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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
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Loc: New Zealand
Holland and Holland sales records
      #238034 - 20/11/13 05:59 AM

Does anyone know how to trace the sales records of individual Holland and Holland firearms? Who holds these records now? In this case, it's a .295 semi-smooth bore rook rifle SN 13979 made some time between 1883 and 1889. It's a top lever model marked with 'Field trials' info. I have contacted H&H but no reply. Finding out who first purchased it would be most interesting.

Any help would be much appreciated.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #238037 - 20/11/13 06:10 AM


Holland and Holland.

Try phoning them.

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: 500Nitro]
      #238048 - 20/11/13 10:05 AM

Kiwi Bloke, i can PM you their details if you like but IIRC there is an area on the H&H website that you can email and they will send you the relevant details for a fee.

I have done this and received an email with the rifles details from 1913.

best wishes,

Chris

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Kalahariklong
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Reged: 07/03/08
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Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #238085 - 20/11/13 11:53 PM

It is correct that H&H have the records and on request usually provide the details they may have on any firearm. In recent years the records have been loaded on an electronic database making it quick and simple to access. However, the records on Rook Rifles are not as detailed as those of most other firearms. I once spent a few hours in the London Gunroom going through the ledgers, attempting to trace the records of Rook Rifle # 18145 (300/295)which I acquired a few years before. The "Rook Rifle Record Books" were a couple of smaller ledgers where random records were kept. The records seemed to be incomplete and certainly not numerically organised - disappointingly, I was unable to get the records of my specific rifle. It did seem that later, post 1900 records were better organised. By all means ask H&H again for the details of your rifle, knowing they may not be able to help you.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
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Loc: New Zealand
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: Kalahariklong]
      #238134 - 21/11/13 03:48 PM

Thanks for that advice guys. That might be why my initial email was unanswered.

About 25+ years ago, when I was holidaying in England, one of the highlights was visiting Holland & Holland several times, (also Rowland Ward books which were then downstairs), and I got on very well with the staff there. I remember purchasing some silver-plated 12 gauge snap caps for a friend and the salesman told me, "one day Sir we'll build a gun around those for you".

Seems like I might just have to go back and search these records myself - but only if you insist, twist my arm and all that. But in the first instance, since I live on the other side of the world, I'll try contacting them by phone, (a bit cheaper than a flight ticket), and see what they say.
Anything of interest I'll report back.

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Englishman
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Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Lot,France
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #238144 - 21/11/13 07:40 PM

Kiwi Bloke,
I think you will find that the reason for the "sketchy" information on the early Rook Rifles ,is that these were made for H&H by Webley, and ,as they were really only for the gardener, or the children to use, they were never looked upon as being of very much significants. Interestingly, I had the same comment made to me when I visited H&H many years ago,now we both own a H&H gun,so he was almost right!
Chris.

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joelblack
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Reged: 05/06/12
Posts: 61
Loc: WI, USA
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: Englishman]
      #238893 - 07/12/13 02:19 AM

In fact, H&H used Webley for virtually all of their rook rifles including the Royals and Ross'which certainly not made for gardeners or children. Richard Milner has a letter from H&H to Webley ordering 10 Royal rook rifles "made to our specifications". Sadly, the original letter stating the specifications did not survive the dust bin.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: joelblack]
      #238940 - 07/12/13 05:18 PM

Just a follow up to say that Holland & Holland were kind enough to locate this serial number against the rifle's calibre .295 in their 1893 records for the "new pattern hammerless". The 'buyer' is shown as "Brain". However, my suspicion is that this supposed buyer might in fact be the supplier. Of the 12 rifles shown on the page, 3 are credited simply to "Brain" and the remaining 9 to "N and Son". (The N could also be a W or an M).

Thomas Brain co-patented with Thomas Webley in 1882 the well known Webley screw-grip top fastener. If Webley were one of the suppliers of rook rifles to the trade, then this explanation would seem to fit. Brain may have set up independently by 1893 or he may have been in charge of supplying these from Webley. That is, he may have been the H&H point of contact, hence his name in their records. Whatever the true explanation, the rifle is still in good original condition and when dies and mould arrives, there's no reason why it shouldn't shoot again.

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joelblack
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Reged: 05/06/12
Posts: 61
Loc: WI, USA
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #238952 - 08/12/13 01:15 AM

I have most of the Army & Navy CSL sales records. That organization sold more than half of the handguns made in England between 1882 & 1910, along with shotguns and rifles. They should be invaluable since the records show both the supplier of the firearms and the buyer. In fact they are often simply frustrating due to the spidery Victorian handwriting. This is a typical H&H record for a double rifle written by their clerk who had the most easily read handwriting.



Edited by joelblack (08/12/13 01:36 AM)

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Holland and Holland sales records [Re: joelblack]
      #238974 - 08/12/13 09:38 PM

Kiwi Bloke it would be nice to see some photographs.

Glad to hear you have some result from H&H.

Best wishes,

Chris

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