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coues
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Reged: 04/03/03
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USO lawyer letter to AZGF
      #24027 - 13/01/05 01:14 PM

James R. Scarantino Attorney At Law 714 Montc1aire NE · Albuquerque, NM 87110 (505) 250-8754 · (505) 232-4515 Fax


December 22, 2004 Duane L. Shroufe Director Arizona Game and Fish Department 2221 W. Greenway Road Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399

Re: Proposed License/Tag Fee Ceiling Increases

Dear Director Shroufe:

I write on behalf of United States Outfitters and its many nonresident clients. We wish to share our views on the proposed statutory increases to the license/tag fee ceilings. While we understand that the proposal is phrased merely as an increase in the fee ceilings, we cannot overlook the fact that once the ceilings are raised by the Legislature, the Commission by rule making may then set the fees at any level within that range. Therefore, we view the request to increase the fee ceilings as a request by the Commission for authority to at some point in time increase the actual fees to the maximum level authorized by the Legislature.

The growing real disparity between resident and nonresident fees as reflected in the proposals is cause for great concern. Nonresidents already are being unfairly burdened by having to pay much more for the same opportunity to hunt game. This unfairness is made even worse by the fact that the majority of those hunting opportunities take place on federal public lands, lands owned and supported equally by all Americans, regardless of their place of residence. There are limits to the extent to which nonresidents can be expected to tolerate and overlook being subjected to discrimination. The proposed fee increases exceed the limits of tolerance.

Under the proposal a nonresident could be charged $775 for the same bull elk hunt for which, at most, a resident would only be charged $150. In the case of a premium bull elk tag, nonresidents could be charged as much as $3200, compared to only $350 for residents. Further examples of outrageous disparities are found throughout the proposed fee ceiling table being circulated for comments, including but not limited to the proposals concerning deer, premium deer, antelope and bighorn sheep license/tag fees.

We also wish to object to the fact that the spread between nonresident and resident could be increasing. For instance, currently nonresidents pay five times more for an antelope tag than residents. Under the proposal, nonresidents could be paying 7 times as much.

Duane L. Shroufe December 22, 2004 Page Two

Under the current fee structure, nonresidents pay 5.13 times as much as residents for a bighorn sheep tag. The proposal could increase this differential to a factor of 8.96. Nonresidents may currently purchase Class G General licenses for 4.45 times as much as the resident rate. Under the proposal, they could have to pay as much as 5.3 times for the same license. And, by way of one more example, currently residents pay 4.03 times as much as residents for a Class F Combination license. Under the proposal, they will have to pay nearly $100 more, whereas residents would at most face only a $16 additional levy.

The sheer difference in the amount that could be charged residents versus nonresidents is what makes the proposals unacceptable. There is no rational basis for the disparities. The true costs to society of a bull elk hunt, for example, are not reflected in the amount that residents could be charged. The same holds true for other species. Furthermore, it does not cost hundreds or thousands of dollars more to administer a nonresident deer, bull elk or premium bull elk hunt than it costs to administer similar resident hunts. The only plausible explanation for the differential is to (a) force nonresidents to increase their subsidy of resident hunting on federal public lands and elsewhere in Arizona and (b) to intentionally discriminate against nonresidents in access to hunting opportunities.

The disparities are so extreme we believe they are also intended as a means of defying the District Court's decision in Montova v. Shroufe. There exist many recorded declarations, including statements from the Commission, that nonresident fees would be raised to punitive levels as another means of excluding nonresidents and also retaliating against nonresidents for daring to successfully vindicate their federal constitutional rights.

Even under the United States Supreme Court decision in Baldwin v. Montana Game and Fish Commission, there are limits to the degree to which nonresidents may be subjected to discriminatory fee structures. As I need not remind you, in light of the Ninth Circuit's ruling in Conservation Force v. Manning, nonresidents can challenge Arizona's discriminatory fees under Commerce Clause strict scrutiny. Arizona would have to prove that it had no other means to serve its legitimate purposes of maintaining resident hunting opportunity and conserving wildlife except to charge the precise discriminatory fees being charged nonresidents. It would have to demonstrate that no lesser range of nonresident fees would serve those purposes. I do not think I overstate the case when I say that such a burden would be impossible to meet.

