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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Ruger_450
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Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
An FN with a problem
      #243480 - 08/03/14 06:33 AM

This was purchased over there by an Army officer who apparently was unfamiliar with the concept of cheek weld.
It's very nice commercial FN 30-06 that this man was somehow convinced to have a huge 6X Zeiss w/3 picket posts put on. Makes a nice carrying handle. If you put a pillow on the comb, it will shoot almost 5 of anything into 1&1/2" or less, which given the limits of the reticle a'int bad.

Called a couple of claw mount experts and was told to make new mounts for a reasonable scope (2.5-10x32 Nightforce), blued and installed would cost about as much as the scope.

I remember a guy who had an old 7x57 Mauser (WWII bring back) that also has a suitcase handle scope setup with claw mounts. It had a button on the side that when pushed raised the top 1/3rd of the buttstock up to scope level using spring loaded plungers. Clever solution.

Thinking about getting removable fillers made for the bases that could be D&T to mount a Picatinny rail on so I could put super low bases and small objective lens scope on. Could always be put back as there would be no new holes etc.

Anybody solve this already ? Thanks.

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93x64mm
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #243492 - 08/03/14 08:28 AM

Try a new straighter type stock with less drop at the heel!
You don't get much better than a Ziess, it'll outlast your grandkids so to speak.
Use the original stock for open sights to get your head lower, but use the more "conventional" one for everyday use
No biggie!
Cheers
93x64mm

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DarylS
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: 93x64mm]
      #243500 - 08/03/14 09:24 AM

The rifle is stocked for irons - or for use with a straight standing position, bottom area of the chin touching the cheek piece. Quite normal.
This one does appear slighlty higher than normal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xausa
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: 93x64mm]
      #243501 - 08/03/14 09:31 AM

I had the same problem with my BRNO 22H 7X64. I solved it with a Brownell's lace on cheek piece http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sto...-prod1870.aspx. It serves the same purpose as the pop-up cheek piece you referred to, but is not as unsightly. If you really want a pop up cheek piece, I know a gunsmith who installed them on virtually all of my target rifles.

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eagle27
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #243517 - 08/03/14 05:16 PM

Quote:

Makes a nice carrying handle.



I must object, I have copyright on this statement and can tell you be very careful if you use this description of the European mounting system, especially if you mention putting the scope in some nice low Weaver rings and low mounting blocks in the same breath, you will be crucified by the snobs who put tradition over practicality

Shouldn't call them snobs, I'll re-phrase that to traditionalists

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Ruger_450
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Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
Re: An FN with a problem [Re: eagle27]
      #243531 - 09/03/14 02:29 AM

Eagle, thanks for the chuckle.

It is not an "iron sight" stock and FN did not supply a rear sight. All my other FNs with scopes mounted the proper 1&1/2" over bore or less work just fine as issued. Look at a prewar M 70 or a 721 A low comb variation …. those are iron sight stocks.

The M-1 style cheek rest dooes not really raise the comb, it is to move you left to line up with the offset sniper scope models of the M-1 (I have one on mine). It is also butt ugly.

As for putting you chin on the comb, my pal has a 6 pound 8x60 Mauser with the same type of suitcase handle scope and a razor sharp comb. He also uses a pillow.

The rail idea makes sense to me as the gun requires no butchering and the mounting will be a more solid one piece rail as a claw mount is not an interference fit in the front and depends on the rear mount to tie the scope down. The heavier the cartridge and the heavier the scope the less success in meeting that objective.

Of course the scope, although probably pushing 60, is a great piece of glass, just mounted too high and having a reticle totally silly for a 6X glass hunting in North America. I could see it on a single shot 98 Werhmannsgewehr in 81.5x46R with a custom Schuetzen stock, double sets and a new reticle from TL Lee, but building a 6 grand rifle around a $800 scope would be among my largest waste of $ projects.

The rifle also has the horrible FN single stage non adjustable trigger. That will go into the parts box and be replaced with a 98 tuned and stoned two stage which can be safe and still @3 pounds. Probably the second best trigger, only surpassed by a 1903 NM Springfield for all around use. Really dislike single stage triggers and where possible always set them up to have some take up before there is pressure to release the striker.

