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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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casper50
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Loc: Alaska
.730 paradox bullets needed
      #237891 - 17/11/13 08:06 AM

I've looked all over for some .730 12 bore paradox shaped bullets. I'm trying to reload for my single barrel rifle but cannot find anyone that will sell be 50 or even 100. Anyone know where I can find some?

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AkMike
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: casper50]
      #237893 - 17/11/13 09:13 AM

Have you talked to Cal Pappas or OmnivorousBob about some?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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AkMike
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: AkMike]
      #237894 - 17/11/13 09:24 AM

If those fail get a mold from Tom at accurate molds.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=16

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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MikeRowe
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: AkMike]
      #237896 - 17/11/13 10:49 AM

Have you tried Bob Hayley?

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Sarg
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: casper50]
      #237898 - 17/11/13 11:36 AM

Casper50 , I asked a heap of people for slugs for my 12Bore Magnum Rifle, a couple said they would send me some (I would pay) but non came through, I even saw one of them selling some on the net, but again he let me down !

So I tried round ball & they work very well, I used a expensive ball mould first, then got one from Jeff Tanner, very cheap, fast work & delivery, mould works just fine .

Give RB a try while you look for slugs, they even shot well (smaller balls) in my Simpson 12Ga shotgun I just glued some sights on for a play.

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casper50
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Sarg]
      #237908 - 17/11/13 06:02 PM

Cal was no help. I have no idea who Bob is or how to get in touch with him. I want to try the bullets before buying a mold to see if they will shoot decently.

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AkMike
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: casper50]
      #237909 - 17/11/13 06:55 PM

Bob's in Eagle River, I'll drop him a line about this. I thought you knew him already. Sorry.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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casper50
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: AkMike]
      #237942 - 18/11/13 07:31 AM

Thanks Mike. I appreciate it.

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AkMike
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: casper50]
      #237946 - 18/11/13 08:06 AM

No Problems! I sent him the link to this thread so I'm pretty sure that he'll wander in when he gets it. He really likes these bore rifles.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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AkMike
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: AkMike]
      #237954 - 18/11/13 10:31 AM

I think you're in luck Mike! PM sent with what I've just received.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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CommandCar
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: AkMike]
      #237957 - 18/11/13 12:25 PM

Quote:

If those fail get a mold from Tom at accurate molds.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=16



I was figuring what I would charge for 100 solid paradox type slugs and came up with $ 150-$200: $45 for the lead and tin and the rest for time and shipping. The old style moulds cast .736 to .740 so you would need a sizer of the correct diameter. Most common size dies for the old paradox rounds were about .735ish. I have moulds I might be convinced to loan (I have before), but no .730 sizing die. John Millar might loan you a mould and may have a sizer or could easily make one.

It seems you have a modern rifled bore? You are better off slugging your barrel, checking twist and ordering a fresh mold from accurate. I've looked at their designs, they look good, but I have no personal experience with them. If it did not work, it seems you could readily sell your new mold and recoup much of the expense.

Good luck, I hope you post your results.

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: CommandCar]
      #237966 - 18/11/13 05:56 PM

Casper, a through search of my garage finally turned up a .732" NEI mold for 840 grain paradox type bullets. PM me your address and I'll throw it in the post tomorrow for you to try out for as long as you like. They might be a little heavy unless you figure a way to hollow point them?

Mike, I also confirmed that I still have your excellent 577 Snider mold. I can drop it by your place or give it to you at our spring shoot. Those bullets worked much better than the one's I purchased.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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DarylS
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #237978 - 19/11/13 03:21 AM

Lee Precision might be talked into making a sizer body that fits standard presses (or the oversized, 1" hole in some presses) for any size you want. In smaller sizes at 7/8x14 thread, they charge something like $30.00 per die now.
You have to phone their custom shop as this service is not listed on their web site.

With their sizer dies, comes the close fitting plunger that fits the ram like a shell holder.

Lube the bullet and push them through - VERY simple. They come out the top, one after the other. Push a bullet into the die and take one off the top.