Losing a Commerce Clause challenge to discriminatory fee structures would not only expose Arizona to sizable claims for attorney fees, it would also expose Arizona to claims for monetary damages, and certainly refunds with interest to all nonresidents who had paid the discriminatory fee. This would impose additional legal and administrative costs upon the Department that would be better spent in game conservation programs.

Nonresidents already bear a disproportionate share of the costs of game management in Arizona. They do not mind paying more to some reasonable extent. But, as I said when I addressed the Commission in Safford, there are limits to nonresidents' tolerance. The Duane L. Shroufe December 22, 2004 Page Three

Commission cannot act unreasonably and expect nonresidents to acquiesce in being mistreated and callously exploited.

I note that in the explanation you have given for the fee ceiling proposals, you point to the fact that license sales fell 16% from 1998through 2003. This drop-off occurred during the period of time the Department was vigorously resisting allowing any more licenses to be sold to nonresidents. To some extent, the Department and Commission must accept responsibility for the fiscal pressures behind the need to raise license sales. Had the Department negotiated a reasonable increase in nonresident access when we first invited settlement in 1997, it likely would not be facing the same fiscal pressures it confronts today. Moreover, if the Department were to factor into its calculations increased sales to nonresidents, at fair rather than punitive license fee levels, I think you would find even less justification for the astronomical ceilings proposed for nonresident licenses. The Department could continue to benefit from nonresident subsidy of resident hunting, without forcing nonresidents to take legal action to protect their rights.

We also strongly believe that residents need to begin to pay more of a fair price for the privilege of hunting big game. There are real costs to preserving habitat and raising a large game animal to maturity. The fair market value of big game hunts is far above what residents are currently paying, or will be paying under the ceiling increase proposals. Making residents realize the true costs of game management will have the salutary result of promoting greater interest in increasing hunting opportunities by conserving more wildlife habitat. The real force driving up the costs of hunting is the conflict between an exploding human population and the need for more wildlife habitat. Nonresidents are not the cause of increased resident hunting fees; they have been and will likely continue to be a moderating force that helps hunting continue to be an affordable activity. Nonresident tolerance for the extent to which they are being exploited is, however, reaching a breaking point, leaving litigation as their only recourse.

We believe the entire proposal should be reconsidered. The Department's needs for expanded funding should be addressed with fairness to nonresidents in mind, as well as adherence to the legal restraints against discriminating against nonresidents in their access to hunting opportunities.

We hope you and the Commission will take these comments into consideration in reformulating your approach to future license fee structures.

Sincerely,

JAMES R. SCARANTINO




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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: coues]
      #24067 - 14/01/05 05:58 AM

I'm not sure how anyone else here feels about the USO lawsuit, but I cannot agree that a non-resident has the same right to game as local hunters, especially those relying the game for subsistance. What USO is doing is just wrong to me.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: DPhillips]
      #24114 - 14/01/05 03:35 PM

Dave

It is interesting to note that in addition to resident and non-resident permit prices, that there is usually a third level for foreignors wanting to buy a tag, which usually can only be done through an outfitter at a MUCH higher price.

I'm not commenting at all on the right or wrongs of this but merely comparing it to other countries and sometimes differential pricing as well. Where the other countries DO get criticised for the same thing.

As for your question on the face of it I think residents of an area should have hunting opportunities and your sort of system allows that. The outfiiters probably just want not to not have to pay higher prices as most clients would not be locals.

It works both ways too. When a person hunts in another state, don't they then also become a non-resident?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: NitroX]
      #24158 - 15/01/05 04:51 AM

That's correct John. The issue being though, that in many of the western states, the majority of huntable lands are tied up in the public domain. Since many of these places are known for elk or mule deer or something besides what the majority of the U.S. population can hunt, the amount of tags issued are limited. That's just good game management and a fact of life. With the number of tags issued being less than ideal for the residents of the state, some will be able to hunt and some will not, usually controlled through the permit drawing process. As it as been in Arizona and many western states, the residents of the state or areas, had some type of preference whether it be limiting the amount of tags going to out of state hunters or having preference points. This lawsuit and ruling says that is illegal. So what we have is the locals that have to hunt public lands don't have any more right to the game in their neighborhood than someone living thousands of miles away, even if tags are cheaper. The probability of securing those tags are the same for local, state resident, or non-state resident. For someone that lives there year around and pays taxes for all the infrastructure to get from where they are from to the public hunting lands, it just doesn't seem right. There is the possibility, small as it is, that no Arizona residents might be be drawn for a tag in Arizona.

