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ChrisPer
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Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service
      #243949 - 17/03/14 09:27 PM

I posted this rifle some years back when I joined the forum. After trying it, I found it was seriously cross-eyed and balked at the cost to bring it to standard. Now I think its time.

The rifle is a well-worn Thomas Turner Jones underlever, with non-rebounding hammers, floating firing pins and cross wedge for the forestock. Chambering is in .500/.450 No 1 BP Express 2 3/4".

The first flaw was a crack through the wrist, hidden by glue and freshened checkering. Three of the four fingers of wood between the locks and tangs were coming adrift. I have just collected the rifle from having this repaired by Ken Davis of Perth.

Understand that this is not a museum piece, so my aim is to make it a working rifle and not to perfect it. I had thought this rifle might have been restocked because the wood-to-metal fit was poor at the top tang and there was no rear sling swivel to go with the front one. It has a horn buttplate in fair condition, which is right for its age. Ken thought it may have been the original stock; the poor fit was caused by the fingers of wood coming adrift. Ken used solvents to remove the accumulated oils from the wood which weaken it and make it unable to take glue. He then used machined holes and keyways to add wooden pins and keys to bring the stock into strength and integrity. With the finish, it is not an obvious repair despite being very invasive.







The woodwork changed the relation of the triggers and locks, and that will need correction as what was a perfectly good lock wont stay on cock now. This is likely to be fixed by altering the trigger blades and sear projection.

The other major problem is that the barrels are unsoldered for six inches from the muzzles, and they shoot badly cross-eyed.



Edited by ChrisPer (17/03/14 09:41 PM)

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Ckhobart
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #244167 - 22/03/14 03:56 AM

Hell of a project. Good luck

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DarylS
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: Ckhobart]
      #244170 - 22/03/14 04:09 AM

When a rifle does not have an adjustable trigger, a broken sear is usually the cause of the fail-to-hold at full bent position.
Sometimes the full cock notch is rounded, or debris inside the lock prevents the sear from engaging the notch properly, but a broken or rounded sear nose is usually the problem.

As to the barrels crossing even though they are spread slightly at the muzzles, is that not a sign of too low speed in low speed guns, or too high speed in high speed guns?

Due to this being a black powder rifle ctg. by design and with black powder having more recoil (which effects regulation) at ANY speed compared to smokeless powder, a factory-type black powder charge, perhaps even with lighter bullet, might just recoil-induce the barrels to shoot more parallel. Just a thought.

I'd not shoot them anyway until repaired - but won't they have to be completely separated (taken apart, ribs and all - I'd think) before re-soldering - a nasty job and VERY expensive, I'd imagine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: DarylS]
      #245238 - 08/04/14 08:54 PM

Thanks for that Daryl, I will look out for the problems you describe. I just finished a problem cycle with my muzzleloader I am perhaps inclined to diagnose the change while the stockmaker had it as due to changing wood relationships so I wont assume.

My first thought about the crossing fire was similar to yours, and I bought and adapted a crimp die to make sure the loads were giving their all, and upped the charge to a thoughtful maximum as well; there was no difference in POI. And the crossing is very marked, its right barrel shoots about 6" left at 15 yards and the left about 3" high and 1" right. I can no longer hope that its just a load issue.

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #249998 - 05/07/14 08:35 PM

Progress report: Sorry this is so slow and I have failed to take photos for you of the stock repair. The wood to metal fit of the top tang is immaculate now, unlike the photo above. However, I just had a lovely day visiting Darwin, where I left the rifle with Vic Pedersen to see what he thinks could be done.

My son who lives there took me to try out his own first rifle, a 1916 BSA SMLE. Young-uns - he couldn't help pulling the SMLE mag to load it. I must find him some charger clips, and based on its performance I also have to make him a couple of lead slugs to see what on earth is going on in that bore.

Hope to get an update in a few weeks.

