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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month
      #246488 - 26/04/14 05:12 PM

A nice looking 8 DR up for auction soon. I think the estimated price is out of this world unless there's something I don't know, but we'll have to see. It is certainly in nice condition and I wonder about it's history, where it's been and what it's done. A pleasure just to view.

Bob

PERRINS&SON

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

Edited by Omnivorous_Bob (26/04/14 05:13 PM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #246490 - 26/04/14 06:07 PM

Nice looking - and that estimate is bonkers.


Thanks for posting it!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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8borerifle
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: tinker]
      #246491 - 26/04/14 09:21 PM

That is a beautiful 8 Bore, it appears to have been recolor hardened, barrels rebrowned and stock refinished. Look at the top picture of the dolls head, the gap at the front indicates that the rifle has been rejointed. Probably done in England as the colors look correct. Way, way overpriced.

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doublecollector
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: 8borerifle]
      #246498 - 27/04/14 12:55 AM

The rifle also has no serial number. That is strange. This rifle was once offered for $100,000
a number of years ago. Later a gun shop on the west coast had it for $50,000. That rifle has
definitely been all redone and not "in the period" as stated by Rock Island. Nice rifle, but
it is NOT worth even close to $55,000. Maybe in the mid twenties. It looks like it has definitely
been tightened up. Maybe the owner has a high reserve on it because he bought it for a ridiculous
price at one time and doesn't want to lose any money. If you throw the commission on top of the hammer price it even gets more expensive.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: doublecollector]
      #246504 - 27/04/14 02:58 AM

Even if restored and not in period what a shooter it would be.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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gatsby
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: doublecollector]
      #246505 - 27/04/14 03:00 AM

Quote:

This rifle was once offered for $100,000
a number of years ago. Later a gun shop on the west coast had it for $50,000. That rifle has
definitely been all redone and not "in the period" as stated by Rock Island. Nice rifle, but
it is NOT worth even close to $55,000. Maybe in the mid twenties. It looks like it has definitely
been tightened up.



Just trying to get a line on 16lb 8bore rifle pricing. Nicely done/redone cased not worth 50k but not worth 25k either or maybe? Had it not been done/redone and not cased would that then drop it into the teens? Didn't a fairly well worn 8 just sell for 33k?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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8borerifle
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: gatsby]
      #246514 - 27/04/14 03:36 AM

A Rodda 8 Bore double rifle sold at a Rock Island auction in December and was gold inlaid with the name and address and it went for less than $22,000.00 It was very much the equal of the Perrins if not better. Hallowell sold it a month later for around $25,000.00. The 8 Bore you mentioned was mine and I hoped it would sell in the 20's. It surprised me at $33,000.00, but it was owned by a famous gun writer at Guns and Ammo and written about in several articles by him. It also was a brass case rifle that was a 7 Bore and was in original condition. The Perrins is indeed a nice rifle, but redoing one to that level knocks out all the serious collectors who want originality. The case does not look original. Champlins had a Manton 8 Bore double rifle for sale for years in the high 30's that was redone and as nice as the Perrins and an 18 pound rifle if I remember. It is not on the site now. In an auction anything can happen, so you never know, it might sell. I have owned (7) 8 Bore double rifles through the years and a friend of mine owns 14 along with (4) Four Bore double rifles. I will be very surprised if it sells.

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gatsby
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: 8borerifle]
      #246518 - 27/04/14 04:17 AM

Certainly mint original guns with all the original accoutrements do sell for a premium.
I know of 3 8 bores that sold over the last couple of years for well over 30k, one paradox just recently, of course it was a Holland. Nice guns but they may have seen some refurbishment.
At what point do refurbishments de- value these big guns?
I am not saying the Perrins is going to sell for 50k. I don't believe that valuation to be fair neither is under 25.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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8borerifle
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: gatsby]
      #246520 - 27/04/14 05:53 AM

