vapodog
.300 member
Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
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I have an article by Simon Everett that documents two new Holland and Holland cartridges. First is the .400 H & H magnum which is a .416 diameter bullet from the .375 H & H case at about 2,375'/sec (another .416 Rem Mag so to speak) It's factory loaded with Woodleigh 400 grain bullets.
The second new round is the .465 H & H magnum is not yet released because load developement is still in the works. The author doesn't say so but it seems the .465 H & H is another .470 capstick or .458 Lott with a .465 bullet.
Ft-Lb energy seem to run about 4160 for the .375, 5,000 for the .400 and 6,000 with the .465.
I'm I the only one that's asking why????? Is this purely a "class" thing?
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bonanza
.400 member
Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
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Yes!
Why would you buy an $40,000 H&H rifle only to shoot a "stinking" remington cartridge. I would want a real H&H in mine 
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"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.
"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus
"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."
"Yo! Mr. White"
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DPhillips
.375 member
Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
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vapodog,
I believe the 400 H&H uses a .411" bullet and is based on the 375 H&H case. The 465 uses the 460 Wby Mag case, if I'm not mistaken.
We have a member here, Castoff (ie John Ricks) that has worked with the 400 H&H.
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vapodog
.300 member
Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
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Dphillips, I too originally thought the .400 H&H was using a .411 bullet but this article clearly states it's .416 and that too could be a typo error.....anyway you cut the cake it's a .416 Remington with a different headstamp.
The .465 is totally new to me and the case used is not mentioned in this article. I just visited their website and see that they have guns for sale in both chamberings but no further info on the cartridges.
Any idea where I can find the price of Ammo?
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butchloc
.300 member
Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 230
Loc: faribault mn
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i believe this is called business. once you sell the guy the car, all the accessories add up. I don't even want to know the price of the ammo.
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500Nitro
.450 member
Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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I think you might find that it's a typo error and it is a .411" bullet.
The 465 uses a .468" diameter bullet - the same as the 500/465.
Any idea where I can find the price of Ammo?
Call Holland & Holland as I think this is the only place it can be purchased.
As to why ?, why not, the English gun trade has often worked on proprietary cartridges
and with the type of customers Holland's have, price doesn't matter.
500 Nitro
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DPhillips
.375 member
Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
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vapodog,
There have been several articles written on the 400 and 465 since the announcement about a year or more ago. Jim Dodd has been in contact with H&H during testing and proofing of the new cartridges. I believe Jim wrote an article for African Hunter last year giving more specifics on the concept, design, and testing of these two.
Basically what H&H wanted to do with the 400 is give it the same effect on game at 100 yards that the 375 H&H has at the muzzle. The 400 H&H has a long neck and very sloped shoulders designed so the 400 grain 400 Woodleighs would not protrude into the powder space and pressures be kept down.
Whether the cartridge does as H&H claims or if it will ever see any popularity is for more brilliant minds than mine and nimbler tongues. It would have been an interesting cartridge so many decades earlier, but does not really offer anything that isn't already covered by the 416 Remington, except to use .411" bullets which are more limited in variety and often harder to comeby.
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vapodog
.300 member
Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
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DPhillips
In reply to:
It would have been an interesting cartridge so many decades earlier, but does not really offer anything that isn't already covered by the 416 Remington,
Exactly .....thank you.....and it seems to me to be nothing more than a "class" thing.
The idea of a .400 H&H to go with my .300 H&H and .375 H&H was appealing....but the more of it I see the more turned off I am.
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EricD
.416 member
Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
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In reply to:
Exactly .....thank you.....and it seems to me to be nothing more than a "class" thing.
I think you're probably pretty close the the truth here.
Erik
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DPhillips
.375 member
Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
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I don't think it is necessarily a class issue. I think H&H saw a void in their lineup, especially in bolt action rifle chamberings and wanted to fill it for their customers. As soon as the cartridge design is accepted by the European testing standard organization (I don't remember the name or acronym) the specs will hit the street and reamers will be made, bought and sold for folks that want to chamber their rifles to something different. I don't think H&H has ever come out and said that the 400 is better than Remington's 416, just that THEY were offering something with the performance that some may be interested in. Of course, there's a price tag associated with all H&H products, so we argue the same class warfare on everything they produce if we are to argue that about the cartridge. Bolt guns, double rifles, etc...
I suppose if I wanted (or could afford) a new bolt action rifle from H&H and chambered for something similar to the 400 or 465, I can't see why they would not be a viable option. I don't think H&H did this to thumb their nose at anyone or to diminish the other commercial cartridges out there. No different than Remington bringing out a cartridge with their moniker on it.
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EricD
.416 member
Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
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I agree that H&H wouldn't bring out these new cartridges to thumb their nose at anyone, or to diminish the other commercial cartridges available. That would be pointless.
But I do think that they businesswise might feel that bringing out "special" cartridges aimed towards H&H clients might be a good idea, as some of these clients might like the fact that it's a cartridge that is a bit "exclusive", and one that not "everyone" will have. At least for a while. Just a guess, and I might be wrong!
