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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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sparks1
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Ed. Kettner single shot
      #240531 - 13/01/14 06:06 AM

Local Cabelas has an Ed Kettner single shot bolt action rifle in the gun library. Dandy rifle, but asking $999.99!

Condition is about 60% in my opinion. Stock is deeply scratched, dented. Buttplate has large chip in it. Receiver finish worn badly, though fluted barrel has great blueing yet. Caliber unknown according to them.

Asking too much, IMO.

Agree or disagree?

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ellenbr
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: sparks1]
      #240536 - 13/01/14 09:13 AM

Maybe not - I'd guess it was chambered in 8.15x46 1/2, but a chamber cast will yield the demon. Lovely offset bases.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:22 PM)

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sparks1
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: ellenbr]
      #240542 - 13/01/14 12:29 PM

I really do not know values, so that is why I put this up. I could not put up pictures, the computer won this round.
Crown over a "U" on bolt, receiver. Definitely not a 6.5mm (tried a bullet in the bore) They think it is a 32-20 cal.

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ellenbr
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: sparks1]
      #240543 - 13/01/14 12:46 PM

So are you saying it followed you home? Nah, not 32-20 unless some later alteration. Take a toothpick or something akin and see where the rifling begins to get an idea of case length. Forward the images to be & I'll gladly post them for you.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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John303
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: ellenbr]
      #240544 - 13/01/14 01:19 PM

Interesting rifle, I hope more pics are forth coming. Looks like it's based on a 71-84 Mauser.
The price doesn't seem that outrages, would need to see the gun of course. Add up all the work
and it might seem cheap. JMHO --- John

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sparks1
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: John303]
      #240549 - 13/01/14 02:24 PM

Sadly it did not come home with me. Being without the funds due to recent M/S purchases and not knowing the value of this. I am currently researching past auctions to get a feel for it's value on the market so I may know in case one comes in the future. Perhaps I should take the .270 M/S in for a trade, if you gentlemen think Cabelas price is proper.

Best I can do is post a link that has pictures. Though it says sold, I personally handled this rifle today.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Edward-Kettner-Single-Shot-Possible/1672201.uts

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Edited by sparks1 (13/01/14 02:46 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: John303]
      #240555 - 13/01/14 05:41 PM

Quote:

Interesting rifle, I hope more pics are forth coming. Looks like it's based on a 71-84 Mauser.
The price doesn't seem that outrages, would need to see the gun of course. Add up all the work
and it might seem cheap. JMHO --- John



think its a mini mauser 71 or is it a repeating rifle?
8,15x46R

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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sparks1
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #240568 - 13/01/14 11:27 PM

Single shot rifle, split bridge receiver.
Thinking on it, the wear/scratches are the norm for one this old. God knows I'm a bit scratchy.
How much does refurbishing this devalue it? Stock sand and refinish.

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Integrity is easier to keep, than to regain.

Edited by sparks1 (13/01/14 11:35 PM)

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John303
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: sparks1]
      #240569 - 14/01/14 01:29 AM

Let's just say it is a Mauser. The pics. on Cabelas are gone at least for me.
I'd say from the description barring any unseen flaws it was priced cheap IMHO.
Stock & the word sand make me a bit "scratchy", to each his own however, but stripping
the old finish off is a much better route.
I don't think a refurb, done properly, would decrease the value at all - it might go
the other way. It all depends on your abilities / your wallet.
On the other hand you can just leave things alone, do a good cleaning and let the
dings & scratches speak for the years themselves. --- John

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ellenbr
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: John303]
      #240576 - 14/01/14 03:31 AM


Little fuzzy image of an image


Still a bit fuzzy


German Stecher



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:23 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: ellenbr]
      #240578 - 14/01/14 05:07 AM

such Mini Mauser 71 rifles were build around Suhl in endless varieties before 1914













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:24 PM)

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sparks1
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #240580 - 14/01/14 07:31 AM

As always, very informative.
Thanks

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John303
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: sparks1]
      #240581 - 14/01/14 07:53 AM

I too want to thank you for the pics. etc. very informative. This ? might be OT but does anyone have a diagram / pic. of how the DSTs are set up. I have a 71-84 & and a trigger set (not the normal 98 Mauser style), I would like to install them and some insight into the "how to" would be appreciated. --- John