These dies, in successive sizing of about .003" can be used for drawing bullets to smaller sizes, ie: .338's to .330" and .375's to .366" for instance. A buddy uses a set of 3 dies from Lee for drawing 225gr. .323's to .312" for his .303 Brit. - with excellent results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
      #244975 - 04/04/14 06:28 AM

If you want lots of info and places to buy slugs for 12,16,20,28 etc., goto Accurate Reloading, http://forums.[blank]/, and contact Ed Hubel, 12 gafromHell. He's into Paradox big time.

I'm just about to order another mold from Accurate Molds...a 0.690" dia, 700-715 gr tumble lubed slug for use with a WAA12F114 wad. Should get 14-1700 fs depending on which shotgun I use...low speed for O/U's and hi speed in my NEF USH.

I just received my designed #51-690B from Accurate Molds, for use in my 50-70, 50-90 and 50 Rigby wildcat.

You can also get slugs from BPI, Ballistics Products, http://www.ballisticproducts.com/, and several other online places...just Google "12 ga slugs".

I would stick with 600-750 gr slugs as the recoil goes up fast as you increase slug weight and the performance does down just as fast because the recoil is so vicious at the heavier end you won't load them up high enough to gain anything other than recoil.

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gungadoug
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245047 - 04/04/14 11:55 PM

Casper, how many you need? I have a Brooks mold that throws them at .730, and 748 gr.
Doug

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mehulkamdar
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: casper50]
      #245448 - 11/04/14 12:36 AM

Dixie Slugs have been making original Paradox style slugs for some time. Haven't used them myself, but they seem to have a good reputation on some forums.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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gatsby
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #245458 - 11/04/14 01:30 AM

Some of the modern slgs are cast pretty hard and care should be taken when using them in older guns, the ball and shot and rifled choke guns in particular.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: gatsby]
      #245570 - 12/04/14 12:40 PM

Dixie has shut down for a while...products are no longer available.

Some of my paradox toys...

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Ruger_450
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245594 - 13/04/14 02:51 AM

Lee will make you a custom mold very reasonably.

This is the 1.2 oz bullet they made the mold for to up the ante in my Baker 61 caliber flintier. Worked just fine.
Lubed with SPG using a cutoff 16 gauge empty as a cookie cutter.










BIG HOLE !



3 @ 50 WITH 7 DECADE EYES. (elbow rest)

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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Ruger_450]
      #245612 - 13/04/14 10:20 AM

Nice slug...nicer pile of steaks and roasts!!!

That's a new slug shape to me but it looks very good...you got me thinking...I haven't sent off my drawing yet to Accurate Molds, now I might just re-think my design.


What drawing program is that?

Thanks

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DarylS
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245643 - 14/04/14 01:45 AM

The 'bullet's' shape is the standard Lee R.E.A.L. shape, which stands for: Rifling Engraved At Loading

The are made as production runs in .45, .50 and .58 calibres and are available in double cavity aluminum moulds w/handles for a paltry $25.99 - normally.

The bands are supposed to be progressively larger towards the nose, so that the bottom band slides into the bore, barely touching. The next engraves a bit, more, etc as you approach the nose, with the last one being the largest. This progressively larger bullet diameter helps to give a tighter fit inside the bore - so that: accuracy is increased and more importantly, the slug does not slide out the bore if the muzzle is pointed downwards. THAT is the danger of shooting slugs in ML rifles - rung/ringed or blown barrels are the result from displaced bullets at the moment of ignition. This slug, if fitting properly, should prevent movement.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
      #245654 - 14/04/14 04:02 AM

Thanks Daryl...I understand the "REAL" bullet concept, but for some reason the bullet in the pic just looked different...brain phaht I think, or old age dementia.

I don't do a lot of muzzle loading, mostly round ball and the twists on my 45, 50 and 54 smoke poles have one very accurate round ball load apiece that work great and none of them shoot any of the other offerings worth a hoot...All I've tried just make a big pattern so I haven't looked beyond round balls.

My "paradox" shooters are 12 and 20 ga rifled shotguns with twist rates that will handle long, heavy bullets higher velos and my newest designs are "tumble" lube styles...lots of small grooves for finger lubing with Alox.

That bullet in the picture just looked MEAN.