We'll see how it works out, would like to be able to slip in the scabbard on 2014's Elk hunt.

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Dumprat
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Reged: 20/02/14
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #243534 - 09/03/14 03:41 AM

If one were to be funny about it, the stock and scope mounting suggests the builder was cross eyed. Shooting right handed while looking through the scope with his left eye....


Could you not swap the front claw mount around and move the scope several inches forward? ( I don't know much about claw mounts)

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Tentman
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Dumprat]
      #243558 - 09/03/14 07:44 PM

You could try and use the rifle as it was intended, shooting head up.

I think its a bit of a shame that everything seems to come back to shooting from a bench, or prone (although you can shoot this style of rifle in that position).

If you have challenged yourself to learn to use a two stage trigger you can surely learn to shoot head up - and you'll find yourself in the fine company of literally millions of European hunters - who between them shoot a lot of game !!

Cheers

--------------------
Southland, New Zealand

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DarylS
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Tentman]
      #243571 - 10/03/14 04:08 AM

Quote:

You could try and use the rifle as it was intended, shooting head up.

I think its a bit of a shame that everything seems to come back to shooting from a bench, or prone (although you can shoot this style of rifle in that position).

If you have challenged yourself to learn to use a two stage trigger you can surely learn to shoot head up - and you'll find yourself in the fine company of literally millions of European hunters - who between them shoot a lot of game !!

Cheers



Exactly!

If you must have the typical NA scrunched down hard cheek weld with head angled forward - put a different stock & scope on it - or sell it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ruger_450
Banned


Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
Re: An FN with a problem [Re: DarylS]
      #243577 - 10/03/14 07:42 AM

Well anyone who would butcher up a commercial deluxe FN with about the best in period optics should be kept away from classic sporting rifles.

Having grown up in 4 position match shooting nobody shoots with their head up and it has always been one of the most common errors in any type of clays shooting.

You could add drop and raise the cheeckpiece like a Scheutzen rifle but as it sits it is hardly an optimum setup.

The fact that European hunters may have killed driven game from elevated stands with setups like this is hardly like stalking an Elk through the black timber where I live.

As for 2 stage triggers, they are so superior to most of the garbage on today's rifles (except Savage, which in effect is a 2 stage trigger) it's not worth the comment.

I don't hunt off a bench or prone (hard to see over the sagebrush). Most shots are offhand or using any available rest like the limb of a blown down or handy fencepost.

The best hunting rifle (not wannabe snipers) has a lot in common with the best upland shotgun. Not too light, natural swing and followthrough with a low sighting plane.

IMO the best of the bunch (unless you are in the Rigby or H&H price range) is made by a shotgun maker ….. good old Benelli, the R1. Handle like a nice 20 bore upland gun, will hold 1 moa, 4 shots quick and a respectable caliber in the 300 or 338 winmag.

With the right scope, mounted right (low), it just works right. Since it was designed by Europeans, I would venture they have learned a lot since the days of suitcase handle scope mounting.



That a 2/5-10x32 Nightforce in S&K mounts. Scope cost as much as the rifle …… always a good policy.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244141 - 21/03/14 09:46 PM

This thread is hilarious! Haven't laughed so much for quite a while....

By all means, get rid of that "suitcase-handle" Zeiss and replace it with a "proper" Nightforce on a Picatinny rail....
That'll show 'em...!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Ruger_450
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Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Marrakai]
      #244159 - 22/03/14 01:58 AM

I'm glad I can entertain you. There is no one to "show", just trying to make an excellent rifle more user friendly w/o destroying its originality. If you believe mounting a scope as high as my FN is the way to go, that's your choice to make. Any modern shooting school or military qualified sniper would tell you it is obsolete. The R1 carries the scope as a modern rifle should. It does also not have a huge objective lens as they are totally unnecessary with today's glass and coatings. Not to many R1s down under I believe, but the same holds true for even a 1950s Remington bolt action.



"Suitcase handle" mounting started when scopes were unreliable and usually carried in a protective leather pack. As the irons were still in place and "low scope bolt handles" did not exist, scopes were mounted high to clear both.

Here is a modern day sniper rifle. Note how low the scope is mounted.



