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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: DarylS]
      #238463 - 01/12/13 01:08 AM

Quote:

2,400fps with a 300gr. Hornady would be perfect, I'd think. Any faster and this thin jacketed RN might over expand.
In Rod. H's tests, the 300gr. Interbond (gold bullet) showed even more expansion than the standard RN, with a typical bubble-gum-stick-together huge final diameter-type expansion. We also tried cup-pointing some of them and the expansion was greater yet, even lower initial speeds.

I If one cuts an animal apart and sees little internal hemorrhage or tissue damage when the lungs should have been well holed (2" to 3"?) or shredded, then one might complain the bullets did not expand well.

Norma's "Alaskan" brand bullets have thinner jackets for expansion at lower speeds.




That is the same velocity I shoot my bullets out of my 416 Rem with 400 gr bullets--works very well and have always had good expansion and very good penetration with both solids and softs..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39697
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: DvK]
      #238504 - 02/12/13 03:23 AM

Quote:

I do not have personal experience with the Woodleighs in .375", but I have seen the 286gr Weldcore 9,3mm exspand willingly even with 9,3x57 velocity. For what you are looking for driven hunts you should might consider the Brenneke TUG. For Buffalo I guess the standard Weldcore .375" 300gr is too soft, after the Informations I have heard and seen.





I have shot numerous water buffalo, a cape buffalo, scrub bulls, donkeys and pigs from small to large with the 300 gr Woodleigh Weldcore RN and the bullets always seemed to work well. I don't think they are too soft at all. The large soft point also allows reliable expansion.

Granhavn,

I am using the above bullet in my .375 H&H Mag bolt rifle, but only at about 2300 fps. This is about 200 to 250 fps faster than you are shooting them at. Of course there is velocity loss once it leaves the barrel. Just for information.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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granhaven
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Reged: 30/12/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Denmark
Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: DvK]
      #238575 - 03/12/13 02:51 AM

Quote:

I do not have personal experience with the Woodleighs in .375", but I have seen the 286gr Weldcore 9,3mm exspand willingly even with 9,3x57 velocity. For what you are looking for driven hunts you should might consider the Brenneke TUG. For Buffalo I guess the standard Weldcore .375" 300gr is too soft, after the Informations I have heard and seen.

You state that you find it difficult to shoot the second barrel for game nummer two if you havnet seen the first one roll. To my etichs you should never shoot the last bullet to a fresh game! The meaning of a doubles is the quick follow up shot....

What you describe after the shots in Poland I would personatly not find acceptabel! Every shot taken should be controlled with tracking dogs, polish hunting organiseres will not learn this etichs unless you as a Hunters (read customer) demands it.

DvK




I Do live in Poland, part time, and have done so for the last 20+ years, I speak fluent Polish and hunt exclusively with my Polish Hunting friends in our OWN hunting districts that we have managed since the great war. I don’t make the rules; just tell how the Polish Hunting tradition IS and what implications this make on my requirements for the bullet performance.

For the same reason I prefer a Round Nose bullet that is fairly stable after hitting a tree, stone or frozen soil, I don’t like the noise from my neighbor on a driven hunt if a bullet passes to close after a ricochet.
A double rifle is not for a quick follow up shot. It is EITHER for a quick follow up shot OR a second boar or deer. By the way I always have two extra cartridges in my left hand and can reload quicker than most bolt action rifle men and have managed to shoot a third boar...
(I have never seen a gentlemen shooting high pheasants, not using the second barrel on pheasant number two...)

I always have my own "tracking dog" (sweiss hund) with me, and quite often spend Monday after our two day driven hunt checking the leftovers.

My concern here is that the bullets I have tested in cal 375 FLANGED were simply too hard and unwilling to expand on the European big game in Poland. I have, over the years, shoot more than 600 deer and boar with a 9 gram Sellier & Bellot in 7x65R, presumably the worst bullet there is on the market. But it works very well on a driven hunt and I am looking for a similar bad / soft alternative that will work at the limited speed that my 375 FLANGED is comfortable with.

Anything, cal 7mm, .30 or .375 put thru the "engine" on a boar or deer will kill it, that is not the question. The question here is how quick, and how visible. On boar, at least the once I have seen, the only way that they will drop dead is when hit in the spine or brain, otherwise they will keep running. Boars on a driven hunt are in alert and the adrenalin is pumping so you can’t compare the reaction to boar shot when having a nap or during dinner.
A bolt rifle with 200-500 fps higher speed produces significantly higher impact energy and will create a completely different picture with the SAME bullet, than the 2400 fps that I hope to obtain..


