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Bidyanus1
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Reged: 12/04/13
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Loc: Adelaide, South Australia
Pressing bullets and molds
      #242717 - 19/02/14 04:30 PM

Howdy Folks.

Ive got a double 450 x 3 1/4" BPE. Its Manton with hammers. It looks like its had a hard life, Its been reblued, new stock, re-crowned, some pitts on the outside of the barrels. But the inside of the barrels look good Ive been trying to regulate it following all the info in Loading for the British Double and other info.

Its shooting all over the place (45 cm circle at 50 metres) with really no group at all, so measured the barrels. 1 is .470 and the other .472. Don't ask me how it got this way but it did. But as I said on the inside the barrels look pretty good.

I thought about getting a new mold made of .470 and have not ruled this out. But I also thought..,...why dont I get a mold made where I can put a jacketed .458 calibre bullet in it. And then with about a 10 ton press, just press the .458 out to the pre made mold size of .470.

Has anyone done that? Was it a success or failure? What do you think?

Yes I know the copper jacketed bullets will be hard on the bore. But the reality is Ill probably only fire 100 or so rounds thru the gun once I get it regulated before I either die or get to old to shoot it.

You may ask; why dont I just paper patch the .458? Because paper patching is a serious pain in the $#@*

Also, as I understand it the copper acts like a patch improving accuracy.

Over to you...........

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Viking338
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Bidyanus1]
      #242728 - 19/02/14 08:56 PM

Hi Bidyanus, I am a little confused as to your spread of shots. Have you slugged the bore all the way to the muzzle. I am no expert by any stretch but is there more wear at the muzzle for instance? Thus giving you a large spread. I would have thought each individual barrel would still group better than that even if you couldn't regulate them easily considering the difference in bore measurement.
Excuse me if my questions are to simplistic and you have already looked these issues I ask also for my own education and knowledge gain in these matters, I also hope you find a solution through shared knowledge on this site.

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Huvius
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Viking338]
      #242733 - 20/02/14 12:46 AM

You could press bullets to increase their diameter with a die and a hammer as described in Wright's book.
Will your fired cases allow a bullet of .470" to chamber?
If you have any .45ACP brass laying around, they are about .470" and if your fired brass will accept one, can give you an idea if that size bullet will even chamber. (of course, if a .470" bullet is what you need, they can be made out of .45ACP brass too)
You may be in a position where your barrels want a bigger bullet but your chamber may not allow it.

Have you tried a load using black powder?
If your bullets are cast soft enough, they may bump up and fill the grooves better.

Also, if you are dead set against paper patching, I would stick with cast grease groove bullets. It would get pretty expensive experimenting with Woodleigh BPE bullets and you may be chasing your tail with harder jacketed bullets.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Huvius]
      #242738 - 20/02/14 02:35 AM

When shooting ctg. brass converted to bullets, anneal them totally, leaving the fired primer. At least, that is how I do this.

Huvius' idea of the .45ACP empty is a good one - if they are available at your range.

I agree that the proper size, in lead is the way to go. To paper patch a soft lead bullet, you would need around a .460" bullet to start with.

Friend of mine with a .500 BPE double used the pointy Lyman 450gr. bullet. Both his barrels would print into 8" at 100yards, but individual barrel groups were 2 1/2". He used a case of GOEX 3F black powder, card and lube wad as well, iirc.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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dpcd67
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: DarylS]
      #242746 - 20/02/14 04:11 AM

Yes, I have swaged bullets up and down to fit a particular bore. Swaging a .458 bullet up to .470 might be possible, but a better way might be to swage a .474 bullet down to 470. Look at .475 pistol bullets for your BP express. Call Corbin; they are the biggest bullet swaging equipment company on earth. Not cheap though. Cast bullets is the way I would go. Check NEI if they are still in business; they used to make all sizes of bullet molds. Other guys will make custom molds too.

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4seventy
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Bidyanus1]
      #242756 - 20/02/14 08:53 AM

Bidyanus1,
Yes you can swage .458" bullets up to .470", and you can also draw .474" bullets down to .470".
However in your case you would need to be certain that the chamber neck of both barrels will accept such a large increase in diameter.

Seating a .470" bullet in place of a .458" bullet, will increase the cartridge neck diameter by .012".

While the groove diameter of your barrels may be oversize by that amount, the chamber neck/s may not.
The cartridge/s might not chamber at all, or far worse might chamber with the cartridge necks jammed tight in the chamber/s, causing a big increase in pressures.

I suggest you measure the chamber neck diameters of both barrels before even thinking about using .470" bullets in your double.

Please keep us up to date on what you find.

