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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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Kappa
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Reged: 23/08/13
Posts: 20
Loc: USA
"Best" Shotgun Makers
      #237333 - 01/11/13 03:13 AM

Hey Guys,

So I'm just beginning my search for a 16 or 20 gauge side by side shotgun. I am looking to buy a first quality hunting (i.e. working) shotgun preferably in the British tradition. I'm looking for a first rate gun that I can hand down to my children. Nonetheless, this will not be a mantle piece and it must be primarily a hunting arm.

To be honest I'm not extremely familiar with all the gun makers in GB, but I do recognize that there tends to be an emphasis on the extremely exotic and very pricey makers (Holland, Purdey, Boss, etc.). However, I do know that traditionally there were/are those makers who build first and foremost "working" guns that are not nearly as pricey.

Are there any makers on the island who make "best" quality guns for less than 10,000 USD? I know there are makers on the continent, but right now I'm only concerned with British makers.

Thanks!

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Kappa]
      #237334 - 01/11/13 03:57 AM

I suppose you to first read this book. It helps you to understand better how to find good used gun with affordable money.



--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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HistoricBore
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Reged: 28/09/11
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Igorrock]
      #237337 - 01/11/13 05:24 AM

The above book is excellent about the earlier guns - do read it. He is also a dealer and has a website. I'm not clear if you were after a new gun or a secondhand gun. If new then your price level will be tricky. There are some makers now that use Italian or other parts and then finish them in England, but that may not be considered a "best gun".

I went round Westley Richards in the summer, and would definitely buy one of their guns if in the market, but I suspect it would be a lot more than $10,000.

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Nordmann
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: HistoricBore]
      #237341 - 01/11/13 06:26 AM

Question: Are there any makers on the island who make "best" quality guns for less than 10,000 USD?

Answer: NO. There a no current makers who will, or can make a "best" gun for $10K. The common law of business prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it simply cannot be done!

However, there are many older, second hand guns available which were made by "best" gunmakers, once upon a time. You will probably need to stretch to £10K (Pounds) rather than $10K (Dollars) for a reasonable side lock with sound barrels.

I wish you the best of luck in finding one!

Best
James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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Kappa
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Reged: 23/08/13
Posts: 20
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Nordmann]
      #237363 - 01/11/13 11:55 AM

Thanks guys. I'm totally okay with finding a used gun provided it is in excellent condition.

i will check out that book.

Forgetting "best" guns, are there any british makers that offer shotguns around my price point that are very high quality guns, but not necessarily considered "best"?

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Nordmann
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Kappa]
      #237366 - 01/11/13 12:42 PM

Question: Forgetting "best" guns, are there any british makers that offer shotguns around my price point that are very high quality guns, but not necessarily considered "best"?

Nope, don't think so. sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the cheapest new guns currently available would probably be Longthorne guns, but they are far from "very high quality" and most definitely not "Best guns" by English gun standards. http://www.longthorneguns.com/

They seem however to have found themselves a niche in the starter end market for O/U only.

A new "Best" British side lock gun will cost anywhere from £35/40K up to £100K depending on the engraving, wood and finish. A good oak and leather case will cost £5-7K on top!

In my opinion, the only truly "Very Best guns" are made by Hartmann & Weiss in Hamburg Germany, they are just in a class of their own!

Edited by Nordmann (01/11/13 12:51 PM)

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Kappa
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Nordmann]
      #237372 - 01/11/13 03:07 PM

Wow. Okay, I guess I am completely out of my league with the British makers.

I guess I will turn my attention solely to the continent until I win the lottery or become very wealthy.

How do AyA shotguns stack up to other makes?

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Marrakai
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Kappa]
      #237373 - 01/11/13 03:21 PM

Kappa:
PM sent.
Good luck in your quest.
Cheers

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Marrakai]
      #237381 - 01/11/13 07:36 PM

Kappa, if I were you I would look around, read Diggory Hadokes´ book and give him a call, I reckon you could find a good Westley Richards droplock for the sort of money you are talking (obviously old but if in good condition a "best gun" IMO. Talk to Diggory, best, Mike

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mckinney
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237400 - 02/11/13 08:17 PM

You might want to consider a used boxlock from one of the Scottish makers. Makers like Harkom, etc. turned out some lovely stuff with beautiful lines. You could get an excellent piece for under 10K USD and it wouldn't be out of place in any company.
If you're inclined to look at the Scottish makers there's a good article by Gavin Gardiner somewhere on his website.

If you're after a true best gun, you'll probably need to triple the 10K budget for a good used example.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Kappa]
      #237624 - 09/11/13 05:55 PM

Quote:

Wow. Okay, I guess I am completely out of my league with the British makers.

I guess I will turn my attention solely to the continent until I win the lottery or become very wealthy.

How do AyA shotguns stack up to other makes?



The Spanish guns sell very well in the UK, the prices being lower.

Also be aware some gunmakers actual production is outsourced to Spanish and other makers, with only the brand being British.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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steve20
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: NitroX]
      #238088 - 21/11/13 03:13 AM



Have a look here, http://www.gmackinlay.com/

It will give you a good idea of what is available for the sort of money that you wish to spend.

