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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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Mike_Bailey
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.404 Jeffrey
      #237748 - 12/11/13 11:12 PM

I have read somewhere that MS made the rifle in .404 Jeffrey under a metric nomenclature (10.75x73). Is this true ? and if so where can I get an old one to potentially "do up". Are the cartridges interchangeable ? Thx in advance, Mike

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Marrakai
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237749 - 12/11/13 11:47 PM

Mike:
They made them in the 10.75 x 68, but not the longer chambering to my knowledge.

More info here

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Marrakai]
      #237750 - 12/11/13 11:54 PM

OK, for an idiot (as I am), can I get a new barrel rechambered for the .404 and will the magazine still work ?? or would the action still function with .404 ammo ? cheers, Mike

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lancaster
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237754 - 13/11/13 05:25 AM

interesting question, try it
take a 8x68 rifle and just start!
I think it could be possible and the action is strong enough.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: lancaster]
      #237765 - 13/11/13 06:12 PM

What about starting with the 10.75 x 68 ? best

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Ash
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237766 - 13/11/13 06:22 PM

Dont think you'll find one, theyre super rare from what ive heard. (10.75x68)

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kuduae
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Ash]
      #237772 - 14/11/13 12:01 AM

Quote:

.404 and will the magazine still work ??



No, it will definitely not! Mannlicher-Schoenauer magazines are very cartridge specific. You would have to open up the receiver and to rework the cartridge carrier, if that's possible at all. On an 8x68 magazine the wall between cartridges and carrier spring is already quite thin, so you cannot remove any metal here. A Mannlicher-Schoenauer "Magnum" magazine limits cartridge over-all length to 86.5 mm =3.4", too short for any .404 factory load. There is no way to lengthen the magazine, as it is already opened up as much as possible by the factory. So, go for the 10.75x68, the 9.3x64 or forget it. One more obstacle: On all post-1952 M-Sch actions, including the Magnum ones, the cams that provide primary extraction ar machined as part of the barrel. Without the proper factory tooling, this makes rebarreling any post-52 M-Sch extremely difficult. I know a good gunsmith who did it once, but he will never try again.
See this thread also:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=122479&an=0&page=2#Post122479


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: kuduae]
      #237804 - 14/11/13 06:22 PM

Thanks Kuduae, and even if I can find a 10.75 MS I can´t buy ammunition as far as I can see !! ? I suppose someone in Europe hand loads it ? best, Mike p.s I was thinking of something made around 1930

Edited by Mike_Bailey (14/11/13 06:24 PM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237805 - 14/11/13 08:46 PM

OK, I have just found out that Holland made quite a few .375 belted in MS. Looking for one ! best

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kuduae
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237807 - 14/11/13 09:39 PM

Quote:

Holland made quite a few .375 belted in MS.



Yes, but that wasn't the now familiar .375 H&H Magnum, but the predecessor, the much smaller .400/.375 H&H belted aka .375 Velopex, see
http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/400-375%20belted.htm
and the 1910 Holland & Holland catalog, pages 52, 53:
http://www.rbsiii.com/nitro_express/H&H_1910_Catalog.pdf


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: kuduae]
      #237808 - 14/11/13 10:09 PM

Kuduae, I spoke to Pat at the Holland gun room and he tells me they made over 100 in .375 H&H (or bought them from Steyr and made them into that) so they are out there somewhere. best, Mike

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237809 - 14/11/13 10:13 PM

Kuduae, if I can´t find one in .375 H&H, is there an MS in a calibre (a pre 1935 rifle) which I could rechamber to .375 H&H ? thx in advance, Mike

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kuduae
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237811 - 14/11/13 10:39 PM

Pat is only partly correct here. H&H called the .400/.375 the ".375 H&H", other than the ".375 H&H MAGNUM". Hence the MAGNUM monicker attached to the longer and much more powerfull 1912 vintage cartridge. Look at page 52 of the 1910 catalog! There is simply no way to lengthen any M-S magazine and receiver to take the long .375 H&H Magnum or the .404. As I wrote above, even the post-1952 "Magnum" actions are limited to a cartridge over all length of 86.5 mm, the pre-war M1925 ones to 85 mm maximum. The .375 H&H Magnum has a max col of 91.44 mm, The .404 of 89.66 mm.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: kuduae]
      #237813 - 14/11/13 11:36 PM

Kuduae, where can I find a 9.3 x 64, pre 1935 ? How much ? thanks, Mike

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lancaster
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237818 - 15/11/13 03:42 AM

I dont believe the MS was made before WW 2 in 9,3x64

10,75x68 is made by Wolfgang Romey in Germany with Woodleigh bullets http://wr-munition.com/wrm-munition.html

the pre war 10,75x68 MS is real but very rare and we dont had one in this forum before.