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Ruger_450
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
      #245655 - 14/04/14 04:41 AM

I don't know what the software is. I talked to the guy at Lee, told him what I wanted and he designed it and sent me a link to the picture.

One error I made is that the Baker was a "hammer them to start" design. The famous statue in London even shows the hammer used hanging from the "Chosen man's" belt. I would have made it .605 rather than .610.

Back then they used patched round balls although when things got hot they would carry bare balls in their mouths, spit them onto the charge, keep the muzzle elevated and kill the Frenchies.

If you have not seen the series "Sharpe's Rifles" you should. The books were great but to see the Bakers in action is great. Netflix has it …. sadly not remastered in BluRay.

Recently I acquired a discontinued Lyman Round nose Minnie Ball hollow base .585 mold. Gonna try it as is. If it doesn't work I am lucky to have a pal who builds molds and can open it up to .600 so starting and reloading won't take a hammer.

I have actually shot mine off a front rest out to 400 yards at a VW bug sized boulder. After some "Kain-tuck" elevation, you would not want to be in that VW.

As for your Paradox gun, 12 gauge is .729 and most slugs are hollow based. You could also buy some Brennekke 12 bore slugs with the screwed on wads and try them.

Finally Ballistic Products:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Slugs/departments/198/

has all kinds of 12 bore slugs, sabots and molds.

I have shot 45 caliber Barnes Copper bullet sabots from my .452 percussion ML and they will shoot well enough for shots to 200 yards. It is really set up for big heavy lead bullets, but the Barnes would work for hunting.





When I lived in the East in a shotgun only for deer area I used Brennekes for years but then switched to the 12 Bore Federal Barnes sabots. They shot flatter, would put 3 in a playing card at 100 (scoped, rifled 870) and killed like the hammer of Thor on big corn fed Whitetails.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245660 - 14/04/14 07:04 AM

Quote:



My "paradox" shooters are 12 and 20 ga rifled shotguns




Let's be clear here guys.
A 'rifled shotgun' is a bore rifle - not a shotgun and definitely not a Paradox.
A Paradox gun is a special machine - and needs special ammunition and projectiles.

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DarylS
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: tinker]
      #245662 - 14/04/14 07:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:



My "paradox" shooters are 12 and 20 ga rifled shotguns




Let's be clear here guys.
A 'rifled shotgun' is a bore rifle - not a shotgun and definitely not a Paradox.
A Paradox gun is a special machine - and needs special ammunition and projectiles.



Point taken, Tinker, but I think HIS description was meant to be interpolated as "I don't have any paradoxes, but I do have both 12 and 20 rifled guns"

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Ruger_450]
      #245664 - 14/04/14 07:31 AM

Quote:


I have shot 45 caliber Barnes Copper bullet sabots from my .452 percussion ML and they will shoot well enough for shots to 200 yards. It is really set up for big heavy lead bullets, but the Barnes would work for hunting.






Please tell us about your rifle.
I would like to get a Pedersoli Gibbs and modify it for a rod like your rifle.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: casper50]
      #245665 - 14/04/14 07:31 AM

Casper - I believe the suggestion is that Lee will cut you a mould in the REAL design, which would result in a typical paradox-weight - for about $100.00 to $125.00 I think is their range for a simple, custom mould.

Foster (American-type) hollow-based 12 bore slugs will run from .690" to .725" - nominally, depending on their maker.

Brenneke's are usually a bit larger in diameter and have been sold by the box of 25 for loading, in the past - what their size is I do not know.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
      #245679 - 14/04/14 02:06 PM

Thanks Ruger 450.

You can talk to me directly, guys, I'm in the same room. Ask me directly what I mean.


I don't want to get into a protracted whizzing contest over minutia or definitions...my understanding of a "Paradox" gun is a gun with a smooth bore and a section of rifling so you could shoot both bullets and shot. The ammo wasn't "special", the rifle was. It used shot shells for one type of game and cartridge's with a 740 grain round nose bullet for another.

I have rifled guns in 12 and 20 gauge...shotguns, SS, O/U, pump and auto in 12 and 20 gauge and rifled choke tubes to fit several, and I shoot slugs of some type and weight, factory and home grown, in all of them at various times.