What about the future of hunting? The likelihood of a father and son being drawn in one of the limited area hunts, even if it is in their locale, is small. I just cannot agree that someone from New York City or Miami Florida have the same right to game animals as the guy that has lived there year around or his whole life. It would be fine if the number of animals could support the locals being able to be drawn for a tag, but they can't.

Alaska does not have preference points, nor do we limit the number of tags for out of staters or non-resident aliens. There will be places in my locale that I will likely never get to hunt. It's not a big problem to me because I can afford to go somewhere else. A lot of people that live my little community cannot afford to do so. The number of hunters in our little hamlet has decreased dramatically over the years because of this.

It's not like you can get a great job and buy some of this land near where you live either. It's controlled by the Federal government and not for sale. However, the most restricted Federal lands are our national parks, but the people that live within the boundaries of the national park can hunt game there for subsistance purposes. That is not the case in these drawing areas. I fail to see the difference.

Cost does not prohibit tags from being secured or applied for by non-residents. Most cases, the tags are less than the airfare to get there. Game should be managed by the states for the rights and use of its citizens, not for someone that wants to hang a head on the wall.

USO isn't even a company from Arizona, the outfit is out of New Mexico, if I'm not mistaken. Yet they are sueing Arizona to tell them how to manage their wildlife resources. It's just not right in my honest opinion.


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luv2safari
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Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: DPhillips]
      #24252 - 16/01/05 11:07 AM

You bet your sweet ass this is wrong. There are going to be a bunch of USO guides hides on our Western barns before this thing is over. They are fair game with no protection as far as I'm concerned. I can't even get an elk tag in my home State after 45 years of putting in ...every damned year and paying the administration fees for my applications. I get a resident deer tag in our draw about every 2 1/2 years and an antelope every 12-14 years. Now, because of these USO maggots, 4 of 10 tags go to out of Staters who have contributed absolutely NOTHING to improving and preserving hunting and habitat.

We have declared open season on you, USO! Watch your asses!!
I am convinced there will be someone killed over this issue before a sane federal judge rules. The moron federal judge that ruled against States Rights is in dire danger in my opinion. Not all hunters are as law abiding as I am, and it will take just one realy pissed off nut to snuff this moron judge. That will make everything even worse...a disaster for all good and ethical sportsmen...

It has come time for all Americans of common sense to push through a Constitutional Amendment to deny federal judges their life tenure. They take bribes and graft, push through their political agendas, and become demi-gods...all because we can't remove them from the bench. The founding fathers sure blew this one!!!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: luv2safari]
      #24269 - 16/01/05 02:24 PM

There may be some relief coming, via Nevada, Montana and Alaska:
In reply to:

Because of the ruling of the 9th Circuit Court in the USO vs. State of Arizona decision, Senators Reid (Nevada), Nelson (Nebraska), Baucus (Montana), Burns (Montana), Ensign (Nevada), and Stevens (Alaska) are sponsoring a bill to restore State's the rights to manage fish and game populations and issue permits as the Fish and Game departments see fit.

108th CONGRESS

2d Session

S. 2978
Relating to State regulation of access to hunting and fishing.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

October 11, 2004

Mr. REID (for himself, Mr. NELSON of Nebraska, Mr. BAUCUS, Mr. BURNS, Mr. STEVENS and Mr. ENSIGN) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A BILL

Relating to State regulation of access to hunting and fishing.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. STATE REGULATION OF ACCESS TO HUNTING AND FISHING.

(a) DECLARATION OF POLICY- Congress hereby declares that--

(1) the continued regulation of access to hunting and fishing by the several States is in the public interest; and

(2) silence on the part of Congress shall not be construed to impose any commerce clause barrier to the regulation of such activities by the several States.

(b) STATE REGULATION OF ACCESS TO HUNTING AND FISHING- The licensing of hunting and fishing, or of other access thereto, and every person engaged in hunting or fishing, shall be subject to the laws of the several States which relate to the regulation of such activities.

