23/01/15 07:53 PM

Kuduae, when you say they all bear German proof marks, were they still proof marked "NPv" Or were Steyr given a special German mark like a stag's antler and etc., used by German proof houses?

Also, I'm thinking particularly of existing inventory on-hand from before the Anschluss, would this be over-stamped afterwards and have 2 sets of marks? I'm just wondering how it all worked in practise.

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Bagboy
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #259379 - 23/01/15 10:26 PM

It does have some proof marks on the barrel right above the stock, I'll look tomorrow and see what they are.

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kuduae
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #259381 - 23/01/15 10:44 PM

Quote:

Kuduae, when you say they all bear German proof marks, were they still proof marked "NPv" Or were Steyr given a special German mark like a stag's antler and etc., used by German proof houses?

Also, I'm thinking particularly of existing inventory on-hand from before the Anschluss, would this be over-stamped afterwards and have 2 sets of marks? I'm just wondering how it all worked in practise.


First, from 1938 to 1940, many had the Austrian, Vienna proofhouse NPv proofs. There was no need to overstamp them, as Austrian proofmarks were then valid in Germany too. From 1940 on the new German proof law applied too, so there had to be the spread eagle/N mark, the proof date and the proofhouse mark. The Vienna proofhouse with it's Steyr branch used the arms of Vienna City, a shield with a cross inside.

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Bagboy
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: kuduae]
      #259415 - 24/01/15 03:14 PM

Here's a picture of the proof stamp.

Edited by Bagboy (24/01/15 03:16 PM)

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Bagboy
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: Bagboy]
      #259416 - 24/01/15 03:17 PM

The receiver stamp.

Edited by Bagboy (24/01/15 03:20 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: Bagboy]
      #259424 - 25/01/15 02:57 AM

The rifle still has the Austrian Vienna proof marks. The two-headed Austrian eagle with a 2 for Vienna on chest but without the "republican" hammer & sickle in claws was used from 1938 to March 1940 only as the primary proofmark. This dates the rifle to 1939 +/- a few months. The NPv is still the Vienna Nitro proof mark. Besides these two marks there should be the year of proof marked too, as 39., maybe covered by the wood. The inscription "Waffenfabrik Steyr" is unusual too, as it was used after the "Anschluss" 1938 only. Since 1934 the official name of the combine was "Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG", but the M-Sch rifles were still marked with the familiar old name "Oesterr.Waffenfabr.-Ges.Steyr" = "Austrian Arms Factory Company Steyr". My .37 proofed M-Sch m1910 is still marked such, as is my .34 m1925. After the "Anschluss" they not only marked their rifles "Made in Germany", but left off the hint to past Oesterreich = Austria.

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Bagboy
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: kuduae]
      #259428 - 25/01/15 05:04 AM

The serial number is 52xx and matches on the barrel and receiver. If that helps date it?

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kuduae
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: Bagboy]
      #259432 - 25/01/15 06:43 AM

Quote:

The serial number is 52xx and matches on the barrel and receiver. If that helps date it?


No. As I wrote above, the inscriptions and the proof mark eagle alone date the rifle to 2 years in total: from April 1938 to March 1940. So it was most likely made in 1939. If you want to get even closer, take the rifle apart and look for the proof date, either .38 or .39 or .40. Steyr serial numbers are hardly usable for dating, as the Steyr files reside now in some Russian archive. Further, Steyr restarted each model with it's own serial number range, models 1903, 1905, 1908, 1910, 1924, 1925, 1950 all starting with #1 over again. Let alone the Greek Military M-Schs!

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Made in Germany [Re: kuduae]
      #259444 - 25/01/15 04:45 PM

Very helpful, thanks.

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