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ellenbr
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: John303]
      #240582 - 14/01/14 08:13 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfDD0Awx8s

Might be in German? Have not run it thru speakers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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DarylS
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: ellenbr]
      #240584 - 14/01/14 08:41 AM

My late buddy Brad had one of these Mausers V-fancy with a lot of engraving - on the M71 pattern, in a 9.5mm - we cerrosafe'd the chamber and found a necked down & shortened slightly, .45/70 case worked very well with 250gr. bullets from an RCBS mould.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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sparks1
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: DarylS]
      #240585 - 14/01/14 09:31 AM

Decided to take my 1952 Winchester M75 in and try horse trading this week. Only one opinion on value of this rifle.
Are there any other educated ones? IF I get it, there will only be a clean up done. I decided it's wear marks would be a part of it's history, thus a shame to erase them.

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lancaster
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #240605 - 14/01/14 03:26 PM

Quote:







Daryl, I would say what you have there is the "Schützenpatrone" 9,5x47R or like in the old pic above 9 1/2 x47

after the 8,15x46R the most used target cartridge and based on the 11,15x60R Mauser case

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:24 PM)

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chapmen
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #240647 - 15/01/14 04:58 AM

Here is an very similar one from Anschütz, just sold on egun for 208 euro:















--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:25 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: chapmen]
      #240655 - 15/01/14 06:48 AM

imho a bargain, sold to you?
maybe reactionary (I dont care ) but it must be a special pleasure to hunt the red buck with such a loveable single shot

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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chapmen
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #240656 - 15/01/14 07:09 AM

Poorly i missed the end of the auction. 208 euro is an real good price, i dont thought that it will go under 500 euro......

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some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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sparks1
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: chapmen]
      #240661 - 15/01/14 09:31 AM

Nice. Trouble is, importing to the USA and shipping, I imagine ones costs go up tremendously. But it is good to know the price.

Found an identical one that sold in Illinois, USA (1-1-2014)for $1100.00. This one was mint condition, case hardening was perfect along with the rest of the rifle. 8.15x46R,

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DarylS
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: sparks1]
      #240662 - 15/01/14 09:40 AM

Daryl, I would say what you have there is the "Schützenpatrone" 9,5x47R or like in the old pic above 9 1/2 x47

after the 8,15x46R the most used target cartridge and based on the 11,15x60R Mauser case

Absolutely - that is it. The action is nickel plated and fairly heavily engraved, iirc.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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chapmen
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: DarylS]
      #240679 - 15/01/14 07:09 PM

An interesting point on the Anschuetz rifle is the late proof date-1943.
Also the special sign "Kupfermantel" - copperjacket, normally bore diameter was made deeper for lead
bullets.

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some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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kuduae
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: chapmen]
      #240684 - 15/01/14 09:27 PM

Quote:

An interesting point on the Anschuetz rifle is the late proof date-1943.
Also the special sign "Kupfermantel" - copperjacket, normally bore diameter was made deeper for lead bullets.


As the rifle shows the 1940 - 1945 Eagle/I = Instandsetzungsbeschuss = reproof, it was merely reprooofed for the then current 8.15 x46R smokeless factory load. The caliber marking and the IG Anschütz stamp are also in accordance with the 1940 proof law. IMHO a much older rifle, originally proofed for black and lead only, was submitted to the proofhouse in 1943 by IG Anschütz, Zella-Mehlis. I have seen several 8.15x46R rifles reproofed after 1940.
Daryl, the 8.15x46R case is not based on the M71 Mauser. It's based on a shortened .360 case. I have successfully made, like many others, 8.15x46R cases from .30-30 brass, shortened and resized.

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DarylS
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: kuduae]
      #240696 - 16/01/14 03:20 AM

I was talking about the 9.5x47mm case, kuduae, not the 8.15x46R - the only 8.15X46R's were on ADYT or AYDT (?) single shot rifles.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: DarylS]
      #240697 - 16/01/14 03:24 AM

This is my 1871/76 carbine re-chambered to .450 Alaskan.






