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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project
#243699 - 13/03/14 02:52 AM

Recently, I started to build my seventh double rifle. I want to have one that is very light-weight, and in a calibre that is legal in my immediate area, where we are not allowed to use a rifle of greater caliber than .277”. I chose the 6.5x57 Rimmed for a number of reasons. First, it’s a very fine cartridge. Second, I found a pair of arsenal-new Swedish M-38 barrels at an attractive price, and which I re-contoured and re-chambered. Third, because I already load for my Sako rifle in calibre .264 Winchester Magnum, I have a large supply of 140 grain Nosler Partition bullets in 6.5/.264 calibre.

The shotgun that I ultimately bought as the “host gun” for this project is a Zabala boxlock, extractor, in .410 bore. I want to end up with both shotgun and rifle barrels, fitted to the one action. Obviously, this entailed making a new mono-block to accept the rifle barrels. Fortunately I have a good friend who owned his own tool and die shop, and whose son took it over upon Peter’s retirement. Using the .410 barrels as a pattern, Peter wrote a CAD/CAM program on his computer. Using that program, plus the latest laser- duplicating technology, they supplied me with the mono-block shown in the accompanying photos.

The dimensions of this mono-block are so close to the original that in only two hours, working with candle, file, and stones, I had it fitted to the circle and on-face as shown in the two photos. I am showing you what CAN be done with modern technology and the right friends. I imagine that the cost to have this kind of job done would probably be cost-prohibitive otherwise, but it CAN be done.

Because the .410 action is so small, and the tolerances so close, I don’t feel comfortable to thread the barrels and the mono-block, as I have always done in the past. I therefore decided to shrink-fit the barrels into the mono-block by shrinking them with liquid nitrogen first. I turned the shanks of the barrels down to within .006” of the .625” bores in the mono-block. I then took them to a local precision-grinding shop and they finished the shanks for me to .626”. The cost to have this done was very reasonable, only $40.The last photo shows a jig that I’ve made up, out of some aluminum bar stock, and two lengths of ¼” threaded rod. I believe that the photo, showing the washers, heavy coil springs, and large nut, is self-explanatory. This will be used to clamp the chilled barrels tightly into the mono-block, as the temperatures normalize. I’m hoping that this will result in a fairly close-fitting seam. More to follow…

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:12 PM)

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Sarg
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243710 - 13/03/14 06:19 AM

That is fantastic, thank you for sharing this with us, cant wait to see more !

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Sarg]
#243717 - 13/03/14 07:33 AM

Nice work. Are you going to leave the join line between barrel and mono-block visible. Several companies are now TIG or laser welding the join so that it becomes invisible after striking up. Laser welding in particular is very good as there is next to no heat and the blueing looks perfect after woods. Keep posting as this looks like a good project. Nice cartridge too.

Waidmannsheil

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There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#243720 - 13/03/14 08:16 AM

Looks great so far! Please keep posting I love to see these kinds of builds.

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kamilaroi
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#243721 - 13/03/14 10:24 AM

outstanding stuff!

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Ron_Vella
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: kamilaroi]
#243724 - 13/03/14 11:33 AM

W,
I'll be very honest, a faint demarcation line does not really bother me. I build these guns to shoot them and to hunt them, not for re-sale. On my .450 #2 NE, 9.3x74R, and .303 British doubles, where I screwed the barrels into the mono-blocks, after polishing and rust bluing, the seam is virtually invisible. In many cases, until I have pointed it out to a viewer, they have not even been aware that there is a seam there.

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Ckhobart
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243731 - 13/03/14 04:34 PM

Verrry cool.

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HeymSR20
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ckhobart]
#243755 - 14/03/14 01:22 AM

Like what you are doing. I've an old English double 410 by WJ Jeffery. Barrels very pitted and one day it will become a double rifle. Given the size of the action will you have enough wall thickness to withstand the pressures of the 6.5x57r ? Did you think about doing a shoe lump joint rather than a mono block so that you can keep plenty of barrel thickness. This is the approach Heym take - http://www.heymusa.com/heym_tech.htm. No criticism implied or intended - just a question.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: HeymSR20]
#243774 - 14/03/14 06:39 AM

Ron said: "Because the .410 action is so small, and the tolerances so close, I don’t feel comfortable to thread the barrels and the mono-block, as I have always done in the past. I therefore decided to shrink-fit the barrels into the mono-block by shrinking them with liquid nitrogen"
_______________________________
You certainly are not afraid of innovation. I would have simply soldered them in place, while keeping the solder away from the seam area. Soldering them alone; not threading, works because the soldered surface is so large. I have used half threads/half soldered, and fully soldered; not threaded at all, both systems worked. Now, I am anxious to see how liquid nitrogen tight shrink fitting works.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: doubleriflejack]
#243775 - 14/03/14 06:48 AM

Beretta have even used a Loctite type product on some of their models to attach the barrels to the mono-block.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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transvaal
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Loc: South Carolina

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#243794 - 14/03/14 11:27 AM

Ron;

Per comments of HeymSR20 above: What is the thickness of the monobloc at the breech end. If my calculations are correct the 6.5x 57R cartridge chamber diameter at the base is about .470" and your barrel stub OD is .626" leaving you wall thickness of .156" at the breech. With the monobloc under compression with the shrink fit, are you depending upon the monobloc to add strength to compensate for the lack of substantial wall thickness for the cartridge dimensions? Additionally, are you planning on the typical 48,000 or so psi for loading the 6.5x 57R?