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TH44
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #250099 - 07/07/14 08:50 AM

That is a nice rifle, quite early (lovely percussion type fences, non rebounding bolted locks) and rose and scroll engraving IMHO worth the work

I had a percussion Cape Rifle resoldered (Rib well away, all resoldered and rebrowned) for GBP500 [$850] a couple of years ago, but obviously no regulation issues

Birmingham Black Powder proofs and a relatively modest power cartridge, Daryl's advice as always good re: the lighter bullet

Good luck whatever you choose

TH44

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: TH44]
      #250830 - 21/07/14 08:48 PM

What do people think about the engraving? Should it be cleaned out, eg with ultrasound or brushed acetone - or naval jelly?

Edited by ChrisPer (21/07/14 08:50 PM)

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #251126 - 27/07/14 04:01 PM

Update: Barrels now resoldered and test shots fired. Gunsmith is suggesting 400gn bullets, presumably to get it regulating via more 'boot', but the originals appear to be only 270 gn to a maximum 365gn. With 110gn BP, presumably with a lot more kick than modern BP, that suggests 1800 fps might be maximum. Bit concerned he may overload it, as he says he is regulating a .500 Nitro also. I feel being an older BP proved gun, better to go a near original load and go the hard road of re-wedging and re-soldering. I gave him a free hand but now my book-reading is contradicting it, I am not sure if I should shut up or not.

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underlever
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #251187 - 28/07/14 10:28 AM

My feeling is that your right about the 400 gr bullet being too heavy. I think it is to. I have a early Pape 450-3 1/4 double and it shoots 300 gr bullets very nicely. With yours being the shorter case version I'd make a 300gr. the maximum weight to send through it. Also I'd put good money on it booting the crap out of you with 400gr. bullets as well.
To clean the engraving, just simmer the parts in a caustic solution. You need a steel pot of some kind to do this as alum. etc. will get eaten up. You can make great pots for this job by going to your local tip and selecting a few different shaped Primas type gas bottles. After taking out the bleed plug, cut the top off and your good to go. After simmering in the caustic, boil in clean water a couple of times and everything will be as clean as it can be with all the shit out of the engraving. A light brushing while in the caustic will help move the crap. I just use old tooth brushes. It won't effect any remaining bluing or case colours. DON'T clean the barrels with this method as the caustic solution will eat the solder that of course holds the tubes together.

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: underlever]
      #257420 - 01/12/14 09:38 PM

Update: the work has been completed. Considerable trigger work, followed by resoldering and repeated cut-solder-and-try to regulate.

I am very excited; I fly to Darwin to pick it up on Saturday. The load he chose to regulate it for was 300gn jacketed HP, with 85gn AR2213sc and no filler. 1680 fps and maybe 2"-3" group for the two barrels at 50m.

I am a little shocked at the cost. My fault though; I didn't press for updates as he went along, and I knew it was a costly job when I gave it to him. If it had been quoted at the amount I imagine I could have sold this rifle and together with the quoted money bought a later BPE double that was already shooting together - but this is the path I went on so I am just going to enjoy the results.

This is going to be something good.

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tinker
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #257437 - 02/12/14 03:59 AM

Yes Chris that's the way to go - the course you're already on!
Post photos, and while you're in Darwin, post photos of your hunt!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: tinker]
      #257451 - 02/12/14 09:40 PM

Thanks, wish I had a hunt to post photos from - just travelling home from work with a slight deviation that's all. Here in the PNG Highlands hunting is restricted to the landowners, unless the landowners are chasing each other as happens from time to time.

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #257886 - 15/12/14 05:11 PM

Whooee!
So many ups and downs. The trip to Darwin was great, and my first sight of the rifle I had a great surprise - the barrels are blued, and it looks really sharp!


The stock repairs leave the wood to metal fit beautifully close. The gunsmith has I think cleaned the action metal somewhat brighter and made the engraving clearer.


Notice how the firing pin heads stand up? He has re-sprung them. They were free-floating before.

There is a new, higher foresight. The previous one was much lower. And the leaves of the rear-sight tightened so some very firm intentionality is now needed to raise them.



The muzzles are cleaned bright - initially I thought re-cut, but now I am not sure.


The action or lever was tightened. I have not tested the paper between the breeches and breech face yet, but the lever closes with a lot more effort now and feels very, very solid when fully closed. The lever stops before the centred position.

The engraving on the lever is pretty, but very difficult to see.


