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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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Bagboy
.224 member

Reged: 16/01/15
Posts: 37
Loc: Arizona

Re: Made in Germany [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
#259447 - 25/01/15 06:55 PM

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.

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MRobinson
.275 member

Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England

Re: Made in Germany [Re: Bagboy]
#284687 - 29/06/16 11:47 AM

I have one of these "Made in Germany" Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1903s.

No small irony that "Made in Germany" was roll-marked in English on the receiver ring, even in the midst of WWII!

Mine is SN 25,7xx and was made in 1944. Not much of WWII was left for Steyr at that time.

Steyr was taken by US and Soviet troops, who met on the bridge over the Enns River, on 9 May 1945.

I sometimes wonder if mine might be the last M1903 ever made.

--------------------
Mike

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MRobinson
.275 member

Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England

Re: Made in Germany [Re: MRobinson]
#285074 - 12/07/16 07:46 AM

Well I found one with a SN about 50 numbers later than mine.

Reportedly made as a presentation piece for Gen. Mark Clark of the U.S. Army when he was CIC of U.S forces in Austria, in 1945.

This would seem to indicate that 1903s were made by Steyr at least through 1945.

--------------------
Mike

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MRobinson
.275 member

Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England

Re: Made in Germany [Re: MRobinson]
#285462 - 19/07/16 03:04 PM

Interesting information on Steyr history and Gen. Clark:

"After the war the resumption of civil production was attempted but failed, however, due to the enormous air-raid-damage, the dismantling of the works by the Russian occupying forces in 1945, and by armaments production restrictions imposed by the Allied powers similar to those imposed in the period after 1918. It wasn’t until 1950 that Steyr was able to start producing hunting rifles with the approval of the US high-commissioner, General Mark Clark. With production again allowed, Steyr began to manufactured the well-known Mannlicher-Schönauer hunting carbines and small-bore rifles anew."

--------------------
Mike

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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand

Re: Made in Germany [Re: MRobinson]
#285468 - 19/07/16 09:54 PM

The only really weird aspect of all of this is the use of English script in the MADE IN GERMANY legend. While this would suggest such rifles were destined for export to countries in the British Empire and the US, it seems hard to understand why an English script would be used after the US entered the War on the side of the allies in 1941. Why would the German authorities stamp MADE IN GERMANY on an M-S rifle post 1941, assuming there actually were M-S sporting rifles being built post '41?

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MRobinson
.275 member

Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England

Re: Made in Germany [Re: lonewulf]
#285479 - 20/07/16 02:51 AM

Agreed, and there absolutely were M-S sporting rifles being built by Steyr post-1941. As noted above, I have one marked "Made in Germany" that was produced in 1944.

Here's more on the Clark M-S. I wonder if this one was the last 1903 ever made?

"Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1903 Carbine. Cal. 6.5 Norm. (6.5X54). SN 25766. Beautiful little carbine with 18 inch tapered rnd bbl, ramp mounted, dovetailed front sight with German silver blade and 2-leaf express rear sight. It has dbl set triggers and the trigger bow is inlaid in heavy gold block letters “MWC”. Mounted in extra finish, very highly figured French walnut with full length stock that has raised side panels and checkered forestock with checkered pistol grip that has what appears to be a tortoise shell grip cap. Buttstock has a European cheekpiece and serrated steel buttplate with trap containing a 4-pc brass & steel cleaning rod and two other empty holes. Forestock has a sling loop with corresponding loop in the buttstock. Undoubtedly this was presented to Gen. Clark when he was the U.S. High Commissioner of Austria."

--------------------
Mike

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MRobinson
.275 member

Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England

Re: Made in Germany [Re: MRobinson]
#285506 - 21/07/16 02:50 AM

By the way, what I don't know about this rifle is how it was roll-stamped on the top of the receiver ring.

"Made in Germany" is possible, but the rifle was certainly presented, and possibly made, well after the cessation of hostilities. And it was being given to an American general.

It would be interesting indeed if Steyr changed from stamping 1903s with "Made in Austria" during the period before the Anschluss in 1938, to "Made in Germany" afterwards until the end of the war in 1945, and then back to "Made in Austria" for the (one would think) relatively few they made until production stopped!

--------------------
Mike

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1779
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Made in Germany [Re: MRobinson]
#285508 - 21/07/16 03:49 AM

Quote:

The only really weird aspect of all of this is the use of English script in the MADE IN GERMANY legend. While this would suggest such rifles were destined for export to countries in the British Empire and the US, it seems hard to understand why an English script would be used after the US entered the War on the side of the allies in 1941. Why would the German authorities stamp MADE IN GERMANY on an M-S rifle post 1941, assuming there actually were M-S sporting rifles being built post '41?