Hope you continue to be entertained and ….. perhaps gain some knowledge.

Edited by Ruger_450 (22/03/14 02:08 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244161 - 22/03/14 03:01 AM

Compared with MOST rifles today, rifles without a plastic stocks are pretty much obsolete, if you are looking for the most advanced, of course. How many sniper rifes today have walnut stocks - none.

Yes - newer match rifles, sniper and modern, US made and many other sporting rifles have low scopes for a HARD cheek weld on their fairly high combs - the old rifles did not - oh well. Do the modern rifles make better hunting rifles because of that - depends on what you demand from a hunting rifle, I'd guess.

I rather like the 'old' rifles style of stock & I shoot them well. Hunting rifles are not match rifles nor are they sniper rifles - by use or by their design.

To be able to use just such an older designed rifle when hunting, produces much of the pleasure of hunting in itself and many people feel the same. They feel this way to the point where they also hunt with iron sighted rifles, much drop in the stock and of designs and manufacture even older than the Mausers, perhaps like this one. If they want more range from their older designed rifle, they add a 'older' style scope, which means high mounts designed primarily to clear a bent, not cut and re-welded bolt.

No scope, and only a chin-weld. Is it a modern sniper rifle? - hell no, but it brings a smile to your face when you carry it hunting, as-will the Mauser at the top of this thread - but only if you enjoy them, of course.

This one is fun to hunt with - lots of drop - oh well, that's how they were made. It is not a design flaw, even if it just so happens to have more drop than a modern sniper rifle. It isn't a sniper rifle - it's a hunting rifle.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244163 - 22/03/14 03:38 AM

Quote:


Hope you continue to be entertained and ….. perhaps gain some knowledge.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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458Win
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: NitroX]
      #244180 - 22/03/14 06:16 AM

450, it's your rifle to do with as you wish. If it were mine I would be tempted to call out the folks touting about how fantastic those large old scopes are and see if any were willing to put their money where their mouths are. And probably the stock as well.
Then build up the rifle the way I wanted it.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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Ruger_450
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Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
Re: An FN with a problem [Re: 458Win]
      #244198 - 22/03/14 11:38 AM

It's a fine scope with optics as you good as 99% of folks need. Those yammering away have yet to produce photos of their suitcase handle scope setups and all the game they have slain with them.

My only goal is to make it more user friendly w/o destroying its original configuration.

AS for "hunting rifles" I managed to kill a speed goat at 90 odd paces with iron sights on this Whitworth replica.



In the Civil War you really didn't want to get within 600 yards of a Confederate armed with the military version of this rifle. I now have a 3/4" Unertl 6X scope on this rifles (many CW sniper rifles also carried scopes). Even this old geezer can ring the 12" gong every shot @400 yards using a simple rest.



Comparing a muzzle loading rifle designed to be shot with sights 1/2" above the bore from an offhand position to a modern sporting rifle built when scope usage was common is just silly. The Hawken style ML shown above was designed to be shot off your hind legs and has 3X the drop as the FN. The hook buttplate goes on your upper arm not your shoulder and cheek not chin goes on the stock. They "hang" beautifully and with the DST shown, some amazing shooting can be done.

Here are a matched pair of R.F. Sedgley deluxe engraved Springfield Sporters in 257 Bob and 30-06 built for a lefty in 1935. Note that they are fine examples of the desire to have the iron sights available with the scopes mounted. Rather like the silly "see thru" rings you see today that instantly brand the rifle's owner as a rank novice.



The Remington 721 I showed earlier and the FN with the suitcase handle are about the same vintage. Note that the 721 carries a proper period Unertl Hawk and Redfield mounts. Interesting that we had it figured out on a bargain rifle while the Euros still clung to pre war technology.

Edited by Ruger_450 (22/03/14 11:54 AM)

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: NitroX]
      #244216 - 22/03/14 03:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Hope you continue to be entertained and ….. perhaps gain some knowledge.







+1

The gent that was the recipient of this extremely arrogant comment has, I believe, more knowledge on all things fine in firearms than you could ever hope to achieve.

I find it odd. Why ask the question, if you are going to ridicule and rebuff the answers.

Going by what you have written, I think I may have your answer.