So tell me...by definition...when I install a rifled choke tube on any of those smooth bores, they become a "Paradox Gun" with a capital "P" and when I take off the rifled tube and install a smooth tube and shoot slugs in it along with shot shells it becomes just another ordinary "paradox" gun with a small "p"...and if I were to decide to chuck the rifled gauge gun barrels in my lathe and remove all but 3" of rifling, the gun would become a "True" "Paradox gun". N'est-ce pas?

Or...does it have to be a H&H or one of the other makers of that era to qualify?

There are several mold makers that do large bore bullets. Accurate Arms will make you a single cavity to your specs for $100, so will NEI, Hoch, Brooks, JT, LBT, etc., but they cost quite a bit more.

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gatsby
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245682 - 14/04/14 03:13 PM

Quote:

Thanks Ruger 450.

You can talk to me directly, guys, I'm in the same room. Ask me directly what I mean.


I don't want to get into a protracted whizzing contest over minutia or definitions...my understanding of a "Paradox" gun is a gun with a smooth bore and a section of rifling so you could shoot both bullets and shot. The ammo wasn't "special", the rifle was. It used shot shells for one type of game and cartridge's with a 740 grain round nose bullet for another.


So tell me...by definition...when I install a rifled choke tube on any of those smooth bores, they become a "Paradox Gun" with a capital "P" and when I take off the rifled tube and install a smooth tube and shoot slugs in it along with shot shells it becomes just another ordinary "paradox" gun with a small "p"...and if I were to decide to chuck the rifled gauge gun barrels in my lathe and remove all but 3" of rifling, the gun would become a "True" "Paradox gun". N'est-ce pas?





Yes no and kinda. Paradoxes shoot to the sites with ball ammo and pattern ic as a shotgun. The shot ammo used in the period guns wasn't special but the ball ammo was. Your gun with removable chokes could be considered a "paradox" that is the gun and both sets of chokes. I doubt if your rifled gun would pattern well with part of the rifling removed and may not shoot well either. The "magic" of a paradox was/is in the barrels and their ability to function as both a rifle and shotgun. Modern hard cast slugs if used in an older gun could bulge the barrel when passing through the choke section so it is somewhat important to clarify exactly what type of gun is being referenced when talking about loading for these "paradox" guns.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (14/04/14 03:15 PM)

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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: gatsby]
      #245685 - 14/04/14 05:27 PM

Thanks, Gatsby...I'm understanding that when talking about a "Paradox gun" it is a period gun rather than a modern gun even though H&H will make you a modern version...for a LOT of money.

NO rifled gun will pattern shot very well...the spin will open up the pattern more than a standard choke will and a 4 petal wad will worsen the pattern...argumentatively speaking. The rifled chokes tubes I have equated to ~IMP CYL and 1/35 twist...OK for game birds up close and a pie plate slug group at 75-80 yds depending on slug length...I gave up wasting shot and went back to mod/full chokes, and a fully rifled barrel.

Turning and honing out the rifling and leaving 3-6" of rifling would be a giant waste of time but if done right with a bit of run in for the shot/slug shouldn't be too hard and should shoot just as well as a "real" Paradox gun. Getting the smooth bore section the correct ID is no problem...just deep hole drilling so to speak. I couldn't do it with my loosey-goosey lathe...bed isn't long enough besides.

Interesting problem to solved though.

You shouldn't shoot slugs through a choked muzzle even with modern steels unless the slug is sized correctly...even cylinder bore choke tubes have a range of constrictions running from ~0.725" to ~0.735" Nominal bore ID for the 12 ga is 0.729" but some of the back bored shotguns are much larger so you need to measure to be sure. But you all know this.

This Paradox gun "which slug to use" is interesting and adding to my learning process...Thanks everyone.

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DarylS
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245698 - 15/04/14 12:12 AM

Sorry NONAGONAGIN - no offense meant.

According to Seyfried (DGJ), he sized bullets to just barely bore size or .001" under bore size IIRC. Thus, they were free flying up the bore until they hit the normal .020" (or more) deep rifling.