Edited by transvaal (14/03/14 01:37 PM)

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Birdhunter50
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: transvaal]
#243819 - 15/03/14 05:15 AM

Ron,
I would not want to try and build anything much bigger on a 410 frame than a .22 Hornet. Your barrel stub walls are only goiung to be .078" thick and that is if you get everything just right. If I HAD to do this conversion, I would bevel all the joined areas front and back, down at a 45 degree angle and have it filled in with a micro TIG welder. That way if you do not get all the holding strength by shrink fitting the barrels to the monoblock, the weld will add enough to make sure you don't blow out a barrel.
I think that actually doubleriflejack has the right idea, make them a slip fit and solder them in with High Force 44. I'm still unconvinced that the monoblock will stand up to this much pressure. Are you planning to download this somewhat? Bob

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Dumprat
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Birdhunter50]
#243820 - 15/03/14 06:21 AM

I for one think he is on the right track. The shrink fit has huge holding force. Well beyond what solder can achieve. And welding can create a weak point that will not visible unless X Ray is used. An end cap weld could be used for redundancy but is not needed. .

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Dumprat]
#243836 - 15/03/14 01:52 PM

Gentlemen, not be be "snippy", but I'm not a "new boy on the block". I've built 6 double rifles already. I have fired many thousands of rounds through those rifles safely. I understand metallurgy, hoop strength, etc. What is amusing is that there are critical posts here from guys who have been sending me personal e-mails for years, asking my advice on how to do this job. Suddenly, everybody's an expert! The combined wall thickness of my mono-block and the barrel stubs is .245", most of that being the best, modern, 4140 steel. After shrink-fitting the barrels into the mono-block, I had their rear faces micro-tigged to the mono-block, so nothing short of dynamite is going to move them. My regulation load is a 140 grain Nosler Partition at 2200 fps. That load will produce well under 40,000 psi. My proof loads are the same bullet at 2650 fps. Three of those loads, fired remotely through each barrel, will tell the tale. I'll post some more photos in a day or two when I have the time.

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Dumprat
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243841 - 15/03/14 04:40 PM

Well put. Most people out the realm of engineers and some machinists don't fully understand the forces and stresses the metal is under.

Keep on doing what you are doing. If you feel the need to put the naysayers to bed, after proofing get the mono block run up on a manga flux bench. All the bullshit ends there. Fusions, inclusions,voids, cracks all show up under the black light.

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dpcd67
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Dumprat]
#243867 - 16/03/14 04:26 AM

Very nice; good job.

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tinker
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: dpcd67]
#243869 - 16/03/14 05:07 AM

Wow

Tiny
Can't wait to see it done!

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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4seventy
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243898 - 16/03/14 03:13 PM

Ron,
Thankyou for the photos and description on your seventh DR build!
This one will be so trim, and should be a delight to use when completed.
That's a neat way of fitting the barrels to the monobloc.
I'm guessing that now that you have a faster easier way to produce a monobloc with the CadCam, that you are probably already thinking of number 8 double rifle project.
Please do post some more photos when you get the chance, as like always, there are many here including myself who will really enjoy following the build.

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NitroX
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243902 - 16/03/14 04:43 PM

Quote:

I have a large supply of 140 grain Nosler Partition bullets in 6.5/.264 calibre.

Hi Ron,

Looking forward to your build progress and photos, hint.

A question re your intended projectiles to use. It is obvious then, you don't think the solid shank in the partition bullets to have an effect on your barrels or solder in the future then? Any comments on that? Perhaps the barrel profile you are using is thicker than usual?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: NitroX]
#243915 - 17/03/14 03:29 AM

John - as to the solid web section of a Partition bullet creating extra hoop stress inside the bores, possibly damaging the soldering, would not the bullet be engraved at the breech end of the barrel and properly fitted to the grooves prior to the 'load' reaching full pressure anyway? This, of course, is due to the ctg. developing maximum normal pressures some inches down the bore, longer for slower powders, close for faster ones.

Loads developed for the bullet in question would not produce any more pressure than the person who loaded them, wanted them to produce. Once fully engraved, I cannot "see" how the hoop stress would be continual during it's trip down the tube - afterall it is then the proper size and not attempting to expand against the lands. It is possible the web of a partition bullet could cause a more rapid climb in pressure at the breech as the powder charges gasses expand, however that trend would be taken in stride with normal safe handloading practices of starting low and developing the loads from the start.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Shotgunlover
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#243916 - 17/03/14 03:42 AM

Shrinking the tubes, as opposed to expanding the monobloc with heat, is a fascinating variation on the Cannons Frettes method. Would it make any practical difference regarding the tube being shrunk in and then expanding to contact the monobloc rather than the other way round?