A lot of work had to be done on the triggers I believe. Especially as the stockwork left them not as they had been, due to changing lock to trigger bar relationships. The gunsmith discussed removing the fly from one, but I did not end up able to see how their condition now was different to before the stock work started. However there appears to be a packer under the trigger guard behind the rear trigger.

I never liked the half-cock positions - the right one is well to the rear, and left even further so its hard to see that it isn't full-cock. I believe the left hammer is a replacement. Neither hammer is engraved.


A pic showing some of the stock repair work - very hard to see.


Now the important question! How does it shoot? Here is Vic Pedersen's regulated result.


Edited by ChrisPer (15/12/14 08:03 PM)

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #257892 - 15/12/14 07:15 PM

Vic gave me a dozen loaded rounds to test with. The load he was using is 85gns AR2213sc with no filler, pushing a 300gn jacketed projectile at 1680 fps. 215 Mag primers.

I want to be able to use this in BP Cartridge or 'Any BP Double' events so I worked out a duplex load from the guidelines in Graeme Wright's book, 66gn of Wano PPP over 14.7gn of AR2207, and a 300gn cast bullet (Westcast). Again from Wright, I added a double thickness of beeswax foundation sheet (thin and brittle) over the powder. This aims at the power level of a 110gn BP load as usual for this cartridge. Marked the cases with a D on the base in black marker to identify them.

For comparison I tried a load of straight WANO PPP. If I left a little room for wax and seating the bullet I could fit 97 gns of BP so that's what I used. These cases were marked with a 97 in black marker and a line across the base. The Bertram cases are obviously thicker than the old balloon head cases used in BP days, and have lower volume capacity.

Setup was benchrest, holding the barrels in my left hand onto the front rest, and with a low stool so my body was upright.


I warmed up with some scoped .22 groups at 50m (2" ish), then three shots out of my Mannlicher 9.5x57 MS with express sights (5" ish) before starting with the double. I don't want anyone to be unaware that I am a very ordinary shot!

First up I used the NfB load supplied by Vic.
Line up at 50m.
WHAM!! YEEEEEHAH! For crying out loud, this thing has some punch; maybe I should have worn a towel under a jacket. The barrels plucked themselves out of my front hand. I settled in and let a few more go.

The first three shots were 3 at 8 o'clock,1 at 10 o'clock and 6 at 10 o'clock.

Very disappointing. I considered my options, and brought the target from 50m back to 25m. The 25m four shot group is high left centred about 11 0'clock at the edge of the black. R1 was the one in the black. Both these were shot with the bead centred in the TOP of the deep V rearsight.




OK, then I tried the duplex loads. WHAM! these also gave a very satisfactory experience at the butt end. I switched to the bead BOTTOMING in the V of the rearsight.

Not so satisfactory in the group. The wildest low left one was L2.


Finally I tried the straight BP load. Again, very authoritative to shoot. The first two shots are very nicely together but the last two shots missed the paper, presumably above.



Summary: I did not get within a bull's roar of Vic's accuracy, even with his loaded rounds. Conclusion: I need to practice - a lot. Its not at all a brutal rifle but it is bigger than I am used to.

Second, the duplex and BP rounds used a bought, pre-lubed cast projectile that has no track record in these barrels. I believe I should ask around for BP 45-70 shooters and get some purpose-made BP cast bullets with deep grooves and BP-specific lube.

Your suggestions for improving my marksmanship are welcome.

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Rigby270
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #257895 - 15/12/14 08:17 PM

Chris, a great write up, and one which I eagerly await the next update.

I noticed in one of your pictures that you had the barrels resting on a front rest. Are you firing the gun it that position, as this could well have some effect on your point of impact?

--------------------
JH

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: Rigby270]
      #257896 - 15/12/14 08:58 PM

Yes, I gripped the barrels and rested my hand against the rest- I think. Good suggestion. Maybe only some of the time? Next time I will get a sandbag and use it under my forearm.