An oversized slug for the bore would be bore size before it moved an inch, but for him, did not shoot well until they were sized to that .001" under bore size.

As I understood the wording - H&H made "Paradox" guns while the other makers made "Rifled Choke" guns - due to H&H's patent on the word Paradox.

Is this correct?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
      #245712 - 15/04/14 12:50 AM

Holland was the only maker and user of the rifled choke method until 1900 when their patents expired. After that other makers copied the system. Westley patented their specialized ammo designed specifically for their Explora and Fauneta rifled choke guns.
Paradox, Explora,Fauneta,Ubique, Jungle gun et al are brand names for rifled choke or specialized ball and shot guns.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: gatsby]
      #245717 - 15/04/14 02:05 AM

I didn't see/read anything that gave me offence, Daryl. This game can be individualistic when it comes to guns and if you can't agree to disagree, energetically at times, you should stay off the "net.

I have Mossberg, Rem, Browning, NEF and a couple of OLD, long out of production shotguns and every one of them have a different bore ID's as measured with a dial indicated bore gauge. I'm guessing the same goes for the Paradox guns.

Not only that but bore size varies within brands...my Mossy 500 18" cylinder bore is different than the 24" barrel and the 535 barrels are different still...not by much, a couple thou one way or the other and my friends Beretta is "worse" yet...doesn't bother much seems like...you just have to develop a slug load for what the gun shoots best.

Just like missing the forest for the trees...or visa versa...these discussions(on every forum I've been to) can fall into nit picking over minutia and miss out on the good stuff in the bigger picture.

I always learn a great deal from the minutia, many times specific to one gun. But what is very important to one person isn't very important to another and a 0.001" +/- may or may not cause much of a ruckus in another application. I fit the bullet to whatever the gun likes for a range of loads and accuracy levels...or not...same with all my rifle/pistol calibers. Accuracy for a sage rat at 500 yds plus is much different than what is required for an Elk at 50 yds.

I think the Paradox gun might be a god idea that came and went...but could also come back. In todays world we keep recycling, we get bored easily and just about ANYTHING new-to-us can get a new lease on life.

I've been at this game 60 odd years, done most of it many years, killed my first LEGAL deer with a 12 ga SXS Fox double with the old Rem punkin' ball(lots of deer with a 22LR) when a freshman in HS, got totally bored with most of it and now I'm back to very large bores, heavy slugs and a fresh look at things. I think that's very cool.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26674
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245731 - 15/04/14 04:30 AM

Thanks Gatsby - that is very close to what I surmised.

Excellent - my Mossy 835 rifled 24" bl. is .724", groove to groove. The 30" smooth bore is simply oversize at .735".

With Herco powder, my only test so far, I handles the undersized .710" (Tanner Mold) round balls beautifully even though it has the rather 'fast' 35" twist.

I need to test some heavier .724" balls (Tanner Mould) I cast some time ago, with Longshot and Steel powders. I should be able to get close to 2,000fps with "Steel" - I think, we'll see.

Loading somewhat undersized round balls inside a shotshell, but patched in cloth to take up the windage has worked well for me and also for my 'local' friends - it is something that should/could be considered as there is no leading. The ball itself does not contact the rifling, but is spun by it as if engraved. They are, of course, lighter than the Paradox or other elongated bullets - being close to the 3/4 rule? - a .715" ball weighing 545gr. in pure lead, whereas a .730" ball weighs 583gr.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
      #245735 - 15/04/14 04:50 AM

We have a member here (grenardier, I believe...) who owns and shoots a modern production H&H Paradox.

I'm sure he could comment on the effectiveness of the design based on modern production and modern ammunition.

Gatsby - how many different Paradox guns have you owned and shot?
We have other members who also own/ed Paradox, Explora, Ubique, and others from other makers.