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Bidyanus1
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Reged: 12/04/13
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: dpcd67]
      #242757 - 20/02/14 09:18 AM

OK
Ill try to answer all the questions
No questions are simple
Im using 2F black powder
have used 100 grain, 110 grains and 120 grains and various bullet weight. The best so far was the 110 grains of 2f with a lighter projectile. I just forget the exact weight. The worst was 120 grains of BP
The standard loads for a 450 x 3 1/4' BPE was 110 grains of BP with a projectile weight of between 270 to 350 grains.
The right barrel although the biggest shoots to best
I have not thought about swagging the 475 bullets down,
Where is Corbin? Im not rich but if I have to spend the money then that's what have to do.
I have not slugged the bore all the way to the muzzle. Ill do that
Ill have to check to see if a 470m cal bullet will chamber
OK I need to get Wrights book and read that re swagging with a hammer
Not quite sure how hard the bullets but I can cast then soft and Ill try to stick with lead bullets
If/when I get my dies made Ill make sure they have grease grooves. (Im not going to die in a ditch about not paper patching but Ill avoid it if at all possible :):)
Thanks so far for all your input, Ive got lots to think about

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DarylS
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Bidyanus1]
      #242760 - 20/02/14 10:25 AM

Here's a fired .45 ACP case- fired primer left in. Beside it are 2 .440" Hornady swaged round pure lead balls for a muzzleloading rifle. I pushed both balls into the case, then used my bench vice to lightly push the top one in until it stopped, making sure both were bottomed in the case.
The resulting "bullet" weighs 345gr. and measures 470" (I sized it originally in my .45 ACP Lyman carbide die. If a pair of .445" balls are used instead of the .440", the resulting 'bullet's weight will be approximately 350gr.- at least that is what I got.


After seating the balls, either .440" or .445", I ran them into the .45ACP die again just to get rid of any bulging.

A .45 calibre bullet of 250gr. or more, could be seated in the case and a .45auto crimp die could be used for the final crimp, of course - either a strong taper crimp or roll crimp, whichever is desired.

I've shot this type of projectile in several guns - .358's are made from .30 MI Carbine brass, .375's from .223 brass and .458's are made from .303 Brit (rim turned off) and .35 Remington brass.

All of these 'experiments' have shot into 2" or less at 100 meters - usually 1 1/4" to 1.5".

Here-to-for, I've poured the cores from pure or WW alloys, then use a die from my die stock to round or crimp the cores. Checking ctg. base and shoulder diameters can give you an idea what dies will work. it is good to use the shoulders inside the die as the case shoulder angle can give a nice turn-in on the bullet's nose. Annealing the case used for the the bullet helps a lot when sizing them as the become dead soft - no spring-back.






Edited by Daryl_S (20/02/14 01:34 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: DarylS]
      #242820 - 21/02/14 03:06 AM

Note - just made a few more, simply using the .45 ACP die set.

Using the taper crimp die, pior to the rolled crimp die, gives a nicer finish to the case mouth.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bidyanus1
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: DarylS]
      #242829 - 21/02/14 09:10 AM

Impressive and worth consideration!! have you shot this at anything that was alive because the reason Im trying to get my 450 correct is so I can hunt with it....Sambar Deer

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Bidyanus1
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Bidyanus1]
      #242831 - 21/02/14 11:08 AM

Oh, and as suggested by some others Im getting the muzzel, breach and chambers all measured. Fortunately Ive good a good friend who is a toolmaker with his own business who is going to measure everything up for me. When Ive got that data ill then make some more decisions

Thus far cheers and thanks for EVERYONES input

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4seventy
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Bidyanus1]
      #242832 - 21/02/14 11:25 AM

Quote:


why dont I get a mold made where I can put a jacketed .458 calibre bullet in it. And then with about a 10 ton press, just press the .458 out to the pre made mold size of .470.




You don't need a big press for this.

Quite a few years ago, just for fun I knocked up a very basic swage die from scrap mild steel, to bump 350 gn .458" round nose Hornady bullets up to .474", to shoot in my .470 double.

I just used a 5" bench vice to expand the bullet into the die.

In the photo, with the two bullets together, the one on the right is the standard .458" and on the left is one resized to .474". The one in the mike is also resized to .474"

One shot from each barrel will go into 1 1/2" at 50 yards, and they seem to hold together ok on game.

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DarylS
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: 4seventy]
      #242839 - 21/02/14 12:28 PM

My only testing with these 'home made bullets' was into a green railway tie at -40 degrees.

My .458 2" Mauser was driving these 480gr. bullets at just over 2,000fps impact speed.

The WW core bullet made 14 1/2" into the tie, and the pure lead core went 12 1/2". they made from 1" (hard core) to 1 1/2" (soft core) permanent cavities in the railway tie. That green tie was as hard as glass! Both bullets went through steel-like knots in the wood. I could barely dent the knots with the hammer end of the splitting axe.