Incidentally, I've been to the H&H showroom in London a couple of times, and have been treated with the utmost respect. Unlike the treatment I've received from some "lesser" establishments, where a few have looked down their noses as if we were an unwanted hassle... This is of course wise of H&H, as one never knows today who has money, and who doesn't, by their appearance alone. So H&H has a little star in my book.
Erik
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40525
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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The reason we don't hear about oodles of .400 and .465 H&H's around is because there probably aren't many.
They are most likely quietly making a few rifles for their clients who request them. For some very respectable prices too.
They certainly do list the calibres on their websites for a custom made bolt action:
http://www.hollandandholland.com/~newyork/newguns/bolt-action-mag-rifle.htm
The fact that 'Remchester' is not chambering the cartridges and will never do so, probably doesn't phase H&H at all. In fact I am sure they like the fact.
As long as brass is available and dies and maybe loaded ammo I am sure they will continue.
Just because you don't see as many Morgan cars around as Toyotas doesn't mean they aren't a successful product for the manufacturer.
Personally I really dislike any cartridge with the name "Remington" in it. I think a .400 H&H Mag in a custom rifle (non H&H rifle and non H&H price tag) would be cool. Just because not one else has one.
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John aka NitroX
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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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bonanza
.400 member
Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
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"Incidentally, I've been to the H&H showroom in London a couple of times, and have been treated with the utmost respect. Unlike the treatment I've received from some "lesser" establishments, where a few have looked down their noses as if we were an unwanted hassle... This is of course wise of H&H, as one never knows today who has money, and who doesn't, by their appearance alone. So H&H has a little star in my book."
I've been to Purdy and H&H in London, both were very accomdating.
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"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.
"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus
"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."
"Yo! Mr. White"
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pwm
.300 member
Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
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someone here like to know prices, W.Romey here in Krautland list it:400H&H box with 5 softpoint48 euro, fullmetall 57 euro and for the 465H&H 5 softpoint 69 euro, fullmetall84 euro.
if you compared it with other romey cartridges like 404 jefferey( 47 and 58 euro) and 470NE (63 and 75 euro) its in the same class.
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**DONOTDELETE**
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Could you imagine getting H&H do you a 300 H&H and a 416 Remington instead of a 300 H&H and 400 H&H.
I wonder if the 465 is really based on the 378 Wby case with a taper or is it just close....in the same way that the Remington Ultras are not 404 based, close, but not the same.
Kind of hard seeing the man saying to Sir that it is based on a Wby cartridge!!!!
Mike
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vapodog
.300 member
Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
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Something inside me likes tradition.....especially tradition that is real and works....and that's exactly what the .300 H&H and .375 H&H is...tradition that really works and is so succseeful as to be used the world over.
Also being a guy that loves building guns, the idea of sitting a .400 H&H beside the .300 and .375 in the cabinet is a smile generator. I certainly can't afford the H&H rifle but with a little reloading work, the ammo with the proper H&H headstamp, isn't all that hard to make.....except that my experience with the .404 Jeffery has taught me a little about standardization....... The .416 is a bullet that is easy to live with because it's so commonly produced and in superb qualities. The .411 is not.
It just seems as though H&H don't want to make this cartridge available to the masses as their world wide renown parentage has become.  Oh well....the Jeffy looks fine beside the old traditional H&H chambered guns and they, in turn, look very sweet beside the M-70 in 7 X 57 and .257 Roberts.
The .465 H&H don't interest me in any way as I doubt seriously that I could habdle the recoil.....heavens, the .375 is bad enough!
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**DONOTDELETE**
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I was under the impression that the 400 and 465 were the same bullet diameters as their counterparts in the double rifles, so if it was a 416 H&H then he would have 3 sets of Woodleighs to buy instead of 2 sets.
Mike
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vapodog
.300 member
Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
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NitroX In reply to:
Personally I really dislike any cartridge with the name "Remington" in it.
This is unfortunate as it's got to be difficult to not like the .222, .223, .22-250, 6MM Rem, .25-06, .260, 280, 7MM Mag, 7-08, .416 Mag, as well as the ever popular handgun rounds the .357 Mag, .41 mag and the .44 mag.
American arms companies haven't been terribly successful in introducing new big bore dangerous game rounds and one would be hard pressed to suggest the .458 Winchester has been a good one, however the .416 Rem Mag and the .375 RUM certainly have to be given their credit on their merits.
Remington has produced some dogs as well....5MM rim fire, 8MM mag, 6.5 and .350 Mag, but hind sight is always clear.
What did Remington ever do to you to cause these feelings?????
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**DONOTDELETE**
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vapodog
I think it is more to do with the bigger calibres and it is just not NitroX.
Mike
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pwm
.300 member
Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
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the Romey cartridge is loaded with wooleigh bullets in Horneber brass with a CIP proof. It will be the same ammo but with different headstamp like Holland & Holland have . no doubt, Romey load the the ammo like he do for Westley Richards. Horneber make the brass for him with every headstamp he need and there will be no other difference between. I wonder if H&H sell the ammo for much higher price so nobody can say it is a very exclusive cartridge.
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