Really impressive is the surface finish quality on the monobloc. Is this surface finished-polished after the machining or is it direct from the machining? It looks like it has been beadblasted but that might be the photo quality.

I would love to get that kind of result from machining alone!

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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Ron_Vella
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Shotgunlover]
#243923 - 17/03/14 05:02 AM

John, In fact, these are the lightest barrels that I have ever done, only .440" at the muzzles. I am taking every possible step to get this rifle as light as possible. I have even skeletonized the Leupold QRW rings that it will wear, pic below. This actually shaved 1/2 ounce.

I tend to agree with Daryl re the Partitions. I'm only loading to 2200 fps, a very mild load.

Shotgunlover,

The finish that you see is exactly as I received the monoblock. The machine work was done with EDM wire-cutting. They applied some type of finish, that looks just like phosphating, afterwards to prevent corrosion. That is the matte look that you see.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:13 PM)

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Ron_Vella
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Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243924 - 17/03/14 05:17 AM

Here are a few photos of what I've been up to for the last few days. Photo below shows the original extractor from the .410 barrels on the left. On the right is the extractor which I've made for the rifle barrels. Once it is fitted to the barrels I will finish-contour the radii and cut the rim recess, using the chamber finishing reamer.

I also had to fabricate a forend hanger for the rifle barrels. Photo below shows it beside the original on the .410 barrels.

Another job still to be done is the machining of the combination top rib / quarter rib. Photo below shows a piece of cold-rolled steel, temporarily soldered to a square tube, which is clamped to a very rigid piece of aluminum I-Beam. This will be clamped in two milling vises for machining.

More to follow.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:14 PM)

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Dumprat
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243926 - 17/03/14 05:38 AM

Nice work.

he EDM process uses a fluid sort of like cutting oil. That is probably the coationg you are seeing. We get a few heli parts cut with the EDM and they come back the same way.

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Aaron_Little
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Dumprat]
#243930 - 17/03/14 07:44 AM

Wire EDM's typically use water to flush out the cut during machining, at least ours does. It can leave behind a "scale" type finish that looks like the finish above. Sinker/spark EDM's use a oil that submerges the part.

Im of the school of thought that when dealing with wall thickness and monoblocks, your structural support/ pressure holding is all done with the wall thickness of the sleeved portion of the tubes, not the sleeved portion of the tubes and the thickness of the monoblock added together. My reasoning for this is because of the joint at the front of the monoblock and the tubes. The monoblock thickness cant add any strength at this joint, the sleeved portion of the tubes is what contains pressure at this point. Another issue with this joint is it is in a area where pressure is highest, and it also has a 90 degree angle. As im sure you are aware cracks are prone to form at 90 degree joints.

Do I think your gun will fail at normal pressure...Not really. But as a manufacturer I have to add additional safeguards in place to prevent from rare circumstances causing failures. As an individual doing work on personal guns, you cant hold yourself liable if failure occures...not without a good lawyer anyways.

None-the-less, keep up the work and tutorials.

Edited by Aaron_Little (17/03/14 08:22 AM)

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Aaron_Little]
#243957 - 18/03/14 01:33 AM

Aaron,
Some interesting observations. There is no denying the concentration of stresses at the apex of a 90 degree joint. However that's a fault common to every gun that was ever either sleeved or built on the mono-block system. One thing that I have going for me is that this is a bottleneck cartridge with a fair amount of body taper. About 1/2" before that seam, the diameter of the cartridge drops from the .468" at the base down to only .294" at the neck and then .264" at the seam, the point of the highest stress. This provides a lot of extra steel at that point. As I said earlier, proof firing in a couple of weeks will show whether this project was ill-advised or not.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243967 - 18/03/14 07:08 AM

Here is a bit more. Photo below, a little out of focus, shows the rear face of the barrels after micro-tigging. The weld on the right barrel has been filed and stoned, the left is still to be done.

In the next photo, both welds are finished and the rim recesses freshed out with the chambering reamer.

The final two photos were taken after I finished filing and stoning the seams between the front of the mono-block and the rear shoulder on the barrels. As you can see, even though the barrels are still in the white, the seams are barely visible. Once things are rust blued, they will be even less so.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:17 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#243968 - 18/03/14 07:26 AM

I have to agree with Ron. All mono-block systems regardless of the method of joining the barrels to the block have the same weakness, however this is not a problem if designed properly, such as machining a radius at the apex, providing of course that there is enough material thickness. As far as the sleeve, this is the basic principle of laminating and the more steel you use, providing the two parts have good contact, will always increase the overall strength. It won't be as strong as one piece of solid steel but it will still be stronger. Remingtons "Three rings of steel" works in the same way. One ring of steel inside another inside another. We laminate Jeep differential housings here at work by fitting 8mm wall thickness hollow bar inside the legs and attaching with multiple small puddle welds. We have tested the force required to bend the leg before and after laminating, and there is about a 30% increase in resistance to bending.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Shotgunlover
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#244237 - 23/03/14 12:22 AM

The question of the monobloc "step" being a possible weak spot has been a puzzle for me too. Sure it has an angle, on the other hand it has been succesfully used in double rifles. The most notable example that I can think of is the Beretta Sable OU. There appears to be no radiusing at the "step" in the Sable.

