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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Loc: Colorado

Dissection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE
#237697 - 11/11/13 02:17 PM

After a brief discussion on another forum about copper tubed boolits, I decided I would dismantle a vintage cartridge to see for myself.

I have a quantity of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE cases and pulled apart one of the rough ones.
Here is what I found...

The PP boolit is 230grs.
The paper is .001" with two wraps.
Wrapped dia. is .401" +/-

The tube is .155" in dia. and .515" long

Three wads below the boolit.
.025" - .100" - .025"
80grs of black powder

Inside the base of the case is raised and I cannot see where the primer spark would travel to the powder charge.
Will have to take a closer look...

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Loc: Colorado

Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Huvius]
#237698 - 11/11/13 02:19 PM

Here are some pictures of the patch all ironed out as flat as I could get it.

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Huvius
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Loc: Colorado

Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Huvius]
#237699 - 11/11/13 02:19 PM

The wad material, at least the thin wads, is very similar to thin gasket material. Pictured is the wad on top of a piece of cardboard box from a Totinos pizza. Very similar looking although the pizza box is a bit thinner.
The original wad has a very slick coating on it like a laquer. I thought it was absorbed lube but now see that it is a laquer - very smooth and slick.

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Huvius
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Loc: Colorado

Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Huvius]
#237700 - 11/11/13 02:21 PM

The lesson learned for me here is that I should be sizing my bare boolits to use the thinnest paper (that is durable enough) so that my PP boolit has the best fit into a fired case.
Secondly, I had been patching my boolits long, twisting the patch, and then snipping the tail prior to tucking the tail into the base. I see now that the patches were cut to width to just allow for the tail to be tucked. Captain Curl found this out long before I did...
Don't know how they got the twisted tail though. The paper must have been quite pliable when wet. I am starting to think that the nice ladies patching these boolits must have had some sort of rolling machine to accomplish this...
Also, that the hollow base on a PP boolit is simply to provide a space for the patch tail to be tucked. I always figured that it helped the boolit to "bump up" to fit the groove diameter but the solid wad column on this original case makes me doubt that this is the true purpose. The cavity allows the base of the patched boolit to be as flat as possible.
What I REALLY want to see is an original example of a Gibbs copper coated bullet form the tail end of the 461 Gibbs development to see if it has a flat base. Anybody know?

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Ash
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Huvius]
#237706 - 11/11/13 06:10 PM

Thanks for the sacrifice. Great cartridge, paper patching would be a great thing to learn. Was the advantage to reduce fouling?

No idea on the Gibbs cartridge, i've been meaning to purchase one for the collection, but at around $60 each its been on the delay for awhile now, and most definitely wouldn't be pulled apart :P

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MikeRowe
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Ash]
#237708 - 12/11/13 12:01 AM

Thank you for the thread, Ben. It is always most informative when one goes to a primary source for information, even if it means dissecting things.

The copper tube in this .400 bullet is smaller than the ones I have here for a .450 or .500. They measure .204 diameter by about .600 long, IIRC. Another member here most kindly sent me some samples that came in a little cotton bag in a cased rifle set he had purchased. The weight difference in the projectile is 40 grains, so the 270 express bullet in my rifle becomes a 310 solid with a flat nose pin.

Do you think the patcher lady may have just pressed the base of the bullet against her thumb, and just twisted it a little, to do the patch like that?

Is the bullet tapered?

Also, do you think the lacquered wad may have been loaded wet, so it would dry and seal/waterproof everything?

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Huvius
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: MikeRowe]
#237709 - 12/11/13 01:07 AM

Quote:

Do you think the patcher lady may have just pressed the base of the bullet against her thumb, and just twisted it a little, to do the patch like that?

Is the bullet tapered?

Also, do you think the lacquered wad may have been loaded wet, to dry and seal/waterproof everything?

I suppose the patcher lady could have done that, or pressed it down on a rounded peg and twisted the bullet. I will try a rounded dowel and see if the effect is similar.
Unfortunately, I started tearing apart the bullet before the taper question came to mind but it looked pretty straight when I calipered it.

I don't think the disc wad was loaded wet because the edges look cut. My guess is that they were punched from a laquered sheet. Also, the patch is very clean looking where it was tucked which leads me to believe the top wad was totally dry before loading. Didn't stick to the top wad either.