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granhaven
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Reged: 30/12/08
Posts: 44
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #238576 - 03/12/13 02:58 AM

Quote:

"If that bullet do not exit an Australian pig, I do not Think the bullet have penetration enough for buff, "

Not so.

Pigs / Boars seem to be a law unto themselves. I am not the only one who thinks this and it was originally bought to my attention by a mate of mine. They do some strange things to bullets, it might be because they are often just so dense,
or so it seems.

I've seen them pull up a bullet that exited sideways on a Water Buffalo (big bulls).

Either way, a Red deer should be dead when shot with one.

I shoot / have shot a lot of Water Buffalo with the 375H&H
(and quite a few boars) as well as the 9.3 x 64, uploaded and downloaded to test bullets I believe it is the same jacket as the 375 Bullet. Anyway, the performance is the same.

Yes, it is interesting he says they don't expand.

You do need to section animals as the holes do close up.


We don't need to use test medium here, we have thousand of boars and Buffalo to test game on and ready access to do it where you really can "set up the shots" you want. It makes life intersting when bullet testing. You can shoot on hell of a lot of game in a week and get the results.




Will load 100 rounds of .375 Flanged, pack the rug sack, and book a ticket for Australia. Will the coming week suit you?


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: granhaven]
      #238577 - 03/12/13 03:06 AM


Gran

"On boar, at least the once I have seen, the only way that they will drop dead is when hit in the spine or brain, otherwise they will keep running."

Yes, but rarely do I see a good heart shot Boar with a 375H&H do much more than go a few paces if any. I know they are solid
and yes, most of the one's I shoot are "on the run" or on the trot knowing something is up.


Would be surprised if the 270 or 300gn Woodleigh weldcore RN
was not up to the job. It was designed around those specs.
I tested the 9.3 bullets (PP and RN) from very high to very low velocity to get Woodleigh the recommended impact velocity. The RN open up at slower speeds, PP's need a bit faster.


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granhaven
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Reged: 30/12/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Denmark
Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: granhaven]
      #240648 - 15/01/14 05:10 AM



Update on the subject
I have been field testing the Hornady RN (Round Nose) in 270 grains with VV N160 in two loads, one with 75 grains and one with 78 grains. The 75 grains load shoots well together at 50 meters whereas the 78 grain load crosses 7-8 centimeters also at 50 meters. The 78 grains load is not pleasant to shoot and shows an excessive flame.
My concern was that the impact speed was not high enough with the 75 grain load to secure proper expansion in the animal, thus the whish for more speed compromising on keeping the bullets together.
The driven hunts have shown that the 78 grains load with the 270 grain Hornady RN is to powerful and may create a 10 centimeter exit hole when hitting bone on a 40 kilo boar.
On another smaller boar no bones were hit and the exit hole was app 3 cm. doing the meat I noticed that 8 ribs were broken close the spine on the exit hole side. This shows the massive force delivered.
One boar was hit badly, too far back so it was still alive and the dogs were attacking it so I obtained permission during the drive to run to the boar. With one foot and one hand keeping the dogs from the boar I tried to shoot the boar in the neck. The rifle doubled, holding it in only one hand I felt the magnitude of 2 x 78 grains VV N160 and 2x 270 Hornady. The skin on the trigger finger and the next was damaged but that was nothing to the effect on the neck and skull of the boar.
The last driven hunts of the season did not bring any results regarding expansion, but yesterdays walk in the sunny winter forest gave the opportunity to shoot a calf at maybe 175 meters distance. I had left my black Labrador by a tree and closed in on the deer and was ready to shoot only waiting for the proper Hind to show enough body to hit the heart & lungs. Akon, my lab, was not happy with the situation where I am hunting and he is waiting so he started Houling like a wolf. The deer all looked in my direction ready to depart, so I knew that it was now or newer (we have to fill the yearly quota on Hinds before the 15 of January where the season closes) the deer dropped on the spot, shot in the front, quartering out just above the heart. Normally I would not have taken this kind of shoot, but the season is closing and the quota has to be filled. The exit hole is 2 cm and I am looking forward to see what damages it caused inside. The lungs were more or less intact.
The deer where enjoying the warm rays of the sun after a very cold night with wind and low temperature. I know that because I was walking most of the night looking for boars and slept only a few hours in the car before looking for deer in the morning.



Edited by granhaven (15/01/14 05:15 AM)


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Sville
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Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden
Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: granhaven]
      #240649 - 15/01/14 06:18 AM

Granhaven, try Norma Alaska. Thats an old bullet that always have worked well on all Scandinavian animals. I think that is a bullet that would suit you very well. /Staffan

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