Another puzzle is the proportion of metal thickness apportioned between the barrel tube and the monobloc. I have seen (from the lines under the extractor, that the monobloc is often relegated to the thinnest possible section, acting more like a holding fixture, leaving the pressure containment to the barrel tube. Is this the best option?

As to the pictured project, I LIKE IT! A 6.5mm double must be a pleasure to hunt with.

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Shotgunlover]
#244308 - 24/03/14 07:24 AM

Shotgunlover, a radius will not be seen from the outside as it transitions from the barrel spigot diameter to the shoulder and finishes well before the OD of the barrel. The mono-block has a very slightly larger radius at the mouth where the barrel spigot enters and when the two are pressed together, the shoulder of the barrel buts with the face of the mono-block, hiding the radius inside.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#244343 - 24/03/14 11:58 PM

W,
In theory, your method is entirely correct. However, if one were to x-ray any one of the hundreds of thousands of guns that Beretta has built using the mono-bloc system, I'd bet that both angles are 90 degrees, not radiused.

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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#244356 - 25/03/14 03:25 AM

That's a nice looking round, Ron. - It will be SO much fun once finished.
Good choice.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#244367 - 25/03/14 07:12 AM

Ron, I agree with you completely, most if not all factory guns would only have the tool nose radius and no more. I mentioned it only as some of the members were a bit concerned and I was trying to point out a way to join barrel to mono-block with built in strength.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#244649 - 30/03/14 01:31 PM

Here are three more photos, showing what I've accomplished this week. The first is of one of the canvas and leather cases that Jeff's Outfitters sells for drillings. I gutted the interior and rebuilt it to accomodate two barrel sets as well as scope, snap caps, oil bottle, cleaning kit, and scope caps.

The next photo shows the barrels with forend hanger and two spacers welded into place. The muzzle wedge is currently being held in place by friction alone.

The last photo shows the lower rib, fitted to the barrels and screwed to the two barrel spacers. As well, I have installed the sling swivel base. This rib will also be soldered in place during final assembly.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:19 PM)

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#244714 - 31/03/14 07:43 PM

Looks great so far Ron!

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#246181 - 22/04/14 12:44 PM

Here are four photos to show the work that I've done recently on this project:

The photo above shows the holes drilled for the extractor stem and the guide rod, and the mortise machined into the rear face of the barrels to receive the extractor.

Here is the same view with the extractor fitted into place and the chambers and throats finished to full depth.

This photo shows the top rib finally fitted into place. In my experience, this is always the most labour-intensive part of these conversions. It requires many hours of smoking and filing to get a proper fit between the underside of the quarter rib area and the rapidly changing compound curves in the last 6"-7" of barrels and mono-block. The two screws anchor the rib very solidly and make the final soldering assembly much easier. The rear screw will be hidden under the rear scope base. The front screw will be hidden under the iron sight. The quarter rib and the front sight ramp will be milled down to less than half this height after things are soldered together.

This photo shows the small block that I filed up and had welded into place behind the forend hanger. This block was drilled and tapped 8-40 to accept the forward anchor screw in the top rib. I also filed up the short section of rear bottom rib and had it welded into place at the same time. I've done some work today, first with my Dremel Tool, then with polishing stones, to dress down the welds and even the area out. Still some final polishing required in this area, after soldering the ribs on, before bluing.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:20 PM)

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246189 - 22/04/14 03:59 PM

Looks great Ron! Would you mind if I ask for a couple of measurements if you have the time? There are a couple of .410's at work that may be suitable for a conversion and Id like to compare them. What is the distance between firing pin holes, the width of the action at the watertable and through the fences and finally the length of the water table?

Are the ribs made by yourself?

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#246233 - 23/04/14 02:51 AM

M,
Pins, C to C : .826"
Water Table, width; 1.40"
Water Table, Length of flat section only: 1.74"

Rib was machined from a 24"x3/4"x1/2" piece of cold-rolled steel. I solder it to a piece of 1.5" square tube so that it can be held in milling vise while machining.

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246243 - 23/04/14 06:29 AM

Many thanks for the measurements Ron.

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#246334 - 24/04/14 01:06 PM

This photo shows the second monoblock that I have for this project. In front of it are the three cartridges that I am trying to choose between for it. On the left is the .357 magnum, which I already load for. 14 grains of WW 296 drive the 150 grain Keith style bullet, cast out of linotype, at 1500 fps from a 6.5" barrel, so probably about 1800 fps from 24" bbls. I'd have to buy two new barrels and they'd set me back about $500.00. There would be the advantage of carrying both a rifle and a pistol in the same chambering.