As for the tube, it would be a fun project to hollowpoint some 500-577 bullets and press in a .22 short case. Or, press in a .22 blank and try for an exploding projectile! Might need to hit something like rocks to get it to pop, but maybe not.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (12/11/13 05:25 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Huvius]
#237727 - 12/11/13 12:07 PM

That's really interesting. I have a single Kynoch .450 #1 Express (BPE - I assume) round with copper tubed paper patched lead bullet. The tube is 2/10" in diameter at the nose of the bullet. I assume it is a 2 3/4" .500 case, necked down. I have not, nor will not take it apart, being the only one I have.

Just about anything it impacts will detonate the priming, Huvious.

Compound merely sifted into the hole, then covered over with beeswax works.

With .22 Stingers, a single shot will cut off a will, a bit more than 1" in diameter. 3 shots with them in an 1863 Springfield Rifled musket would cut off a 10" Aspen.
Fun stuff - however BEWARE!! Homeland security might not like this 'stuff' much at all.

The formula was 5:1:1.

5 parts potassium chlorate, 1 part sulfur, 1 part charcoal.
I used drug store Potassium Chlorate, sublimed sulfur(flour of sulfur) and ground up charcoal briquette's which are not charcoal at all. Perhaps these chemical changes lent some 'stability' to my mixture. Also, the sublimed sulfur is much more highly refined than what was used 'back then'- which might make the mixture even more hazardous to your health.

This formula was printed in H., Logan's book "The Pictorial History of the Underhammer". It is the formula used for the pill and tube locks of the early 1800's.

Apparently this formula was outlawed in the UK in the late 1800's as if amalgamated slurry, when dry, became difficult to handle safely. I did not know this at that time. Seemed fine to me- and to everyone throughout the period of it's use - until outlawed, that is. That is why the "BEWARE!"

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Huvius]
#237735 - 12/11/13 03:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

As for the tube, it would be a fun project to hollowpoint some 500-577 bullets and press in a .22 short case. Or, press in a .22 blank and try for an exploding projectile! Might need to hit something like rocks to get it to pop, but maybe not.

even 300 grains 44 Mag bullets are big enough for 22 long blank but dont do it on short range because of bullet splinters coming back. you can try it before with small pistol or small rifle primer shoot wit a 4,5mm airgun agaist a hard surface.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (12/11/13 03:38 PM)

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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana

Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: lancaster]
#237738 - 12/11/13 05:43 PM

Thanks for posting this.
By the late 1870s all Sharps PP bullets were machine patched and the women lost their jobs. But the machine patches were better looking than this job but not by a lot. At least the tail is not twisted then wadded into the base.
The machine patched bullets have neat flattened folds.
When this bullet was patched and when or if the British adopted the machines I could not say.
Dan

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Ash
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Loc: Australia

Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Dphariss]
#237769 - 13/11/13 07:57 PM

Oh i should chime in with some very distance future plans, i intend some day on buying a Winchester copy of an 1876 or/and (:D) 1886 in .50-95 and .50-110, and would intend on having a mold made that casts a hollow with a little recess for the rim of the .22 to sit flush with the top of the lead, and tap in empty .22lr cases for the "express" bullets. Would be great use of the empty .22lr's.

One day! Maybe i should have a mold made for the .458 win mag that does this, and get cracking.

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DarylS
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Ash]
#237784 - 14/11/13 08:21 AM

The hollow 'tubed' bullet as I understand them, was to slow expansion, but still give more than a solid lead bullet could provide.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Dphariss
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: DarylS]
#238686 - 04/12/13 04:13 PM

Is the bullet the same diameter at the base as at the front the the patched section?
Sharps bullets were all tapered even the little bitty 290 gr 45 caliber express bullet.

Dan

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DarylS
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Dphariss]
#238700 - 05/12/13 04:04 AM

Ash - the paper patched bullets did not reduce fouling, but due to deformation, slugged up to fill varying groove diameters common in those days. A grooved lubricated bullet needs to be closer to groove diameter to shoot well - not so the paper patched bullets with base wads.