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DarylS
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #257906 - 16/12/14 04:31 AM

I grip the barrels as if shooting offhand, then rest the back of that barrel holding hand on the bags. This way, I get a good solid rest and do not need a rear bag, tucking the butt into the pectoral muscle just inside of the shoulder as needed.
Does this ctg. say on the head, ".450 #1 Ex."?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: DarylS]
      #257930 - 16/12/14 03:44 PM

Quote:

I grip the barrels as if shooting offhand, then rest the back of that barrel holding hand on the bags. This way, I get a good solid rest and do not need a rear bag, tucking the butt into the pectoral muscle just inside of the shoulder as needed.
Does this ctg. say on the head, ".450 #1 Ex."?



Thanks for that Daryl. I have a lovely little bruise next to my shoulder from the butt in that position, which I am cherishing as a love bite. I am keen to try the rested back of the hand again, but maybe I will start with offhand.

The headstamp of the Bertram Brass is "BB .450 No 1 EXPRESS".

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #258041 - 19/12/14 02:09 AM

Tried again today. New position as below:


Firing:


Resulting target, 25m. of the four, upper two are right barrel, lower two left barrel. Leftmost one of each was fired standing, rightmost of each resting as per first photo.




Some unburnt powder:


My 19yo son had a go:


In recoil:


BP and Duplex loads each fired two, only one on paper. Grim. I will work with the NfB loads some more, then the duplex and BP.

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tinker
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #258045 - 19/12/14 02:53 AM

On your hold of the barrels -- I typically hold further forward, with full wrap around the tubes, standing or sitting or kneeling. I really manhandle them, with just enough gap between my thumb and forefinger tip to see the sights. I keep considerable pressure back into my shoulder and a good cheek press into the stock, eyes low and wide open.

Getting better for you this time?

On the unburnt powder, how tight is the wadding?
How tight is the neck to bullet fit?


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Matabele
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: tinker]
      #258052 - 19/12/14 05:49 AM

Great to see this rifle back at the range!

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ChrisPer
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: Matabele]
      #258063 - 19/12/14 09:05 AM

Thanks for that on the grip Tinker. I found I started for full wrap and found the sight plane is very low, so this is where I ended up. The first time out the barrels pulled up out of my grip so I think this time I was gripping very hard to prevent that. Will try further forward and lift a few weights first.

The loads with unburnt powder are not with any filler, and the necks are not especially tight. I have modified a Lee 45/70 crimp die but it needs some more work. I will improve that for next set of loads.

This target finished the loads Vic did for me. The jacketed bullets I have next are 300gn HP from The Bullet Factory, which have very thin non-bonded jackets suited for light-skinned Australian game. You could garage a bakkie, pickup or ute in the nose! However I might see if I can get some Hornady for testing which I think is what Vic used.

The cast bullets holes in the targets were maybe a bit oval, and I am suspicious that they are not engaging the rifling correctly. May try a gas check type.

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Huvius
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: ChrisPer]
      #258067 - 19/12/14 12:42 PM

You may find that the fired cases will need quite a bit of sizing in order to hold a .458" bullet tightly.
My Westley in 500/450 No.1 Express and my Hughes No.2 both are big necked chambers but shoot .458" bullets so well that I have to give a little pinch at the mouth of the case to hold the bullet firmly, especially cast GG bullets. Your jacketed bullets should hold better though.
What I do to give a bit of a crimp at the mouth is to run the cartridge up into a 30'06 sizing die just enough to give it a little squeeze. Seems to work pretty well although I cannot back the die out enough to have a set maximum so I do it by feel and my best effort to get it consistant on each cartridge.



--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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tinker
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: Huvius]
      #258068 - 19/12/14 01:37 PM


Forget that the forend wood exists.
Grab the barrels tight and forward of the wood. That'll get your head down and your eyes on the sights.

Necks need to be tight.
Crimp will not fix that problem - but crimp is not bad in addition.

I use filler.
I weigh every charge of filler.
I use enough to put a bit of pressure on the powder.
You need consistent ignition.

The Hornady 4502 350gr SNRN is a great bullet.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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AkMike
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Re: Thomas Turner .450 2 3/4" BPE return to service [Re: tinker]
      #258089 - 19/12/14 11:11 PM

Have you run any of these loads thru a chronograph to see where you are at?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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