Problem solved.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244217 - 22/03/14 03:40 PM

Quote:

Called a couple of claw mount experts and was told to make new mounts for a reasonable scope (2.5-10x32 Nightforce), blued and installed would cost about as much as the scope.

Thinking about getting removable fillers made for the bases that could be D&T to mount a Picatinny rail on so I could put super low bases and small objective lens scope on. Could always be put back as there would be no new holes etc.

Anybody solve this already ? Thanks.




When I read this I resisted the urge to say, good idea, just one change, after buying the Nightforce 2.5-10x scope, the picatinny rail mount, just one addition, the Rem 700 to put them on ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244223 - 22/03/14 05:58 PM

Quote:

Those yammering away have yet to produce photos of their suitcase handle scope setups and all the game they have slain with them.




Ok. This is one I just happen to have handy on my phone. This was about 2 weeks ago.



Quote:



Here are a matched pair of R.F. Sedgley deluxe engraved Springfield Sporters in 257 Bob and 30-06 built for a lefty in 1935. Note that they are fine examples of the desire to have the iron sights available with the scopes mounted. Rather like the silly "see thru" rings you see today that instantly brand the rifle's owner as a rank novice.





The above rifle has see thru mounts. Am I a "rank novice"?


.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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lancaster
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #244234 - 22/03/14 11:30 PM

your mauser stutzen is nice

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: lancaster]
      #244238 - 23/03/14 12:36 AM

Quote:

your mauser stutzen is nice



Thank you. It's a Brno mod 22 in 8x57 that I got hold of a couple of months ago. One of the best "pointing" rifles that I've owned.



.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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Ruger_450
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Reged: 10/03/13
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #244243 - 23/03/14 02:38 AM

No HS you are not a "novice". I was speaking of the contemporary "see thru" rings that are being sold so "you can still use the iron sights". As today's scopes are stronger and more reliable than any irons except some military rifles oe express sights, they really make no sense. A classic rifle such as yours, my FN or the Sedgleys that were made that way CAN be used as is but they are not as comfortable as a modern design.

As I have said from the start of this thread, I have no wish to debate the merits of suitcase handle mounting systems.

My objective was to be able to have a more comfortable system yet leave the claw mount bases in place.

I don't wish to argue about this. It appears there are no ideas forthcoming, so I guess it's time to move along.

When I get back to WY and figure out how to do this in a non desuctive manner, I'll be sure to post some pictures.

Thanks.

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6thtexas
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244256 - 23/03/14 07:35 AM

It's Larry Root! He knows everything!

He's been on a couple of other forums along with the photo of that 721.

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Ruger_450
Banned


Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
Re: An FN with a problem [Re: 6thtexas]
      #244257 - 23/03/14 08:32 AM

Yes it is and whom might you be ?

Hardly know everything, but do know this is a site for adults who wish to discuss their favorite subjects.

FYI the 721 has been seen elsewhere as have the R1, the Sedgleys and the Whitworth.

Why their appearance elsewhere is of meaning to you eludes me. They are all fine rifles of various periods to be enjoyed. Hope you have.

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szihn
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Re: An FN with a problem [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244262 - 23/03/14 09:22 AM

Ruger450, where in Wyoming are you?
I am in the Wind River valley.

If you are nearby let me know.

I would agree that the problem is making the choice.
The old claw mounts are cool and classy, but they are not set up for human beings.
The old style claw mounts were designed in the early days when it was thought it was necessary to clear the old style bolt handles and the 3 position wing safeties. Later it was realized the modifying the safety and bolt root was a far batter way to produce the rifles.
If you re-stock the rifle with a high enough comb to give a good cheek weld you will have to cut the stock at the comb nose to clear the bolt when it’s open.
And if you do the stock will look strange even though it would work fine.

Other than removal of the old claw mounts I see no good way to fix this problem. The easiest and the cheapest way is going to be to loose the old mounts.
That answer is a bit painful because the old claw mounts are works of art. Beautifully made, but just not beautifully designed for human shooters. If you have a strong DNA link with a giraffe and have a neck that makes Icabod Crane look stumpy you can use the claw mounts without a problem, but actual humans find them to be best marketed as “One Size Fits No One”

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