My best accuracy from my .45 3 1/4" chambered Hoch barreled Rolling block and my brother's .45 3 1/4" factory M74 Shiloh Sharps gave their best accuracy with bore sized, paper-patched pure lead bullets. We needed to use a lube wad next to the powder (separated by wax paper disks) to make this work. We were able to shoot 10 consecutive shots - no wiping, and push ALL of the fouling out the muzzle with a single dry patch after the 10th shot - just as Paul Mathews explained in his "The Paper Jacket" book. Both of our rifles shot better than 1 1/2 MOA - using their aperture sights only, off bags at 100 meters.

I suggest anyone wanting to try paper patched bullets, to purchase that book by Paul A. Mathews. Another good book on the subject by him, is "Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge.

They are available from Wolfe Publishing.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Loc: Colorado

Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: DarylS]
#238701 - 05/12/13 04:44 AM

Quote:

Ash - the paper patched bullets did not reduce fouling, but due to deformation, slugged up to fill varying groove diameters common in those days. A grooved lubricated bullet needs to be closer to groove diameter to shoot well - not so the paper patched bullets with base wads.

Anyone know if when the BP grease groove bullets came on the scene if they kept them at bore diameter as they had in the paper patched bullets?
Is there a reason that a soft GG bullet wouldn't bump up like a patched bullet does?
I suspect that a long bullet of bore diameter only bumps up in the rear third or so of its length leaving the leading half or more bore riding.
A high speed film of a bullet shedding its paper patch and a look at the rifling on the bullet would sure be nice to see!

--------------------
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Dphariss
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Huvius]
#238750 - 06/12/13 12:45 AM

Sharps used a bullet diameter of .451 in 45. This was supposed to be their nominal groove diameter. However, most barrels were larger than this .464 was very common. 44s with a 446 nominal were often .454, I saw one that was .464!
The problem with GG bullets is that they were largely in the cartridge case and if the chamber was tight they were past expanding by the time they cleared the cartridge case since they "bump up" before they move significantly.
Dr Gunn told me he had all his Grandfathers guns except the "Dutch" gun, Schuetzen, he worked for Sharps and represented them at rifle matches. He told me that one of the 45 2.4" long range rifles had a .464 groove and chamber so tight it would not accept a bullet in the case that was over .451. He said it shot fine with a PP bullet about 1/16" in the case (how the LR ammo was loaded).
No the GG bullets were not fit to the bores since there was too much variation in bore size in almost all the makes until the advent of Smokeless powder. The bullets were swaged and pretty uniform in diameter. But the barrels were all over the place and often the headspace was really large too. Handloaders could get patch paper often referred to as "bank note paper" in various thicknesses to patch the bullets with and this probably helped with accuracy in some guns.
Strangely, or maybe not, many US Trapdoor Springfields military rifles/carbines were over sized as well 460 to 464. These all shot GG bullets that were .457".
Dan

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DarylS
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Re: Disection of Eley 450/400 2-3/8" BPE [Re: Dphariss]
#238778 - 06/12/13 04:17 AM

Depth of seating and chamber size is very interesting in how they interact with soft bullets and black powder.

I recall an article by Elmer Keith, written a very long time ago when he wrote for American Rifleman magazine, wherein he stated the bullet should always be sized or be of a size to fit the fired case with no sizing. At the time, he was shooting original Sharp's Buffalo rifles as there were no "replicas" at that time.

He noted there was NO sizing of the case to hold the bullet. The rifle he was writing about had been re-chambered (from .50 2 1/2") for the Winchester 3 1/4" .50 case. He noted that that case would hold 170gr. of 'rifle' powder.
When I read that article, years after it was written, I was playing with a Shiloh Sharps .50 3 1/4" and indeed, with the ICI (Scottish) single F black powder, the case did hold 170gr. and it kicked like a mule with the paper patched 700gr. bullets I experimented with from a re-bored mould.

The 'throat' in that rifle was a long freebore, not proper for a Sharps, but it allowed the groove diameter bullet to be seated almost entirely out of the case. It had to be wiped between shots to allow loading, thus was not useable loaded that way, for hunting.

With more commonly available GOEX black powder, 2F or 1F, the case held only 156gr. Thus, the specific gravities of those powders were quite different.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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