The middle round is the .32-20 Winchester, a fine old cartridge which I've never owned. I think that I can pick up a pair of .303 barrels from 1910 Ross rifles, with excellent bores, for about $150.00. The 115 grain Lyman bullet, cast in linotype, can probably be driven at around 1800 fps as well. I would have to part with an additional $250.00 for a mould, handles, sizer die, top punch, shell holder, and loading dies.

On the right is the .218 Bee, another fine old, though largely forgotten cartridge. I see quite a few used .224 barrels for sale at gun shows so can probably pick up a pair for about $150.00. As with the .32-20, I'd have to spend about an additional $250.00 for all of the same loading equipment.

As info, I'm leaning towards the .32-20. It would be dynamite on turkeys, coyotes, etc! I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on the matter and reasons why? I want a small, low-intensity, rimmed cartridge. I also want to shoot cast lead bullets which are cheap to make and allow for unlimited shooting.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 09:21 PM)

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rglenz
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246375 - 24/04/14 11:22 PM

Ron,
Back in my youth,I had a 32-20 Martini cadet. It's a great little cartridge,fun to shoot,I took lots of vermin with it. Now you have me thinking__I should have another!

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HistoricBore
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: rglenz]
#246376 - 24/04/14 11:45 PM

Hi guys

Here are some thoughts from Olde Englande. Since our pistols were confiscated back in 1996 I have been specialising in Rook rifles and their funny calibres. Much of that is not relevant to this thread, but I now do own and shoot two double hammer rifles, one an original .360 x 2.25" and the other is a converted .410 shotgun - see above. This was made in the 1920s and about ten years ago was converted to a double rifle by a very talented, now deceased, gunsmith for his own use. He sleeved the barrels with two second-hand SMLE .303 barrels, complete with left-hand twist, and then chambered it for .32-20. He regulated it for the mild 1100 fps loading, and it shoots to within an inch out to 100 yards. Interestingly the right barrel is 20 fps slower than the left barrel (wear?) so sometimes I hear a "pop, CRACK" when firing indoors. It shoots lead bullets fine even with a rate of twist that is 'too fast'...

Now for dimensions: Firing pins centre to centre is 0.84", table is 1.27" wide and 1.685" long.

The original .360 measures:

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HistoricBore
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: HistoricBore]
#246377 - 24/04/14 11:50 PM

Sorry, hit the wrong key...

Centre to centre: 0.655", and the table is 1.25" wide but 2.05" long, to suit the 2.25" cartridge.

I would recommend everyone to have a .32-20. They are great fun to shoot, very accurate with nitro or black powder, and the Starline cases are thicker than, say, Remington and so last better. I use nickel Remington cases for BP loads: easy to tell the difference and easier to clean. They also regulate perfectly.

I have loaded this round up to a genuine 1900 fps but then my rifle does not regulate.

Good luck with the project!

HB

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: HistoricBore]
#246380 - 25/04/14 12:45 AM

HB,
Thanks for some very useful information. What you say further reinforces my idea that the .32-20 is the best choice of the three.

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aromakr
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246382 - 25/04/14 01:16 AM

Ron:
Years ago I had a Remington/Hepburn in a 32/20. Oh! what fun it was to shoot and load for. I might still have the dies around. I'll look and see, if so postage will get them to you.
Bob

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: aromakr]
#246386 - 25/04/14 02:15 AM

I-to would pick the .32/20 - I've never had one but have wanted one since I used to drool over the ctgs. (part box) in the hardware store as a kid. I assume some farmer needed just a few for a problem dog or maybe for a deer for his freezer - those rifle rounds were quite impressive to a 15 year old buying 4 or 5 shells for his 20 bore to go grouse hunting.(Dorchester, Ont.)

Yes - the .32/30, Ron. There are already lots of .357 rifles - Marlins and Winchesters.

Then there's the .218Bee - I shot over 7,500 rounds through my Ruger #1B and that rifle is it's new owner's favourite for plinking at the ranges.

Easy, low pressure Lil'Gun loads will drive 40gr. at 3,300fps with it from 26" tubes - no more pressure than factory ammo's 2,840fps w/45gr.

That easily makes it a 300yard ground hog rifle - or with TSX 45gr. at the same speed - a good little whitetailed deer rifle.

The #1 and that powder 'loaded to the nuts' will drive the 40gr. bullets at over 3,600fps.

At over 8,000 rounds with the original 400cases (now over 20 reloads each, because I lost some of the cases on a rat shoot), the rifles' owner is still using my original brass - wonder what the pressure actually is, the brass lasting so well - oh yeah - never been annealed, either. Tight chamber - good dies - Hornady, love 'em. The .408" rim makes that an exceptionally strong case.

Lots of good to say about the .218B Bee ctg.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: aromakr]
#246387 - 25/04/14 02:19 AM

Bob,
A most gracious offer and one that I'd accept in a heartbeat. I've just this minute closed a deal on a pair of Ross barrels. Also, I note that Midway sells hard cast, 115 grain , sized and lubed bullets for the .32-20 for $47/500. It's not worth casting my own at that price!

