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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
.500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo
      #236848 - 18/10/13 11:05 AM

All:

I've got a very basic question for the good folk with some experience hunting Cape buffalo: the question is related to the power of .500 nitro express velocities suitable to slay one of these tough beasts... I have shot some .570 grain factory Hornady DGX loads through a chronograph at 20 feet from the muzzle and have achieved a velocity reading of 2050fps. My hand loads of .570 grain Barnes TSX FB register at 1850 fps across the chronograph. The issue is that my hand loads will do a composite group of 2" by 1.5" at 100 yards, 1" to the left of the bullseye so my hand load accuracy is fantastic. The factory loads don't give a composite group worth a damn in my double rifle so I'm inclined to shoot what is accurate.

Herein lies my dilemma: given the factory loads have loads of power but not so good on the accuracy front, I would prefer to hunt with the accurate Barnes hand loads. Am I producing enough power with my hand loads assuming up to 100 yard shots to comfortably hunt Cape buffalo, or for that matter, hippo (with Barnes solids @ the same velocity and POI) with my hand loads?

All opinions welcome.

Many thanks,

Steve aka "The Postman"

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236849 - 18/10/13 11:14 AM


Steve

Why are they only doing 1850 fps ?

If hand loads, can't you bump up the powder ?


Personally, I'd want a little bit more, at least over 1950 fps
so when it gets to 100 yards it still has that little bit more oommph.

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Cazadero
.375 member


Reged: 17/10/11
Posts: 561
Loc: Texas
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236850 - 18/10/13 11:36 AM

Postman,

Here's an opinion, (you did ask after all)

I am of course assuming that your planning to head to the field at sometime in the future, and if so I certainly wish you the best of luck (to be combined with your skills as a hunter), but accuracy-shmacuracy, I think you are kind of missing the point behind hunting with a double.

I'll leave the discussion of ballistics to the experts who peruse these forums.

But if you intend on hunting the greatest game in the world, and your doing it with a double, then plan on working your way in close. You are not out to shoot prairie dogs from a comfortable rest after all.

Find yourself a good Zimbabwean outfitter, and tell him that you aren't shooting anything at more than 50 yards. Stay away from any fenced properties and any put-and-take operations. Go hunt a real wild bull, and when you are close enough to smell him and you can hear the flies, then give him the left and then the right for good measure.

At close range, and inch or two shouldn't matter.

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Claydog
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Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 937
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Cazadero]
      #236851 - 18/10/13 11:51 AM

Just how bad is the accuracy with the Hornady?

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Claydog]
      #236855 - 18/10/13 02:19 PM

So at 50 yards, the accuracy is around 10" composite group. Barrels crossed, and shooting a foot high but a diagonal pattern. Sloppy in my humble opinion. As I reduce the charge, the accuracy improves until I get an amazing composite group. Unfortunately, it comes at the price of miserably low velocity/energy. I have engaged a reputable Zimbabwe outfitter w/solid PHs on staff, so I'm sure they would get me up close and personal at the asking. I really do NOT wish to screw up my 1st shot at DG, hence the question. How well does a .500NE penetrate nasty bone, gristle as the distance grows at the velocities quoted?

I have booked a safari, ergo the question. I am loathe to screw up the vital first shot. I apologize for the newbie question, but the DG game is one I've simply not played as yet, so I'm really interested in what good looks like from a velocity/power perspective. Will a 1/2" diameter 570 grain Barnes TSX FB have any appreciable penetration with a possible 1600 FPS / 3600ft/lbs energy impact velocity if I strike at 100 yards. How far should I saw off as maximum??

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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236857 - 18/10/13 02:40 PM

@ Cazadero: there is great wisdom within which you espouse.... I guess I am looking for the boundaries as to what is possible/realistic...... To shoot is wonderful. To hunt is to get closer or closest...... Just how close is "close enough"? My only hunting experience is whitetail, moose and long range caribou...... I really fear being under powered in the D G game. The low power load gives me major confidence in the gun and my ability to hit up to 100 yards with iron sights. I question the load. Will it reliably slay the beast? Do I need to be 10 yards away? 30? Where do I draw the distance line?

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Claydog
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Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 937
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236858 - 18/10/13 02:51 PM

I don't know a lot about velocities, energies etc but for me I wouldn't be too comfortable at 100 yards with an open double. The one I just shot was with mt PHs 500 double at about 25 yards. The accuracy you are getting sounds bad for any range. If it were me shooting a 500 I would want full power and penetration from it. My hunt certainly gave me a new appreciation for a powerful double. The cover and style of our hunt meant a shot of even 50 yards would have been unlikely. Hopefully someone can chime in regarding penetration and velocities. Is reregulting with full power loads an option?