Also see Hamilton Bowen's work with special ball/shot revolvers.
A common theme with the long guns and Ham Bowen's revolvers seems to be relatively abrupt and severe choke rifling. Bowen uses Colt brass and bullets through backbored .44mag barrels.
Someone here can share the bore and constriction numbers from their ball/shot guns.
Successful bullet designs all seem to have one deep and wide grease groove and they tend to be cast of relatively soft alloy - both for the long guns and for the Bowen revolvers.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #245743 - 15/04/14 07:45 AM


Quote:

" Turning and honing out the rifling and leaving 3-6" of rifling would be a giant waste of time but if done right with a bit of run in for the shot/slug shouldn't be too hard and should shoot just as well as a "real" Paradox gun. Getting the smooth bore section the correct ID is no problem...just deep hole drilling so to speak. I couldn't do it with my loosey-goosey lathe...bed isn't long enough besides."




When I was hunting in Japan (where they have some unusually/strange rules/laws on firearms & life in general)
The easiest firearm license to get & keep is a smooth bore Shot Gun, they have made amendments to that & you can have a small part of the barrel rifled, so fully rifled barrels need to have a large part to most of the rifling removed !

So when I asked about this I presumed that it would be like a Paradox type & leave rifling at the end of the barrel, the guys said "no that does not work well" ??? & it is removed from the muzzle end ???

Any way this way worked very well, shot 2 1/2in to 4in groups at a 100yd with Barnes Expanders (no lead allowed now days) & killed deer to 200yds + it could be used on Ducks, doesn't make sense, but it worked !

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: tinker]
      #245753 - 15/04/14 10:35 AM

Quote:



Gatsby - how many different Paradox guns have you owned and shot?
We have other members who also own/ed Paradox, Explora, Ubique, and others from other makers.



Cheers
Tinker



Double digits, all rifled choke HH and WR 8,10 12 and 20. I hope to own and reload for one of the invisible rifling systems one day.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Ruger_450
Banned


Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Huvius]
      #245805 - 16/04/14 02:48 AM

My 452 was made by the late Don Brown in WA. I bought it slightly used from the late Thad Scott in MS.

Killed one ancient speed goat w/it near my home at 90 paces. Belly crawling through the cactus and sage with a drag bag at age (then) 69 is real hunting.

WG&F biology guy said it was the oldest speed goat he had ever seen.



I have now "ruined the rifle" by putting an 6X Unertl small game scope on it that allows me to ring the 400 yard gong almost every shot. Mounts are dovetailed into bbl as it must be slightly offset to clear hammer. I also have the huge Venier tang sight for it. Easy resroration for some future owner.

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Ruger_450
Banned


Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Ruger_450]
      #245806 - 16/04/14 02:54 AM

BTW, if you happen to stop in the H&H gun room in NY City they have their new Paradox ammo on display.

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3539
Loc: Colorado
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Ruger_450]
      #245812 - 16/04/14 03:28 AM

Super nice BP rifle 450!
That is a very close replica to my Alex Henry which unfortunately I have not shot yet.

Maybe we could move this over to the muzzle loading section for its own thread and out of the paradox discussion.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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NONAGONAGIN
.224 member


Reged: 03/04/14
Posts: 11
Loc: USA
Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Huvius]
      #245814 - 16/04/14 04:12 AM

YES...very nice shooter!!!...450

I'm not convinced you have "ruined" that superb rifle. I'm not sure when telescopic rifles were actually first installed on rifles, but I know 'scopes were put on Sharps way back when.

I will be putting one of the Wm. Malcolm "shorty's" on my 50-90 Sharps soon...I HAVE to have a scope if I want to hit anything. My old eyes and beginning cataracts in my sighting right eye force me into it.

I also think a 'scope on the "oldies" adds a certain ambiance and "down to business" vision.


Sarge...ANY firearm made of wood and metal can be fiddled with, both materials being very amenable to modification. I don't know exactly how H&H does their partial rifling as there are several methods that can be employed, but I'm guessing they used cut rifling in the old days and maybe in todays world also. Hammering around a forming mandrel or button rifling are two other methods. The barrel is finished before installing or the fully rifled barrel is removed, the mods performed, then the barrel is reinstalled...again a fairly simple procedure with the correct machine/tools.


You Guys are a "bad" influence on me...I'm now wondering about doing a Paradox barrel on a muzzle loader or doing a Paradox stub barrel on one of my NEF single shots....or???...I'm way too cheap and poor to buy an H&H or fully finished rifle.

Ahhhh...where are you Lady Luck, when I need you?

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