Best,
Ron.

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246412 - 25/04/14 08:30 AM

Bob,
My best friend showed up at my door 1/2 hour ago with a set of as-new RCBS dies, 100 new Winchester primed brass, and a box of Dominion 115 grain bullets. I'm good to go!

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aromakr
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246451 - 25/04/14 11:44 PM

Ron:
Sounds like your set. Have fun. I wish I had your talent and skills.
Bob

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246790 - 01/05/14 12:38 PM

Ron
Does your finishing reamer have a "built-in" freebore, and how long is it ? Some rifle makers give their Magnum cartridges EXTRA long freebore to reduce chamber pressure.

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: savage458]
#246901 - 03/05/14 09:40 AM

Savage 458,

I ordered the 6.5x57R finishing reamer from PTG. It is an excellent, super-sharp tool, but the throat that it cuts is so short that I could not fully chamber rounds loaded with the 140 grain Nosler Partition. I had to buy a throating reamer from them to rectify the problem

Best,
Ron.

PS: Would anybody out there have a .32-20 finishing reamer that they are interested in renting out or selling? By the time I buy a new one and pay shipping and taxes, I'll have spent $150.00 or more for a reamer that will cut those two little chambers and then never be used again.

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#246920 - 04/05/14 02:50 AM

Ron - it probably is of no use to you, but I do have a .17AB reamer with adjustable pilot. Unfortunately, it would cut the Ackley Improved chamber and you would need a neck-throater to finish the chamber. Too, you would need a bore sized .32 pilot to make my reamer index in your barrels.

It cuts a minimal web size which may or may not fit .32/20 brass.

--------------------
Daryl

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aromakr
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#246926 - 04/05/14 06:45 AM

Ron:
There are a couple of places here in the states that rent reamers, have you tried them? Not sure if they will ship to Canada however,.
Bob
Here's one that didn't say US only.

4D Reamer Rentals LTD
432 East Idaho St., Suite C420
Kalispell, MT 59901

Phone 406-752-2520
Fax 24/7 406-890-6341

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: aromakr]
#246934 - 04/05/14 09:43 AM

Daryl, Unfortunately it would cost just as much that way.

Aro, Neither of them will ship to Canada.

There's an old proverb: "All things come to he who waits".

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#248024 - 28/05/14 09:35 AM

Despite not having posted here for a while, I have been working away at the third set of barrels. I obtained two 1910 Ross barrels, turned and polished them, and fitted them to my other mono-block. I also fabricated and fitted a bottom rib and front swivel base. Today I finished the fitting and polishing of the extractor that I made up. Now i have to wait for my .32-20 chamber reamer to arrive. Then I can cut the chambers and take the gun out to proof-fire it. The photos show the original .410 barrels on the right, the 6.5x57R barrels in the centre, and the .32-20 barrels on the right.

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#248025 - 28/05/14 10:02 AM

Its coming along nicely.

--------------------
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#248083 - 29/05/14 03:30 AM

Thanks for the update.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: NitroX]
#248098 - 29/05/14 04:57 AM

Looks great Ron! Mind if i ask about using the liquid nitrogen to shrink fit the barrels into the monoblock. Do you simply submerge the barrel tenon into the LN? How long do you leave it for? Is the barrel then tapped in, or do you use the threaded rods to "draw" the barrel into position?

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#248101 - 29/05/14 06:12 AM

Matabele,
When you lower the barrel into the liquid nitrogen, you get a whistling jet of white nitrogen gas spewing from the muzzle. That is because the warm barrel is changing the liquid into a gaseous state at a very high rate. You need to wait 5 or 10 minutes until this ceases. That tells you that the shank of the barrel is at or near the temperature of the liquid nitrogen. Wearing heavy gloves, remove the barrel from the thermos, drop it over the threaded rod and ensure that the shank drops down into the monoblock. Drop a washer over the top, thread a nut down TIGHTLY, then wait for the temps to normalize. That's it!

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#248126 - 29/05/14 04:19 PM

Thanks for the explanation Ron, seems a really simple process compared to the alternatives! Being such a tight friction fit I imagine the bond between barrel and mono block is as tight as anything.

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#248152 - 30/05/14 08:35 AM

Virtually welded in place - then spotted to ensure it.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#248176 - 30/05/14 01:50 PM

Ron, your build posts are always a trove of information!
I, for one, really enjoy seeing the build processes unfold and wish to someday attempt the same on my own. A long term plan for sure so I have lots of time to learn from gents such as yourself.
Keep it coming!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Huvius]
#248333 - 02/06/14 12:43 PM

Well, the chamber reamer arrived on Thursday. Here's a photo of two snap caps resting in the newly-reamed chambers. I'm now busy at chequering the new forend that I made up to fit all three barrel sets.

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#248338 - 02/06/14 04:08 PM

That setup is going to be a lot of fun Ron, congrats! Good job on the fit of the extractor too, almost seamless.