The label "Made in Germany" was originally introduced in Britain by the Merchandise Marks Act 1887 to denounce non-British products as "inferior". But the idea backfired: Soon "Made in Germany" was regarded as a mark of superior quality in the international markets. German manufacturers proudly applied it not only on wares destined for English speaking countries, but on those for domestic and world wide markets too. Simply there never was a German language synonym. So during WW2 Austrian products were marked "Made in Germany" too, regardless of destination. After WW2 there was some dispute about East German products marked with the prestigious "Made in Germany". The West German federal high courts then ruled: As the GDR is in Germany too, their wares have the right to mark their products so too. Only then some manufacturers started to mark their wares "Made in West Germany" or, even later "Made in GDR". One exception: Some pre-WW1 Suhl made guns were marked "Made in Prussia" instead of the more generic "Made in Germany". This was meant to distinguish the "high grade" guns made in Suhl, Prussia, from the ones made by the cheapos in near by Zella – Mehlis, Duchy Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Similar to British guns with a London address being more regarded than those marked Birmingham.

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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
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Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand

Re: Made in Germany [Re: kuduae]
#285512 - 21/07/16 08:15 AM

Good explanation. Thank you.

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Louis
.375 member

Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France

Re: Made in Germany [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
#289348 - 24/10/16 02:59 AM

Dear All

I would like to share with you photos of my recently acquired Mannlicher Schoenauer M.1924, which was imported from Austria. The rifle is in caliber 7x64 and is fitted with a Bohler Antinit barrel, a stock with an adjustable cheek piece, and a Swarowski Habicht Nova 6x42 rifle scope.

This rifle is a ‘Made in Germany’ model, bearing at the same time the ‘NPv’ Vienna Proof House 1928 marks (the rifle may have been produced in 1928 and subsequently remained in factory as stock) and the 1939 (‘.39’) mark. The inner face of the barrel also bears a marking consisting in an overlapping E and V (according to online information, this is the Vienna proof mark for multi-barrelled rifles since 1891), which I never saw on any of the pre-1924 rifles I handled previously.

The left side of the action bears the marking ‘Waffenfabrik Steyr’, the post-Anschluss version of the ‘Steyr Werke A.G.’ that prevailed from 1927 to 1938.

The stock has an adjustable cheek piece and the butt is the standard steel plate with trap one.

The rifle is fitted with a Swarowski Habicht Nova 6x42 mounted with German claw-mounts.

This rifle is in really mint condition ; I now need to test it on the range before taking it out for hunting.

Best regards.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2395
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: Made in Germany [Re: Louis]
#289349 - 24/10/16 06:06 AM

Absolutely superb, what a lovely looking rifle. Very well done, it will be a joy to hunt with.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1779
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Made in Germany [Re: Louis]
#289351 - 24/10/16 07:41 AM

Quote:

This rifle is a ‘Made in Germany’ model, bearing at the same time the ‘NPv’ Vienna Proof House 1928 marks (the rifle may have been produced in 1928 and subsequently remained in factory as stock) and the 1939 (‘.39’) mark.

The combination of "Made in Germany" and Austrian NPv or NPf proofmarks is not unusual. In fact this alone dates a gun to 1938 – 39. After Austria was annected (with much applause by many Austrians, a fact now forgotten by them) by the 3rd Reich on March 12, 1938, not everything changed immediately. A new German proof law was already worked on. So the former Austrian proofhouses, Vienna and Ferlach, continued to use their procedures and stamps until the new, 1939 law, proof rules became valid on April 1, 1940. The .39 date was not applied by the Steyr factory, but by the proofhouse. Only from then on guns made in former Austria were marked with the German eagle/N proofmarks and the German month+year dates. So your rifle was not sitting in stock, already proofed, since the 1920s, but was assembled and proofed in 1939.

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Louis
.375 member

Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France

Re: Made in Germany [Re: kuduae]
#289367 - 24/10/16 08:36 PM

Thank you very much Waidmannsheil and Kuduae.
Best regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1364
Loc: Alaska

Re: Made in Germany [Re: Louis]
#289372 - 25/10/16 03:20 AM

does someone sell the adjustable cheekpiece mechanism?

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lonewulf
.300 member

Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand

Re: Made in Germany [Re: casper50]
#289395 - 25/10/16 01:05 PM

Lovely example. A rifle like that really enhances the hunting experience.

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BrittanyMan
.224 member

Reged: 31/05/16
Posts: 7
Loc: Midwest USA

Re: Made in Germany [Re: lonewulf]
#289405 - 26/10/16 01:09 AM

Louis,

Outstanding M/S. The perfect rifle & scope combination for use from a Hoch Sitz.

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HistoricBore
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Reged: 28/09/11
Posts: 224
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: Made in Germany [Re: BrittanyMan]
#289413 - 26/10/16 05:43 AM

My 'Made in Germany' M-Sch. 1903 is serial number 25,68x and I believe was 'liberated' or even bought new(?) by a British officer. I have never taken the woodwork apart to look for the proof marks....

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Louis
.375 member

Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France

Re: Made in Germany [Re: HistoricBore]
#289478 - 27/10/16 05:33 PM

Casper 50, I don't know of anybody selling such a cheek piece mechanism.
Lonewulf, BrittanyMan & Historic Bore, thank you for your replies.
Regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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