You should be able to pick up a nice gun for your 10k, but it would be unlikely to be "best", I'm afraid.


Steve.

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scraggoak
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: steve20]
      #266191 - 10/06/15 04:24 AM


Aya Shotguns are fantastic value for money A used AYA number 2 Sidelock is the perfect game gun and looked after will last a lifetime expect to Pay between £1000 to £1500 for a good used one, or maybe an AYA number 4 delux boxlock £700 to £1200, I own and use four aya's and can't fault them.

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Iowa_303s
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: scraggoak]
      #266207 - 10/06/15 08:57 AM

Kappa,
I will second AyA shotguns.
I have a #4/53 boxlock with that was made to my measurements.
The barrels are the length I wanted and are choked to my specifications.
I have used this gun to shoot all manner of winged game. Pheasants, quail, grouse, woodcock, doves, pigeons, ducks and even a few canada geese.
I ordered this gun to be built back in 1999 through Fieldsport in Michigan. With the fitting and all it was right at $2500. Never have I regretted doing it.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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BigEyeBob
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Reged: 12/05/16
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #305814 - 29/09/17 02:02 PM

I just picked up a very nice AYA model 117 Sidelock ejector ,hand detachable locks and Purdey hidden third bite ,wood is a bit plain , but its in top condition .I paid less than 3000AUD for it . Im very happy with the quality ,I would by another AYA with out hesitation . Even thier lower grade guns are excellent quality and value for money.

--------------------
I'm not young enough to know every thing .

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paradox_
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Reged: 12/05/07
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: BigEyeBob]
      #305850 - 30/09/17 01:43 PM

Kappa, focus on the 2nd teir English makers, and you will find what you want....but be patient.
The smaller bores will command an additional premium, Im afraid.
Good makers such as William Evans and the all of provincial makers all made excellent quality side locks that can be purchased for yout 10K.
Watch the london Auction houses, but make sure to get the bore specs before committing.

Best
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick

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008
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Reged: 25/03/17
Posts: 96
Loc: Houston, TX
Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Nordmann]
      #305863 - 01/10/17 09:12 AM

Quote:

Question: Forgetting "best" guns, are there any british makers that offer shotguns around my price point that are very high quality guns, but not necessarily considered "best"?

Nope, don't think so. sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the cheapest new guns currently available would probably be Longthorne guns, but they are far from "very high quality" and most definitely not "Best guns" by English gun standards. http://www.longthorneguns.com/

They seem however to have found themselves a niche in the starter end market for O/U only.

A new "Best" British side lock gun will cost anywhere from £35/40K up to £100K depending on the engraving, wood and finish. A good oak and leather case will cost £5-7K on top!

In my opinion, the only truly "Very Best guns" are made by Hartmann & Weiss in Hamburg Germany, they are just in a class of their own!



Nordmann, can you elaborate on the quality of Longthorne? I've considered one, but haven't been able to hold one. I'm very familiar with Purdey and Boss, how much more "budget" are the Longthornes?
Thanks

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Lockingblock
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: 008]
      #305877 - 01/10/17 04:54 PM

I've spent a good bit of time around high end shotguns and the Longthorne guns are very well made IMO.

I can see what they are doing...using CNC for the parts that can be CNC'd including a lot of the wood, then finishing by hand.

There are firms who are using some very good techniques that yield amazing results...lasers for engraving, as an example. It works exceptionally well and you can do things like copy a picture of a person...that would be hard to do by hand.

There are always going to be the folks who consider any gun that wasn't made under carbide lighting by a man with a tool he chiseled out of stone, to be "too modern"...I don't agree. While I don't want something just slapped together, there can be some real advantages to modern lasers and CNC, provided they are used appropriately.

If I were buying a new British shotgun, I would have to look very hard at the Longthorne shotguns. There is no reason to avoid CNC for a lot of the parts on a sidelock shotgun. It's just silly to sit there with a file and a block of steel when the end product isn't going to be better.

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008
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: Lockingblock]
      #305894 - 02/10/17 12:53 AM

I tend to agree, especially if you're not looking for hand engraving. If that is why you want the gun, that's a different story but for a gun that's going to be in the field and not a case, it doesn't bother me.

I love the history and the craftmanship but the financial gap seems too wide for a field gun these days.

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mckinney
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Re: "Best" Shotgun Makers [Re: 008]
      #305934 - 03/10/17 02:17 AM

I think the "best" makers are all now using CNC. There's a Holland and Holland video on youtube which shows a CNC machine making an action. To use an economist's term, I think the makers are just trying to extract the last ounce of "consumer surplus" from operations. That is, trying to ensure that the new guns go to the users who value them the most (or, more likely, value the brand most).

There's still good value in the used market for best guns. $30k will buy a very nice piece that will hold value and appreciate over time (but don't expect fast or strong appreciation). Other than best guns, the Scottish makers are good value. I have a very nice Charles Ingram sidelock, cased, that I bought at auction for $7k - love it. I think the P. Arizzabalaga (Spanish) guns are also beautiful to look at and offer good value. There's a world of good stuff out there and I don't know the half of it.

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