I got the idea for these bullets from dear old John Buhmiller back in the 1970's. John was an African hunter, ctg. designer, gun maker and close friend & employer of Lester H. Hawkes both from Kalispell Montana - many decades ago. Les and Irene Hawkes later became a very close friends of both my wife after they moved near Smithers, B.C. 'Old John' called these ctg. case bullets, his "Mouse Hole Makers". Such memories come flooding back - thank you.

I would have absolutely no qualms about shooting game with these home made bullets.

I think one with the double ball bullets might give both excellent expansion and penetration, but for big game like Stags, I'd most likely set & crimp a 250gr. bullet into that .45 ACP case, instead and be assured of excellent penetration. along with expansion. A 50/50 WW/pure lead would be my choice for a core.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Englishman
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: DarylS]
      #242895 - 22/02/14 10:55 PM

Daryl_s
What a brilliant idea, I can see the reasoning behind leaving the fired primer in place, did you use any form of gas seal wad behind the projectile ? And have you recovered any fired projectiles from water/snow to see how they stand up to pressure up the rear ? In all a really good use for spent cases, very many thanks for sharing! I must try it.
Chris.

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DarylS
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Englishman]
      #242915 - 23/02/14 04:45 AM

Here are some .458's - the ones I recovered from the railway rail bed tie along with one 480gr. unfired. To the far right is a 200gr. .375 recovered from a lengthwise shot into a large Aspen log. It went approximately 18".
The copper tubing, was cut from a length of normal 3/8" copper pipe. I have an old mould I bored 3/8" (boring out the grease grooves) but leaving the ogive. Placing a cut-off piece of pipe into the mould, then casting the bullet gives you a jacketed bullet with a pure lead jacket. The flashing form the cuttoff, leaves enough of a flashing to lock this jacket into/onto the poured core. I lost interest in this after firing just a few - they worked just fine.

I forgot to mention, after cleaning the cuttoff cases for pouring the cores, I lightly wiped the inside with soldering flux to obtain somewhat of a bonded core - it seems to have worked! The really balled up .458, was the pure lead cored bullet. It's jacket was made from a 're-sized .250 Savage case - lots of pressure needed to reduce it to .458, but it worked. I used RCBS lube sizing dies for this in a bench vice - hard on the die and potential to break it. A better scenario would be to simply use sized .303, .35 Remington or .30/40 Krag brass. The .35 Rem does not need the rim turned off - but used .35 rem brass is hard to find - thus - .303's get the nod at .457".





--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (23/02/14 04:52 AM)

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4seventy
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Bidyanus1]
      #242928 - 23/02/14 10:38 AM

Quote:

Oh, and as suggested by some others Im getting the muzzel, breach and chambers all measured. Fortunately Ive good a good friend who is a toolmaker with his own business who is going to measure everything up for me. When Ive got that data ill then make some more decisions





Bidyanus,
Getting back to your barrel measurements, there is a good chance that the bore and groove is tapered, with a larger diameter at the breech compared to the muzzle.
Apparently some BP doubles were built with the taper from new, in an effort to reduce problems with fouling.

This is described in Graeme Wrights book in the black powder section.

This means that if you measured .470" and .472" at the breech end of the barrels, they could measure a fair bit tighter at the muzzles.

Graeme also points out that some of the rifling types from that era can make it difficult to obtain accurate bore and groove measurement.

If you don't already have a copy of "Shooting The British Double Rifle" by Graeme, now in it's 3rd edition, I would suggest you get hold of a copy.
There is a hell of a lot of valuable information in that book, and it is all based on many years of genuine double rifle experience.
He also describes how he has dealt with accuracy problems in BP rifles similar to the situation you have with yours.

It will be interesting to hear about the dimensions of your barrels when your friend gets a chance to check them for you.

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DarylS
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: 4seventy]
      #242935 - 23/02/14 12:10 PM

Yes good point, 4seventy - most important to know what the bores and groove diameters are, I'd think, especially in thin walled barrels.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bidyanus1
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: DarylS]
      #242969 - 24/02/14 08:47 AM

Ok Ive got around to measuring the barrels with 2 lead bullets I swagged thru
left barrel .466 - .468
right barrel .473 - .475

I also took the sulfur graphite molds of both breeches and both muzzels

I yet to seriously look at and measure these

Please keep the info coming
Cheers
Pete

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4seventy
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Re: Pressing bullets and molds [Re: Bidyanus1]
      #243036 - 25/02/14 04:50 PM

It will be interesting to see if the rifles chamber neck/s will allow you to use larger than standard diameter projectiles.
You will also need to measure your cartridge case neck wall thickness.

We'll have to see what your chamber cast measurements show.

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