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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

450-400 3 inch loads?
#236989 - 22/10/13 10:57 PM

I got my Chapuis 450-400 3 back from JJ.

He re regulated it with Hornady 400gr DGX,. Shoots great once more. He could not figure out why it went to hell on me, but the problem appears to be solved.

My question is in regards to handload a to match the factory load. Even when I get the velocity close with the same DGX it does not shoot nearly as well. I can't quite get my head around the "magic" of regulation. Does any one have a load that comes close to matching the Hornady factory load?

All I want is a double under $15,000 that shoots 1/2 groups at 150 yards, is that to much to ask? Seriously though, if the rifle shoots 2.5 inch 4 shot groups at 100 yards with factory ammo, I should be able to do better then 4 inches with reload, right?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Rell]
#236990 - 22/10/13 11:08 PM

You should be able to do 4 inches with the right reload, yes.

That is if you do your part !!!

Firstly, do you now the factory load velocity ?

Secondly, do you have a Chronograph ?

Thirdly, what does it shoot with factory and your loads.

4, what other changes have you made / tried in terms of different powders ?

5. How are you shooting it ?
Standing, sitting ?

Also, what range are you shooting at. Get everything 100% at 50 yards first before going to 100 yards.

6. What target are you using and where are you aiming ?

Are you using an 8 inch Black and aiming for the centre bull ?

If so, I would suggest putting a 1 or 2 inch White Circle (Sticker) at the 6 o'clock position and use that as it is easier to ensure the same sight picture for BOTH shots.

Hope the above helps and isn't teaching you to suck eggs,
sorry if it is !!! LOL

Good luck.

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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#236999 - 23/10/13 08:57 AM

1. Factory DGX right barrel 2105 fps, left barrel 2157 fps. (Avergae of 10 shot strings).
2. I have a chronograph.
3. IMR 4831 comes close to those velocities and does not cross.
RL 15 and 19 both cross at near those velocities at 50m.
IMR 4350 had really wild SD between loads.
4. I've tried Fed GM Mag and Fed 215 primers.
5. Shooting off of sticks with a soft pad in the v and my wrist wresting on the pad. When I first got the rifle I was getting 2 inch 100m groups doing this.
6. It has a Leupold VX 6 1-6x24 illuminated on it. It was regulated with the scope. I'm using 8 inch dirty bird circle target.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Rell]
#237000 - 23/10/13 09:30 AM

OK, interesting.

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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#237001 - 23/10/13 09:34 AM

I'm the first one to admit what I know about double rifles would not cover a cocktail napkin.

What I was hoping is that someone has a rifle regulated for the same factory load I I could piggy back on their reloading work.

I also tried the best reloads with different crimp and no crimp, I'm almost ready to order 5 cases of the factory ammo and call it a day. But since I order 500 DGX 400 grain bullets already it seems a touch drastic to spend that much on ammo.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Rell]
#237005 - 23/10/13 12:05 PM

Well for a start I wouldn't use DGX bullets anyway but that's me and the reputation they have.

Just use the loads everyone else uses and drop 10% and work up.

And get a few Woodleighs to try as well.

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eagle27
.400 member

Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1136
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#237014 - 23/10/13 05:36 PM

I don't know much about regulating doubles although I have spent a lot of time shooting pistols, rifles and shotguns over a chronograph so know a bit about grouping and patterning.

Have you tried grouping from each individual barrel allowing time for cooling between shots. If one barrel shoots acceptable groups and the other does not then obviously you cannot expect to get good regulation.

If I were reloading for your double that is what I would try first, to get a load that groups well in one barrel then try the other. A load that groups individually well in both barrels will have a better chance of regulating.

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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: eagle27]
#237033 - 24/10/13 09:12 AM

The right barrel shots clover leafs at 50m, the left is not quite that good but it's still plenty accurate.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Rell]
#237036 - 24/10/13 10:19 AM

Rell

Here is a suggestion, done for 2 reasons

Shoot the gun WITHOUT the scope on with your most accurate load, one that you know where it is printing on the target.
I might even suggest shoot 4 shots at the target with the scope, mark the target L1, L2, R1, R2 and then shoot 4 more shot at exactly the same Point of Aim but without the scope.

See if that makes any difference.

I would suggest using a white dot as it is easier to hold the point of aim.

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bwanabobftw
.375 member

Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 670
Loc: Texas

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#237051 - 24/10/13 08:05 PM

Rell,
Let me say first that "500" is giving you sound advise. JJ used my .375 flange to build the first 450/400 rifle for Chapuis ,to check the viability of building the 450/400 on a smaller action than their .470. I bought the BBL's when JJ was finished , I also worked up a load to duplicate the Hornady Load . However , I used Woodliegh bullets. Chapuis wanted to offer a 450/400 that would be regulated for factory ammo and they chose the Hornady ammo (not me). Most of the work was done at 50 yards (not 100). I'm out of the Country right now , but will be glad to send you my load when I get back home. My load will cut a ragged hole at 50 yards, to be honest I have not shot it at 100 yards? Hope this will help you out.
Robert

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: bwanabobftw]
#237052 - 24/10/13 08:23 PM

Rell

I forgot to add.