--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:27 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: DarylS]
      #240703 - 16/01/14 07:29 AM

Quote:

the only 8.15X46R's were on ADYT or AYDT (?) single shot rifles.


No, Daryl. After Adolph Frohn, Suhl, designed this cartridge after 1890, it soon became the standard German centerfire target cartridge and remained so until WW2. It's main advantages were: It was available everywhere. It was easily reloadable, pre-packed powder charges and swaged lead bullets in many weights available from the ammunition companies.
So it was chambered in all types of rifles, even some combination guns and drillings are known. Tom Rowe published 2 books, "Alte Scheibenwaffen I and II", on the various German target rifle actions. Though most of them were Falling blocks like the Aydt, the various Büchels, Nimrod and so on, others were variations of the basic Martini action like the Frohn, Stahl or Kessler. Nearly all these actions were made in 8.15x46R too. Cheaper sporting rifles, used for less formal target shooting and small game hunting up to roe deer, in 8.15x46R were buit on Tell-type break-open actions and these simplified Mauser M71 type actions. If you look at the catalog pages shown by Lancaster in this thread, you find the Normalhülse = standard case 8.15x46R among most caliber offerings.
These simplified M71 type actions are not sporterized Military actions and were not made by Mauser. Instead, they were a staple of the Suhl and, even more so, the Zella-Mehlis guntrade up to WW1. Usually they omitted the M71 bolt stop screw, the sear serving as a bolt stop, and often the Mauser flag safety too. They were made by many makers there in all sizes from giant for 12 gauge Vogelbüchsen to tiny ones for pistol-sized rook and rabbit cartridges. Here is such a miniature action by Sauer & Sohn, pre-1893, in 7x20R "Z", essentially a .32 long Colt case tapered down. As you see, the action is much too small for the 8.15x46R, top photo, but would fit a .32-20, bottom.



Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:28 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: DarylS]
      #240706 - 16/01/14 07:50 AM

Quote:

This is my 1871/76 carbine re-chambered to .450 Alaskan.


You are only confusing people with your 1871/76 "model" designation. There never was such a "model". 1876, as on your carbine, is merely the date of manufacture and acceptance. Such dates were necessary to identify a certain gun in the German military numbering system, as each factory restarted with number 1 each new fiscal year. The correct designation for the action is "Mod.71", as marked on the left side of the receiver. Here you can also see the original configuration of your gun: I.G. stands for Infantrie Gewehr, J.B. for Jägerbüchse ("Jäger" is not only hunter, but the German name for light infantry, called "Rifles" in Britain and "Rangers" in America), Car. for carbine of course. Yes, there was a Mod.71/84 later, marked such on the left side of the receiver, but this was a repeater with tubular magazine.

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chapmen
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: kuduae]
      #240735 - 16/01/14 07:18 PM

What i meand is the late reproof date, sure the rifle itself is much older. But for me it is interesting that it was proofed again in 1943, middle of ww2.
For my opinion it was used for hunting, not for use as trainingrifle ore rifle for the hunting type matches like "running boar", tipical this rifles were used with lead bullets. The "J" stamp says that something was changed, i think it was reborred to get the bore dia for copperjacket bullets.
An interesting question would be if there are any older proofmarks, also it is possible that an new barrel was used in 1943 with the old system.
These two points would give an meaning for me to use the J proofmark.

( sorry for my english......)

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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DarylS
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Re: Ed. Kettner single shot [Re: chapmen]
      #240760 - 17/01/14 02:44 AM

Thanks for the clarification on models and shipping dates kuduae - without this sort of input, one does not learn.

The only 8.15X46R's I've seen (probably only around 1/2 dozen of them in total, were the single shot target rifles (Aydt, I think they were called).

My model 71 - marked on the right side, 1876 1876 is marked on the left side, as you said - Mod. 71 (or what looks like Mod. 71)

I do know it differs from the model 71's marked 1884, in that the 1884's appear to have .446" groove diameters, whereas the 1876 I have, has a .458" groove diameter, even though chambered for the same round with a .446" bullet - thus my choice in rechambering the rifle to a .45 calibre round.

Initially it had a .437" bore and .457" groove diameter. After re-chambering and firing 40 firelapping loads it now measures .438" X .458".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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