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Sarg
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#248339 - 02/06/14 05:00 PM

Heck yes some nice work there alright !

When can I send mine up for you to make me that 577LN ?? LoL

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Sarg]
#248357 - 03/06/14 12:57 AM

To be honest, I did not "fit" the extractor, I only fabricated it. I am fortunate to have a good friend who is a tool and die maker and has a Bridgeport-clone milling machine in his garage. Bill is also a shooter so he understands the "whys and wherefores" of these jobs. Whenever I need a job done that requires a mill, like sinking the mortise for the extractor, Bill is the man I go to. You're correct, he outdid himself on this one. Once I had filed and stoned the face of the extractor flush with the barrels, it was hard to see the seam.

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Shotgunlover
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#248408 - 03/06/14 09:43 PM

Ron a question,

At the risk of sounding a little dense, how much of the barrel is immersed in liquid nitrogen? Is it just the turned chamber end or the whole barrel?

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Shotgunlover

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Shotgunlover]
#248411 - 03/06/14 10:12 PM

I immersed about 1 foot at the chamber end, because that's about how much liquid nitrogen was in the thermos.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#250259 - 10/07/14 06:43 AM

I finally got out to a friend's farm today and proof fired this double. With the .32-20 barrels mounted it was a walk in the park. My 6.5x57R loads were 4 full grains over maximum listed. The cases showed some scuffing after extraction but nothing else and the gun is tight and on the face after 3 proof rounds through each barrel. Considering that my regulation load is the minimum listed in the Nosler manual, I'm confident that I'm good to go. Time to solder the ribs to the barrels now.

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tinker
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#250264 - 10/07/14 10:48 AM

God stuff Ron!

I can't wait to see the finished rifle and regulation targets.

-Tinker

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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: tinker]
#250288 - 11/07/14 07:35 AM

That is going to be a fun gun to shoot.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#250295 - 11/07/14 12:18 PM

I noticed one problem when I proof fired this rifle yesterday. Because of the large diameter of the shotgun firing pins, and their sloppy fit in the discs, I was getting a lot more primer flow than I can live with. Today I stripped the action down. First I held the pins in a collet in my lathe and reduced their diameters from the original .096" down to .070". Then I drilled out the discs with a # 28 drill bit and threaded the holes 8-40. Then I threaded in 8-40 screws, locked in place with Loctite Black Max, drilled through them with a #50 drill bit (.070"), and dressed them down flush with the discs. A touch up of bluing, reassembly with a dab of blue Loctite, and problem solved!

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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#250320 - 12/07/14 07:08 AM

Great to hear the gun passed proof, and nice solution to the firing pin issue. I'm looking forward to hearing how it regulates and shoots!

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#250698 - 19/07/14 12:31 PM

Earlier this week I finished soldering the ribs on the 6.5x57R barrels, then spent a day cleaning up the resultant mess of flux and surplus solder. The barrels are now at my friend Bill's place so that he can mill the dovetails and mortises in the top rib for the sights and the scope bases.

Below is a photo of the .32-20 WCF barrels. I have tinned all surfaces with Hi-Force solder and acid flux and scrubbed away all residual acid afterwards with hot soapy water. I then coated all mating surfaces with liquid rosin flux and have it clamped up in my jig ready for final soldering. Now I find that my oxygen tank is empty so completion will have to wait until Monday.

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#250874 - 22/07/14 06:23 PM

It's looking great Ron! What are you thinking of doing for scope mounting?

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#250989 - 25/07/14 01:12 AM

Shown below are three photos of the .32-20 barrels. I have soldered on the ribs and cleaned up the resultant mess. Here's how I do that. I've found that the best solvent for the residual rosin flux is gasoline. I take the barrels outside, pour about a quart of gas into an old pail, and scrub everything well using a brass-bristled brush. The one that I use is one of those toothbrush-sized cleaning brushes that you see at all of the gun shows.

I then use various wood chisels, that I keep honed razor-sharp, to pare away all of the sags, bumps, and lumps of extraneous solder. I also use the chisels to pare away all of the surplus solder along the edges of the ribs. Your chisels need to be sharp enough that they'll cut away the solder in one long continuous thread!

Next I switch to a wire wheel. I use a 3/4 HP motor, at about 3500 RPM, mounted on top of two pieces of 2" x 8" x 12" lumber, on top of my bench. This gives me about 5" beneath the wheel to work with. I use an 8" x 1" medium wire wheel. This set-up will remove all of the solder with about an hour's careful work. Always wear heavy leather welding gauntlets when doing this job. If you slip, while bare-handed, that wheel will remove flesh faster that it will solder. Please don't ask how I know this!!!

The wire wheel WILL leave all of the steel surfaces with a fairly pronounced brushed finish. To remove that finish, I stone everything, starting with 100, then 150, then 220, then 320, and finally 400 grit stones, well flooded with a mixture of varsol and motor oil. The finish that results from that is what you see in these photos. These barrels now have to go to Bill's house so that the dovetails, mortises, and slots can be milled for the front and rear sights, the scope bases, and the front sight "window hood". Before all of that, I'll have him level the assembly in the milling vises and mill the quarter rib and front sight ramp down to finished height.