Gatsby, that is a good question. Very few English double rifles are all original, most have had the barrels redone and some refinish on the stock. Recolor hardening is the biggest detriment to resale that I can think of, along with a restock. Of course the bore condition is very important. If a rifle were redone in a manor that looks original as to the age, it would be worth more than one brought to new condition in my opinion. I bought a Holland 8 Bore double rifle about 10 years ago that was pitted all over the barrels, action and locks and the stock was sanded below metal and the checkering butchered. After the entire rifle was stoned to remove the pitting and the damascus barrels rebrowned and re-engraved it was restocked. I then sent it to be color hardened. It looked really nice, but I had a hard time selling it for $16,500 a couple of years later as most collectors didn't want it. A wealthy guy bought it to just hang on his wall as a conversation piece! One mistake I made was to restock it with a really good piece of English Walnut. The highly figured wood looked out of place with the border engraved action and locks. Believe me, there are people out there that could take that Perrins and back off the color hardening, age look the stock and thin the barrel browning and you would swear it was original. I guess what I am trying to say is that an original OR an original looking rifle will bring more money than a like as new redo. I am guessing the Perrins would be in the high 20's to low 30's, but that is my opinion. Like a friend said who was trying to sell an overpriced hot rod, "there is a butt for every seat". I really do like the Perrins, but wouldn't think of paying the estimate PLUS 15%.

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TH44
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: 8borerifle]
      #246526 - 27/04/14 07:47 AM

Plus one for 8borerifle - the completely refurbished, especially hammer rifles do not look quite the part

Also they can be aged by a good restorer but that is a LOT of money

Probably made by W & C Scott or Philip Webley retailed (and named) by Perrins

Still a nice rifle

TH44

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gatsby
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: TH44]
      #246531 - 27/04/14 01:42 PM

Quote:

Plus one for 8borerifle - the completely refurbished, especially hammer rifles do not look quite the part

Also they can be aged by a good restorer but that is a LOT of money

Probably made by W & C Scott or Philip Webley retailed (and named) by Perrins

Still a nice rifle

TH44



I don't think this is a Scott gun.
Really these big guns are very rare and special. Take them as you find them; mint, beat or refurbished.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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TH44
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: gatsby]
      #246574 - 28/04/14 08:56 AM

Gatsby - yes, these big guns are rare and special and I really like them, whatever the condition

Do you think that Perrins made lock, stock and (double) barrel?

TH44

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doublecollector
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: TH44]
      #246935 - 04/05/14 10:00 AM

It appears that the Perrins 8 bore did not sell. I watched the auction and there was an
opening bid of $ 47900 and no further bids. I think that the opening bid was made By Rock Island to get the bidding going. There apparently was a reserve on it. If the rifle had sold for the opening bid it would have realized $54,625.00. You might see it again on the next Rock Island Auction. There is no way that that rifle is worth that much.

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gatsby
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: doublecollector]
      #246947 - 04/05/14 02:39 PM

It says lot sold. But I too have seen discrepancies on the RIA online bidding.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: gatsby]
      #246969 - 05/05/14 04:55 AM

We will get to see that rifle Again for sale somewhere. Don`t worry...:-)

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Huvius
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: gatsby]
      #246972 - 05/05/14 05:41 AM

Quote:

It says lot sold. But I too have seen discrepancies on the RIA online bidding.



There sure are!
Last auction, the site said I won all three lots which I bid on but in reality only won one.
A glitch like that makes a lot of room for post auction dealing if you ask me...

I guess if you are really serious about your bid, you better either be there or bid on the phone.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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doublecollector
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: Huvius]
      #247015 - 06/05/14 01:12 PM

If you look up Rock Island's bidding rules you will see that they have the option to bid up a
gun to the reserve in order to help the gun sell. I was watching the auction live on Invaluable Auctions. Of the over 300 items that I followed, the Perrins rifle was the ONLY one that did not say "SOLD" after it crossed the gavel. When I looked some of the guns up later they all said "sold-
prices will added later" except for the Perrin's 8 bore. I am sure that it did not sell at that time. Also, if you ask RIA a question you will get an answer, but in my case when I asked if a rifle was "on the face" they assured me that it was "tight on the face". When the rifle came in it was anything BUT on the face. When you look at their disclamers you will see that they are not responsible if any of their descriptions are incorrect. I guess buyer beware is in order.