(c) CONSTRUCTION- No Act of Congress shall be construed to invalidate, impair, or supersede any law enacted by any State for the purpose of regulating the access to hunting and fishing unless such Act specifically so states.






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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: DPhillips]
      #24756 - 21/01/05 11:44 AM

Maybe politicians are good for something after all...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 52
Loc: Porter, Texas
Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: DPhillips]
      #24984 - 24/01/05 12:56 AM

DPhillips,
Interesting point..

az,NM and nev, are all MOSTLY public lands that are hunted. My taxes, and I am a texas resident, pay for those lands as well (in comparision, there's no us government public lands of appricable % in texas), I should get a discount to hunt there?

Just kidding on that part...

I used toi hunt, every year, in lousianna, as the licencing fee was a MERE 9 times what my texas hunting license was (20 bucks in texas and 184 in LA for basic hunting, fishing.. and in LA, "big game".... (that's deer and turkey)

I QUIT hunting there, even though it's the most reasonable place for me to, as the fees TREBLLED in one year (550)... with no "short term" non-resident hunting license available

the reciprecation of texas, btw, is a 25 or 25 dollar 5 days license,, or about 150 for the year...


Here's my beef..
it should not cost a nonresident 10 times or more what it costs a resident to hunt in a state.. period... if it's a fair price for a resident to bag animals for a $100, what should the price be if there are NO nonresidents shooting?

I am a little bitchy on this subject, as I SHOULD be recognized as a native american, and not required to have the stupid thing anyway... but that's another story

jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #24998 - 24/01/05 05:26 AM

Jeffe,
I can agree that non-resident tags or licenses are extremely high and out of proportion. What I don't agree with is that non-residents have the exact same right as residents, especially local residents, to pursue the game of any given state. I have no issue if resident and non-resident tags were the same price, provided those that live in the state were able to hunt. As it stands in Arizona, there could be a chance that because a non-resident is granted a tag, it displaces the hunting opportunities for the residents. If an AZ resident is not drawn for an elk or muledeer in many places, then the resident does not get to hunt big game period.

In Alaska, this isn't as big of deal, as there are many areas open to hunt with having to be drawn for a tag. Though we do have some areas that are opened to resident hunters only. Indeed, some areas are only open to local residents. With the AZ ruling, this is considered illegal and a guide would be able to set up shop and keep the locals from hunting. I see a direct conflict with this ruling and the federal subsistence guidelines also. Not to mention any state subsistence laws.

What USO is saying is that Arizona and other Western States are trying to ban non-resident hunters altogether. That just is not the case. What Arizona was trying to do is allow people that live there an opportunity to hunt in their locale and manage the game as the state department of fish and game sees fit. Obviously, because non-resident licenses are higher than resident licenses, states will want to maximize non-resident hunting opportunities. But none of the Western states are willing to do that at the expense of keeping resident hunters out of the field. The USO ruling could do that. Any time you have a limited number of tags and the demand for those tags are much higher than the animal populations can sustain, someone is not going to be drawn. Shouldn't someone that lives in that locale have a preference to hunt there over someone that has never even visited the area?

Your federal taxes may indeed pay for federal lands and federal agencies. Probably pays for interstate highways and large airports. What about the secondary state roads that actually get you from the airport to the hunting areas which are funded by state or county taxes? There is a lot going on there that isn't getting paid for by federal money.

It just doesn't seem right to me that some kid that lives next to the federal land in Arizona might not ever be drawn to hunt, and not be able to hunt in his home state while tags are being gobbled up by hunters from New York City or Miami Florida that only come once and contribute very little to the Arizona or local economy. Let's face it, the only money USO is going leave in Arizona is license fees and any guide tax there may be. Just doesn't seem right to me.


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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: USO lawyer letter to AZGF [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #25032 - 24/01/05 04:30 PM

Jeffo...

Have you come out into the desert on your weekends here and built guzzlers, worked on fund drives to buy and preserve critical habitat from development, paid your application fees...no, not tag fees...fees just to apply for years and years, joined and supported local sportsman's organizations who work to open access to us average nimrods who can't pay $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 just to be taken through private property to access public hunting areas not otherwise accessable...and on, and on, and on, and on...? I don't think I've seen you on any of these volunteer work crews, have I?

Read the Reserve Clause to the Constitution some time. If I am a bit pissy...too bad...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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