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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245358 - 10/04/14 02:19 AM

Should this thread be moved to Double Rifles?

Please advise.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245363 - 10/04/14 02:57 AM

no,this are mostly double guns and some of them combinations guns and double guns also


here is another of the mysterious double guns with "Cal: d Schlusssp: 0.71"
serial number 5729
its clear that this is not for the 0,70" Randschlussspiegel cartridge I think it shoot a paper cartridge, the 0,71" Schlussspiegel" cartridge with some kind of wad in the end. this wad will be pressed against the breech when fired and obturate the barrel. when loading again this Schlusspiegel was removed with a hook by hand or with the next cartridge fired out of the barrel.




















http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7732807


tinker

and when you look at the tip of the forearm its different from the common gun and looks like having a hole. I am sure there was ramrod for this gun also not for loading the gun but for remove the paper cartridge if not fired after the hunt.



you can see the ramrod here in the illustration



anyway it shoots the same cartridge like number 7506 above


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:01 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245573 - 12/04/14 12:56 PM

serial number 8591 and 0,74"







sold by HH in 2007 http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:02 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245914 - 17/04/14 05:18 AM

a very early Dreyse double gun - serial number 272
described as a "20ga" a gun that shows all features of later double guns and is made in the early 1860s

you see the ramrod for removing the paper cartridge






http://www.icollector.com/Dreyse-Side-by-Side-Double-Barrel-Needle-Fire-Shotgun_i9753454

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:03 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245915 - 17/04/14 05:34 AM

gun number 3855


the wooden ramrod point to one of the "old model" guns still made after the introduction of the Randschlußpatrone we had seen was made with gun number 2488 or earlier. the " top-rib inlaid in gold 'E. SCHWIERING WEISSENFELS'" was the gunmaker who sold this gun, no doubt.
what is described here as 14 ga is probably a bigger round than the 0,71" Schlußspiegel cartridge.




"Description: E. SCHWIERING, WEISSENFELS
A 14-BORE NEEDLE-FIRE DOUBLE-BARRELLED SPORTING-GUN, MODEL 'DREYSE PATENT', serial no 3855,
circa 1865, with 29 1/4in. fine-twist damascus barrels, the top-rib inlaid in gold with 'E. SCHWIERING WEISSENFELS', the breech block inlaid with gold and silver open scrolls and bands, walnut half-stock chequered at wrist (old repair to one side), raised cheek-piece, long spurred, engraved heel-plate, horn trigger guard, the trigger-plate and swinging under-lever engraved with loose scroll on a stippled background, wood under-barrel ramrod, iron parts brushed bright."
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/e.-schwiering,-weissenfels-a-14-bore-needle-fire-939-c-30a4ce06bc

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:03 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245916 - 17/04/14 05:52 AM

gun number 6036
0,70" and NITRO PROOFED, the gun was maybe changed for center fire priming by using short firing pins instead of the long needles. the Randschlussspiegel case was available with common center fire primer in 1904 by RMS Sömmerda. in any case this gun was not build for common Lancaster shot shells when new but its also so possible it was rechambered for such a cartridge like the 0,74" with 14ga chamber in my neighborhood.

"Gun retains a pleasing patina overall with most of the original damascus pattern still nice and crisp. Silver lettering on the barrel and inlays on the sides of the receiver are all present. Nitro proofed. Horn trigger guard is complete. Bores have a few very minor pits. Good working order. There is a very old repair to the toe of the stock. Barrels are roughly 29 inches long. Stock is fine with a minor crack under the opening lever and some minor dings. Engraving is sharp on all parts. This is a beautiful older gun. This gun was originally a needle fire that was converted to be used with standard center fire catridges. Made in Germany. Please see pictures. Serial number is 6036"












































http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11941338/g...0-gauge-shotgun

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:04 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245944 - 17/04/14 04:14 PM

a very interesting hunting rifle serial number 2798
Cal. d. Zdsn. 0.60''-5/24 Pulv - I dont find an answer for "Zdsn" but the sice of the receiver and 0,60" makes me thinking its for the prussian military cartridge


the bolt close with a cone over the barrel and the bolt handle have the typical slant position of the military rifle. but look at the bolt closly there are rear locking lugs and if this is realy the case the action is very advanced.
if this is in the serial numbers of the hunting guns(?) it will be made around 1870/71.
you see parts on this rifle coming from the double gun line.