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: lancaster]
      #237819 - 15/11/13 04:31 AM

Quote:

Kuduae, where can I find a 9.3 x 64, pre 1935 ? How much ? thanks, Mike



Nowhere at any price! Obviously you are not familiar the Mannlicher-Schoenauer receiver and magazine design. On the M-S the front and rear walls and the top sides of the magazine are integral parts of the receiver forging. As such, they cannot be moved back or forth without a complete redesign of the action. The original design, models 1900 to 1911, accommodated cartridges up to 78 mm over all. This includes the M-S 6.5x54, 9x56, 8x56 and 9.5x57 aka .375 Rimless Nitro Express (hence the ".375 H&H" name for the proprietary.400/.375), as well as some others like 7x57, 8x57 and 9.3x57, .375 H&H aka .400/.375 aka .375 Velopex, not offered by Steyr, but many were rebarreled by others. 78 mm was too short for .30-06 length cartidges. So when Steyr got a contract to make .30-06 M1924 rifles for Sequoia, they redesigned the whole action. They redesigned the receiver forging so that the rear wall of the magazine was placed more to the rear of the action. This necessitated a redesign of the trigger group too and the design of a new boltstop to allow for more rearward bolt travel. Then they made a longer cartridge carrier, magazine bottom ("carrier frame" in Steyr's parlance) and magazine cover plate. This redesign resulted in the prewar 1924 and 1925 action that could take cartridges up to 85mm. The M1925 was made in .30-06, 7x64 and 8x60S only originally. The 9.3x62, 83.6 mm over all, and the 10.75x68, 81 mm, were only added to the M25 offerings during the late 1930s, hence the rarity. But the 85 mm M1925 magazine was still too short for the 1928 vintage Brenneke proprietary 9.3x64, 85.6 mm over all. So are the standard post 1950 actions, which retained the 85 mm magazine. Only when Steyr was forced by popular demand to design their "Magnum" action in 1957, they milled out the magazine as far as possible, made longer cartridge carriers and succeeded to squeeze in the 6.5x68, 8x68, both 86.5 mm, and some others like .458 Win., .257 Weatherby, .256 Win., .338 Win., all "short magnums". But they never made a factory rifle in 9.3x64. So if you want a M-S in 9.3x64, you have to find a post-1957 "Magnum" action (many 6.5x68 barrels are burned out by now), find a very good gunsmith who is able and willing to reproduce the cams on the barrel and have the thing rebarreled. But there is absolutely no chance to build a .375 H&H Magnum or a .404 on any Mannlicher-Schoenauer action.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: kuduae]
      #237822 - 15/11/13 05:26 AM

Lancaster, where can I buy Lot 787 ??? best, Mike

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Huvius
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237828 - 15/11/13 09:05 AM

Here is a 375 for sale.
Looks pretty nice with exception of the pad.

http://www.bigfivehq.com/itemDetails.aspx?id=4574

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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kuduae
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Huvius]
      #237830 - 15/11/13 09:34 AM

Huvius' post of a M1911 M-S in .375 Rimless Nitro Express made me remember: Many years ago, in the 1980s, I visited a "name" gunshop in London. The salesman there showed me a Mannlicher - Schoenauer M1911 as a ".375 Holland & Holland Magnum". As it turned out, that man was not aware of the fact that there ever were other .375 cartridges besides the H&H Magnum.

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lancaster
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237842 - 15/11/13 05:21 PM

Quote:

Lancaster, where can I buy Lot 787 ??? best, Mike




if allways for sale you would not see pictures of the rifle before I have it in my hand's

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Marrakai
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: lancaster]
      #237847 - 15/11/13 07:55 PM

Quote:

and we dont had one in this forum before.




For those that may have missed my cryptic link, we have had the 10.75x68 Mannlicher Schönauer on this forum before:

Click Here

As far as I know, Geoff still has this rifle but he has moved to an adjacent town and I haven't caught up with him in a while.

If another were to appear at auction, anywhere in the world, I rather imagine the bidding would be fast and furious!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Marrakai]
      #237850 - 15/11/13 11:41 PM

Marrakai, can you ask Geoff if he still has it and if so will he give me first option, many thanks, Mike

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Caprivi
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Huvius]
      #237874 - 16/11/13 01:31 PM

Quote:

Here is a 375 for sale.
Looks pretty nice with exception of the pad.

http://www.bigfivehq.com/itemDetails.aspx?id=4574






This is a rifle I have followed around a bit, with always some distraction as to why I have not struck up a deal on it

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To live life as it is handed to me from God


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Huvius
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Caprivi]
      #237875 - 16/11/13 03:29 PM

It may be because it is waiting for me...
Muuust...reeesiiist...
I bet this would be one of those guns which you just never consider letting go of. So capable here in the Rockies...or America's Serengeti.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Marrakai
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Re: .404 Jeffrey [Re: Huvius]
      #237991 - 19/11/13 03:03 PM

Ooooh! 6.5 pounds wringing wet!
Lucky for the big sissy-pad, Caprivi.....

A very nice looking firearm though.
One of you guys should offer it a good home!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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