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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Handguns

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa

French Alps murders 2012
#237408 - 03/11/13 03:27 AM

I happened to catch a BBC special on the murders and it seems the French authorities are convinced the murder weapon was a Swiss Army luger, apparently largely because the caliber was 7.65 Parabellum (.30 Luger). One British firearms authority, Philip Boyce, is quoted as saying the ammunition must have been stored for decades or 'specially produced' as it hasn't been available for many years.

This is nonsense isn't it? .30 Luger ammunition is available new today from Prvi Partizan, Fiocchi, and others. As to the gun - there are Browning Hi-Powers, SIG P-210's, Walthers, and others available in this caliber. Unless the Swiss Army Luger marks the brass in a particular way, I don't know how they can say with certainty that it was this gun (without having the gun of course).

Maybe someone can enlighten me?

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: French Alps murders 2012 [Re: mckinney]
#237409 - 03/11/13 03:46 AM

I guess someone with the knowledge can determine what type of gun fired the brass based on the marks the ejector makes.
As for the supposition about the ammo, maybe they are basing that on the bullet construction or the headstamp on rhe cases.

Clearly, the "expert" knows nothing about the availability of newly manufactured ammo...

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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HistoricBore
.300 member

Reged: 28/09/11
Posts: 226
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: French Alps murders 2012 [Re: mckinney]
#237410 - 03/11/13 03:49 AM

I was in France last year when this story broke, and the French police changed their version of events frequently. I believe that many (30+) shots were fired. It is a very strange case but I believe that something may happen soon.

You are right to say that the ammo is available, but not now in Britain of course. Knowledge of pistol matters in Britain has decreased since the ban in 1996, so the 'expert' could be wrong....

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa

Re: French Alps murders 2012 [Re: HistoricBore]
#237412 - 03/11/13 04:13 AM

21 shots fired according to the Panorama story. This would have required 2 magazine changes in the 8-shot Swiss Army luger (7 shot magazine), but only one in certain other weapons chambered in that cartridge.

It is a very strange case that has fascinated me from the beginning. I hope they get to the bottom of it.

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Oldbrit
.333 member

Reged: 04/04/10
Posts: 381
Loc: UK

Re: French Alps murders 2012 [Re: mckinney]
#237419 - 03/11/13 06:00 AM

If the BBC trots out a firearms "expert" you can usually bet on the fact that he couldn't find his backside with both hands.

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9059
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: French Alps murders 2012 [Re: Oldbrit]
#237433 - 03/11/13 03:08 PM

Quote:

If the BBC trots out a firearms "expert" you can usually bet on the fact that he couldn't find his backside with both hands.

very possible you will find marks of the ejector, firing pin and the action in general which lead you to the luger pistol. the barrel profil you find on the bullets may also be different from post war pistols.
the 7,65mm parabellum cartridge is rare in the rest of the world but on this point near switzerland and italy its a more common thing. in switzerland they like it because of tradition and in italy it was for decades a replacement for the 9mm Parrabellum civilians were not allow to have as a forbidden military caliber.
I have to admit that such cases are interesting. in the early 1990s there was a murder in germany when someone was shot with an old french army pistol M 35 in 7,65 long.
the case was made by 32 s&w brass the rim turned down and cut a new extractor groove, trimmed and loaded with 7,65mm Parabellum FMJ bullets.

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