"Dreyse - Gentleman’s Sporting Rifle, Antique, approx 1850s, Single shot bolt action Dreyse needle fire sporting rifle - 27.25" swamped octagon barrel, dovetail blade front, adjustable rear sight - walnut stock - legible markings - pleasing even patina on barrel with small spots of rust that might be carefully cleaned; platinum ring at muzzle. Frame, bolt handle, butt plate, escutcheons, ornate patch box, and trigger guard are all soft gray German silver with good quality period scroll engraving. Barrel marked ''v. Dreyse. Sommerda.''; right side frame ''Cal. d. Zdsn. 0.60''-5/24 Pulv.'' Horn flared nose cap and trigger guard extension. Sound full length stock shows usage marks and sharp checkering, Double set trigger, engraved length on bolt for replacement needle. (7th jpeg) Matching numbers on Bolt Receiver sights and barrel. Excellent Working condition. SN 2798 ... "
















http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10365597/g...ble-set-trigger


here is a rare example of a sporter made probably by a german gunsmith in the 1880s. lookslike a octagonal barrel and double set trigger so a M 65 Jägerbüchse was sporterized.






http://www.gundigest.com/military-firearms/the-needle-gun-started-it-all

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:05 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #246116 - 21/04/14 09:06 PM

Lancaster,

We owe you a debt of gratitude for the interesting topics you bring to this forum and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience.

Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: CptCurl]
      #246127 - 22/04/14 12:29 AM

no, I have to thank for using the forum as some kind of writing desk where I can sort my stuff and establish some order.
the "knowledge" coming with using the possibilities of the internet and most important when becoming some overview over the problems.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/04/14 12:31 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: CptCurl]
      #246139 - 22/04/14 02:27 AM

Quote:

Lancaster,

We owe you a debt of gratitude for the interesting topics you bring to this forum and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience.

Thanks,
Curl




I 100% agree.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: NitroX]
      #246142 - 22/04/14 02:34 AM

Always big thanks to Lancaster!

Each topic from his desk is like a vacation - that I can return to at ant time.


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #246204 - 22/04/14 09:03 PM

There's one in the Australian Arms Auction this coming month.
In keeping with the above thanks - Thanks Lancaster. I would never have been able to appreciate this gun without having seen this thread and learnt about them because of you. Heck, now i'd love to own one some day, but a US trip looms in the future that is far more important

Heres the description:

#299 (for those interested)

F.V. DREYSE D/B NEEDLE FIRE SHOTGUN: 16G; 29" barrels; f. bores; top rib marked F.V.DREYSE SOMMERDA; silver inlay to breech; forward activating lever inlaid with game scene; bird; traditional horn extended t/guard; to load lever swivels to the left & barrels traverse to the right; vg profiles; clear address, inlay & engraving; soft lt brown finish to barrel, breech & fittings; g. stock with chequered wrist & cheek pc; all complete; gwo & cond. C.1880 #14786 L/R

Estimate is (AU): $600-$900.

And of course, the image:



--------------------
.

Edited by CptCurl (25/04/14 08:28 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #246272 - 23/04/14 04:21 PM

my thank s for your interest and for your help
please make me aware of any Dreyse hunting gun you see because it will be one piece more of the puzzle.

600-900 aus. dollar will be a good price, if described as a 16 ga its probably a 0,74" and with the 14000 serial number I put this in the late 1870s.
hope I find the time this year to make something about reloading for the two most common cartridges the 0,70" and the 0,74". actually its very simple and depending on your gun law its maybe possible to change the gun for the common center fire priming. just for the case you dont want to play with the more complicated needle fire priming. but what means complicated there is no rocket science.
under my own gunlaw here I hold them as needle fire guns because they are licence free.
in the end you got the Randschlusspiegel cartridges with needle fire and center fire primer so it was a common modification beside of the guns made for our center fire shotgun shells you find out by the cartridge ectractor.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (23/04/14 04:39 PM)


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #246291 - 23/04/14 07:43 PM

Quote:

my thank s for your interest and for your help
please make me aware of any Dreyse hunting gun you see because it will be one piece more of the puzzle.