One last thing. You'll notice that there are two counter-bored holes in the quarter rib. Through these are 8-40 fillister screws into holes that I've drilled and tapped into the top rib and the forend hanger. I've found that this is a great way to keep the rib in the proper position and tight to the monoblock, during the soldering operation. The rear hole will be hidden under the rear scope base. The front hole will be hidden under the rear sight.

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tinker
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#250992 - 25/07/14 03:21 AM

Looks great!

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Matabele
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: tinker]
#251205 - 28/07/14 10:51 PM

Coming along nicely Ron! That's going to be a fun setup.

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DarylS
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#251210 - 29/07/14 12:17 AM

Need a new case now. Let's see, stock, scope, 4 sets of barrels - maybe have to put wheels on that case, Ron. Well done.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#251220 - 29/07/14 01:54 AM

You're right Daryl, I've "built" myself out of this case now! However, it's 3 sets of barrels, not 4, plus stock/action, 2 scopes, fore end, cleaning rod, snap caps, etc. I've been looking thru Jeff's website trying to determine which of his cases will be large enough, without being too large, for me to gut the interior then re-line and re-configure it to accomodate all of this.

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Aaron_Little
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#251370 - 01/08/14 12:11 AM

Ron, would your machine shop friend have any desire to produce some complete double actions in square form? I have a machine shop digitizing an action for me know, but their timeframe and costs leave me wanting to do d someone else to produce it.

--------------------
A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC.
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com
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Edited by Aaron_Little (01/08/14 12:12 AM)

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Aaron_Little]
#251509 - 03/08/14 10:43 PM

Aaron,

I will ask Bill but I see a world of problems:

1) We are in Canada so he would need a permit from your State Dept. to export gun parts to USA.
2) US Customs would then charge you import duties on parts coming in to USA.
3) Bill has DRO but not Cad/Cam so every job is a one-off.
4) He and his wife have both recently retired, are down-sizing, and plan to move to smaller location. He is currently trying to sell his mill.

Best,
Ron.

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Aaron_Little
.300 member

Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 109
Loc: Newark, TX

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#251514 - 04/08/14 01:41 AM

You are correct Ron, I skipped over the part you being in Canada. The edm'ed monoblock is rather impressive.

--------------------
A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC.
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com
682-554-0044

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Ron_Vella
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Aaron_Little]
#251811 - 09/08/14 12:29 PM

After many hours of machining, filing, and stoning, the two sets of rifle barrels are complete and ready for regulation. Here a few photos. Seen from the breech end, the 6.5x57r barrels are on the left and the .32-20WCF barrels on the right.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#251813 - 09/08/14 01:26 PM

Well done, Ron - well done.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#251827 - 09/08/14 10:23 PM

Looks good Ron. Looking forward to seeing the finished project. Well done.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Ron_Vella
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#252869 - 29/08/14 02:56 AM

As we discussed above, I had to build a new case to accomodate 3 sets of barrels as opposed to the original 2 sets. I started out, 8 days ago, with a sheet of 1/4" plywood, a piece of 1"x4"x96" red oak, some canvas, felt, and leather. Fortunately, I own a planer, so I'm able to create whatever thickness of wood I need. Here is the result. Please don't ask how many hours are invested in making this case. You'd think that I was nuts if I told you!

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#252879 - 29/08/14 06:50 AM

Looks great Ron, to make anything properly takes a shit load of time but there is a difference between something that looks good and something that looks great.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#252883 - 29/08/14 08:15 AM

Wonderful, Ron - one of these days/years, I'll be back in Ontario and we'll have a visit, if possible. I'd really like that.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: DarylS]
#255410 - 18/10/14 02:29 AM

I decided some time ago to build two more fore ends, each fitted to one of the rifle barrels, so that there are no unsightly gaps between wood and barrels. It proved to be a big job but I'm now in the home stretch. The attached two photos show the original in the rear and the new ones to the front, one assembled and the other still in pieces. More photos to come in a few weeks when all of the checkering, stock finishing, and rust-bluing is completed.

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Metalguy
.300 member

Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#255411 - 18/10/14 04:03 AM

Very jealous of your skills. Nice work!

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Matabele
.300 member

Reged: 16/09/10
Posts: 230
Loc: Zimbabwe

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Metalguy]
#255546 - 21/10/14 11:36 PM

Looking great Ron! Seems as though you are having a lot of fun on this one. Hopefully you'll be able to get some field time with it shortly.

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Ron_Vella
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Matabele]
#278206 - 20/02/16 02:39 AM

Someone phoned me yesterday, asking for info about this build. I'm bringing it back to the top so that they can find it.

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Ron_Vella
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: 6.5x57 Rimmed Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
#278208 - 20/02/16 02:43 AM

btt

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