Do all your shooting at 50 yards if you can, at least first up
and se how that goes.

I sometimes make it 50, 60, maybe 75 depending on the gun, how I feel, calibre etc but 50 is a good place to start.

Keep things simple and only change ONE thing at a time
with your loads otherwise you won't know what caused the change.

Re loads - nearly every load out there should be OK to use,
just drop 10% to start with unless you know it is well of the Maximum.

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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#237059 - 24/10/13 11:50 PM

I'll build some loads and try this procedure this weekend.

I'll order Wooleighs, it seems like they make 408, 410 and 411 for the 450-400. Which one should work best in my Chapuis?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Rell]
#237060 - 25/10/13 12:24 AM

Have you slugged your bore to see what the bore size is ?

I am not sure what Chapuis tend to be.

Might be worth emailing Chapuis and or Woodleigh to see if they know.

If in doubt, go .408.

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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#237068 - 25/10/13 06:05 AM

Have not tried slugging. The Hornady bullets it's regulated for is .410.

I'll try slugging it this weekend.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Rell]
#237072 - 25/10/13 06:47 AM

Rell

Have you done it before ? Slugging I mean ?

If not, use very soft led rod.

But if you are using .410 Hornady, just use .410 Woodleighs,
or .408, I doubt it would make much difference.

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#237087 - 25/10/13 04:06 PM

Rell,
There's a fair amount of loads listed in Graeme Wrights book "Shooting the British Double Rifle". This is a must have for someone to understand these beasts.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Bayoubob
.224 member

Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 9
Loc: Arkansas

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: AkMike]
#237261 - 30/10/13 01:29 PM

Rell, Try Reloader 22. In my Ruger #1 it matched the factory Hornady velocity (with DGX bullets and Hornady brass) at around 83 or 84 grains. (I pushed it on to 90 grains and 2230fps in the #1 but that's not what you want to do.) Since it burns slower it might help with the crossing problem when you get to factory velocity. The other factor which you touched on is the crimp. Try pulling a bullet from a factory round and measure the inside diameter of the neck. See if your resized cases are the same inside diameter. Your answer may lie somewhere in the case neck tension details whether from the crimp or the case neck itself. A 4 inch composite group at 100 isn't anything to be ashamed of either.

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Williford
.224 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Houston, Texas

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Bayoubob]
#238173 - 22/11/13 07:54 AM

I have a Heym 450-400 3" and had some initial problems in getting the barrels to regulate. The gun was originally regulated at the factory with Hornady factory ammo. Results below:

Factory Hornady 400 gr. loads:

2071 fps in right barrel
2086 in Left barrel

Barrels both grouped well separately but there was about 4 horizontal inches between each group.

Reloading results - all loads used RL 15 and Kynoch wads.

Hornady 400 gr. DGX and 69 gr. RL15
velocity - 2140 fps
very good regulation

North Fork 400 gr. softs and 68 gr. RL 15
velocity - 2150 fps
very good regulation

North Fork 400 gr. FPS and 66.5 gr. RL 15
velocity - 2145 fps
very good regulation

the North Fork softs and FPS both grouped together.

I obviously needed a little more velocity to get the barrels to regulate (for my shooting technique) than the loads the rifle was originally regulated with. I feel I could have also obtained good regulation using H4831 with no wads.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: Williford]
#238174 - 22/11/13 07:56 AM

deleted due to a Doh ! moment

Edited by 500Nitro (23/11/13 12:32 PM)

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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

Re: 450-400 3 inch loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
#238182 - 22/11/13 09:52 AM

I've been swamped with work and a hunting trip to visit my farm in Quebec.

I have a4 day weekend coming up and will try some of the loads listed, starting a couple of grains below.

Much appreciated.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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Williford
.224 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Houston, Texas

500Nitro [Re: Rell]
#238234 - 23/11/13 11:38 AM

The factory loads (what the rifle was regulated with) averaged about 2078 fps in my gun and all of the listed reloads were over 2100 fps?

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: 500Nitro [Re: Williford]
#238237 - 23/11/13 12:33 PM

Willi

I have deleted my post !!!

Sorry, that was one of those moments !!!

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Rell
.375 member

Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA

Re: 500Nitro [Re: 500Nitro]
#239130 - 11/12/13 12:59 PM

[image]http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/Otterlake19/media/IMG_1938_zps993bf0cf.jpg.html?sort=3&o=33[/image]

Two recovered 400gr Hornady DGX bullets from two blue wildebeest.

317.7gr and 358.3gr.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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