1. Thanks for sparking our interest in these fascinating old arms.

2. Only if you make us aware also Loving this thread and keen for more. Keep posting gold, sir.

--------------------
.


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #247076 - 07/05/14 01:06 PM

The Dreyse i posted sold for $700 AUS.

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #248201 - 30/05/14 10:15 PM

sold by Hermann Historica
combination gun, right barrel full rifled, missing the ramrod
this was for the old Schlußspiegel cartridge without rim and having of course no extractor hooks


.
.
.



a double gun serial number 3375, stell barrels and 14,5mm caliber what could be the 0,59" Randschlußspiegel cartridge




.
.
.

17mm so probably 0,70" Randschlußspiegel double gun with later blued damscus stell barrels







http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

.
.
.



this 16 ga "Dreyse" could be one of the late break action guns made before 1895 if realy a Dreyse





http://www.liveauctionworld.com/Engraved...otgun_i15312663

.
.
.

for whatever reason Bonhams had this pic of a 2004 auction online





with this description" A Prussian Dreyse Patent 40-Bore Breech-Loading Needle-Fire Rifle
By F. Dreyse, Sömmerda, No. 1263, Circa 1880"
think it dont mean the double gun in the middle but the unknown bolt action below now the second rifle of this type I have found. a 40 bore must be something around a 10mm caliber.
the double gun in the middle could be one of the few chambered for center fire cartridges because it have no hooks and a standing rear sight


http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11257/lot/175/

.
.
.

serial number 12181 in 0,70" found its way to russia
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/1/280940.html
















.
.
.

16 ga double gun and combination gun
serial number 23978 in 16 ga with the Rotationsstück for the right barrel
http://www.euroarms.net/Photo_SS_Dreyse/pages/DREYSE%20SS%20CAL16_51.htm
































http://www.euroarms.net/Photo_SS_Dreyse/pages/DREYSE%20SS%20CAL16_51.htm


Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:15 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #248203 - 30/05/14 10:39 PM

single shot rifle in 10,5x74R (? maybe a typo and its a 10,5x47R ) with octagonal barrel
serial number 302 what dont fit into my theory that all hunting guns are in one serial number range
it have crown + "V" proof what puts it into the early 1890s. I think it was made in this years when Dreyse was in decline and they use everything laying around.


http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

it looks like the action of a Baden customs needle fire rifle made after the war of 1870/71 and still in use up to 1900 when it was replaced by Haenel made M 88 carbines




possible Dreyse was using old parts for this hunting rifle, rare and interesting single shot I wish to have it


.
.
no, think I have find it
here is a similar experimental dreyse rifle in 11,2x60R
smooth barrel with roatationskammer made in 1874/75 when first problems with the Mauser 71 occur





http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
so the hunting rifle above may be build with a receiver left over from this trials but its clear the Baden customs rifle was the starting point

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:16 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #248204 - 30/05/14 11:17 PM

this mysterious single shot bolt action have a rear sight



similar to the old needle fire rifle





this stutzen show again similarities





with another dreyse bolt action hunting rifle in 10,5x47R build with a Mauser 71 action



the rifle was made with a set trigger that is scaled down from the M 65 Jägerbüchse double set trigger




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:16 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #248231 - 31/05/14 04:47 AM

this F.v.Dreyse 9mm target pistol looks like the same action



and another one in 6mm Flobert



http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:17 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #249245 - 20/06/14 04:03 AM

found this gun again in the net
now with number: 10012
the gun have V +crown proof, 0,70 Randschlußspiegel cartridge





























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:18 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #249249 - 20/06/14 06:10 AM

Quote:

single shot rifle in 10,5x74R (? maybe a typo and its a 10,5x47R ) with octagonal barrel
serial number 302 what dont fit into my theory that all hunting guns are in one serial number range
it have crown + "V" proof what puts it into the early 1890s. I think it was made in this years when Dreyse was in decline and they use everything laying around.