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Ash
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: NitroX]
      #247077 - 07/05/14 02:12 PM

Quote:

Even if restored and not in period what a shooter it would be.



+1, and how often do you get a chance to take a gun out that looks and feels (though reading above, if its off face disregard this) as if you just bought it new, like the person who did originally over a century ago. Havent looked into it, but you'd be hard pressed to pick up a new double like this one for under $80k.

--------------------
.

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Watson577
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: Ash]
      #247821 - 24/05/14 10:53 AM

This discussion touches on something that I have been thinking pretty hard about. Last summer I bought a Alexander Henry 8-bore double rifle and I'm struggling with whether to rebrown the barrels or not. The barrels have some minor pitting and no visible Damascus patterns except if you look very closely in the vicinity of the water table. The stock has obviously been refinished since the tang is proud of the wood. I'm not in any hurry but a little work can make this rifle look much better. Maybe I should just leave it alone--just don't know...

Jim

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TH44
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: Watson577]
      #247856 - 25/05/14 10:21 AM

Jim - Difficult dilemma - what is the rest of the rifle like?

If it has genuine original patina, possibly leave it as it is

As you say, the stock has been refinished, what is the condition of the locks? If they have been re case hardened then go for it, but the looks/value of such an item is probably less than a good original but a good quality rebrowning is very attractive

Please do not consider reblueing anything under any circunstances!

Some nice pics would be appreciated by others as well as myself, it would be a pleasure to see such a historical rifle

Just my own opinion of course, you are the one to decide

TH44

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gatsby
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: Watson577]
      #247865 - 25/05/14 01:11 PM

If done properly re finishing the barrels should not effect the value adversely but that's JMO.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Watson577
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: gatsby]
      #247886 - 25/05/14 10:53 PM

TH44,

I don't have any good photos of this rifle yet but you can see it in this magazine article:

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=44&tocid=553

As well as these two Double Gun Journal issues:
DGJ V9-3
DGJ V12-3

Ross Seyfried owned this rifle until last Spring when he sold it to a friend of his. I bought it from that fellow after he responded to a want ad that I placed in the Double Gun Journal. If I remember correctly, you can see some of the corrosion near the muzzles in one of the photos and there are also some minor pits along the right side from where the rifle sat in a gun case without enough oil on it. I think that this rifle is a bit unusual in that it has 3-3/4" chambers and a rifling twist rate of about 1:53". The groove diameters are about .855". I'll have to take some good photos of it sometime.

Regards,

Jim

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TH44
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: Watson577]
      #247900 - 26/05/14 10:04 AM

Jim

I have read the article several times in the past, very good

I do not have the Double Gun Journal so will wait for your pics

The 3-3/4" chambers are the same as my 8 bore H&H Ball Gun that has .825" bore

Good shooting and kind regards

Tony

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Huvius
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: TH44]
      #247902 - 26/05/14 11:10 AM

Champlins has an 8 bore H&H for $42K and, having tried to make a halfherted deal on this particular gun, I can tell you it is fantastic! Wish it could have happened...
Jim, I think you wouldn't be making a mistake with a proper brown on your barrels and a good brown is a thing of beauty especially on big tubes.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Watson577
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Re: Nice 8-bore DR at Rock Island next month [Re: Huvius]
      #247904 - 26/05/14 12:48 PM

Huvius,

I'm leaning towards having the barrels rebrowned since I really like the look of Damascus barrels that are properly finished. I'm also tempted to put a leather covered recoil pad in it. I know that the Silvers pad is correct but the one currently on this rifle is a replacement and I think that it really detracts from the look. I just don't like that orange color--looks too twentieth century to me. That's one thing that can easily be undone if a future owner doesn't like it. Also, a softer pad can be put under leather and that will be a big improvement!

Regards,

Jim

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