http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

it looks like the action of a Baden customs needle fire rifle made after the war of 1870/71 and still in use up to 1900 when it was replaced by Haenel made M 88 carbines




possible Dreyse was using old parts for this hunting rifle, rare and interesting single shot I wish to have it


.
.
no, think I have find it
here is a similar experimental dreyse rifle in 11,2x60R
smooth barrel with roatationskammer made in 1874/75 when first problems with the Mauser 71 occur





http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
so the hunting rifle above may be build with a receiver left over from this trials but its clear the Baden customs rifle was the starting point




This is the bolt action design Franz von Dreyse submitted for adoption as the new military rifle of the German Army in 1871. As we all know, the Mauser M71 design was chosen instead.




Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:19 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #251710 - 07/08/14 07:32 PM

the dorotheum in vienna have another of this late needle fire customs rifles for sale
http://www.dorotheum.com/auktion-detail/...d0dfcdccc6240a9



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:41 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #251712 - 07/08/14 08:00 PM





15A DREYSE DBL. COMBINATION RIFLE SHOTGUN, from the 1800 s, very early gun & probably one of the first self contained cartridge rifles made, 11 MM & 16 ga., 26 bbls., light silver engraving inlays on the rear part of the bbl. Also on the bottom of the lever that slides side ways to break open gun, silver fox inlay on this lever, horn trigger guard, 2 triggers, checkered cheek rest stock with original metal buttplate, sling swivels, top of rib marked F.V. Dreyse Sommerda , adjustable rear sight, silver bead front sight, good wood with old crack near wrist has been repaired, checkering is nice & sharp, 95% blue starting to turn brown, no pitting, real nice condition, VG to exc. bores, loads by pulling rearward on the lever underneath the forend, bbl. slides forward & then slides to the right exposing chambers. $2500

http://www.goergensgunshop.com/index.php?p=1_9

a very unusual long metal forend on this combination gun, think it must be for metallic cartridges/paper hulls

will try to get more pics and the serial number

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:42 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #251714 - 07/08/14 08:30 PM

to bad only such pic survive



"A RARE SIDE-OPENING PATENT 12-BORE HAMMERLESS GUN BY F. von DREYSE (SMMERDA), NO. 33290
The pull-back rotary-underlever opening action with initial forward-sliding barrel action, the action face with double bosses, backlocks, cocking-indicators, best bold foliate-scroll engraving, lever-safety, figured stock with semi-pistolgrip and butt-plate, sling-swivels, the browned twist barrels with game-rib and silver-inlaid maker's signature
Weight 7lb. 1oz., 14in. pull, 30in. barrels, approx. I.C. (relieved) and .5/8 choke, 2in. chambers, Black Powder proof"

http://www.christies.com/lotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=1374655

you see its a very late made gun with its 33290 number for the common 12 ga paper cartridge with complete different looks but the familar forward sliding barrel action

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:42 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #251985 - 12/08/14 03:51 PM

Quote:





15A DREYSE DBL. COMBINATION RIFLE SHOTGUN, from the 1800 s, very early gun & probably one of the first self contained cartridge rifles made, 11 MM & 16 ga., 26 bbls., light silver engraving inlays on the rear part of the bbl. Also on the bottom of the lever that slides side ways to break open gun, silver fox inlay on this lever, horn trigger guard, 2 triggers, checkered cheek rest stock with original metal buttplate, sling swivels, top of rib marked F.V. Dreyse Sommerda , adjustable rear sight, silver bead front sight, good wood with old crack near wrist has been repaired, checkering is nice & sharp, 95% blue starting to turn brown, no pitting, real nice condition, VG to exc. bores, loads by pulling rearward on the lever underneath the forend, bbl. slides forward & then slides to the right exposing chambers. $2500

http://www.goergensgunshop.com/index.php?p=1_9

a very unusual long metal forend on this combination gun, think it must be for metallic cartridges/paper hulls

will try to get more pics and the serial number




get some pics




caliber marking completly gone or was never there





number 15247



the new to me long steel forend tip with the well known fox on the lever

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:43 PM)


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