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Claydog]
      #236860 - 18/10/13 03:11 PM

Full power loads would be possible to near 100 yards with the left barrel reasonably on target. The right barrel would be at least 18" off target, high and left. 50 yards means an 8" composite group with this double rifle and full power loads. I know the shot placement well enough that I could compensate for crappy regulation with factory loads, but this is not optimal. I am worrying myself to death over whether I practice compensating for full power shortcomings or whether I worry about sufficient penetration of hand loads that will strike the bull every time. Given the left barrel would be ok wit h full power loads, I would need to adjust many years of front tigger then left trigger discipline to be opposite so I use the left bbl 1st?

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236861 - 18/10/13 04:09 PM


Steve

Have you tried other bullets ?

Like Woodleigh Hydros, Normal Woodleigh's and others.

This might make a difference.

I wouldn't go hunting with a double that was not accurate,
trying to compensate for it is a PITA.

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ozhunter
.400 member


Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236866 - 18/10/13 06:38 PM

Load some Woodleigh FMJ bullets to a velocity of between 2000 and 2100 fps. If you can hit a dinner plate off hand at around sixty yards regularly with it, then your in business.

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gwh
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Reged: 28/01/08
Posts: 277
Loc: Cairns Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: ozhunter]
      #236867 - 18/10/13 09:08 PM

I would not be comfortable hunting with the accuracy of the DGX load and would want traditional 500NE ballistics for Cape Buff - I echo the sentiments above and would think that it is well worthwhile spending more time on the range with different projectiles. Nothing worse than going hunting with a rifle that you are compensating for. Out of interest, what is the rifle?

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: gwh]
      #236868 - 18/10/13 09:58 PM

Bullet selection is pretty limited in Canada for this caliber. Barnes are reasonably easy to get, Woodleighs show up only very rarely, and Swift does not export to Canada at all. The rifle is a Heym PH 88B. Each barrel on it's own is extremely accurate, but the composite group, not so much unless the load is reduced. With the reduced load, it is child's play to tear the centre out of the bullseye with the composite group. I will try other bullets, and maybe other powders and will get the velocity up toward full power to see what happens. I do appreciate all the good advice everybody has shared - thank you! I suppose I was hoping that with a bullet that large/heavy, I could live with the reduced from full power load so the gun regulated well. Looks like I'm headed back to the load bench and lots more range time!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236869 - 18/10/13 10:06 PM


"Woodleighs show up only very rarely,"


You don't need to go through the US to get Woodleigh's,
they can be sent direct from Aus if needed.

Even a few just to try.


I'd try other powders before other bullets.
Especially slow powders.

500 Nitro's are normally the easiest guns to get shooting accurately.

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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236870 - 18/10/13 10:48 PM

I have a thought, why not get it re-regulated?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Rell]
      #236871 - 18/10/13 10:52 PM

If you are having trouble getting reloading components I may be able to help.

I live in New York but I'm driving up to the Ottowa valley November 2nd for the whitetail opener. If you PM me, you can ship reloading components to my address and I'll put them in the Canadian post when I get to Quebec.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Rell]
      #236878 - 19/10/13 01:45 AM

Postman - have you tried www.tradeexcanada.com? They sell Woodleighs

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Rell]
      #236882 - 19/10/13 02:23 AM

Quote:

I have a thought, why not get it re-regulated?



That is a last resort item.

Heaps of things to try first before that.

Different bullets
Different Powders
Bullet seating depth
Different primers

to name a few.



Edited by 500Nitro (19/10/13 02:28 AM)

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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236887 - 19/10/13 08:33 AM

Have you contacted Heym and asked what load the gun was originally regulated with? Also, how are you shooting he gun (i.e. Standing with cross sticks, sitting behind a lead sled, etc.)? Your method may be contributing to the accuracy issues.

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #236896 - 19/10/13 01:47 PM

The gun was regulated with 570 grain DGX. Shooting position is sitting down, gun in my hands, the lower part of my left forearm resting on a range bag for steadiness. I have also shot from sticks and standing up free hand. Shooting position has made no difference except my shooting is a little sloppier standing up free hand. Firm grip on the forearm. The factory target shows two bullet holes touching at 6 o'clock from the bull, presumably the factory showing off with perfect 50 yard regulation. At 50 yards, with full loads or factory I'm shooting minute of dinner plate. Left barrel shoots clover leaf group @ 4 o'clock 6" low. Right barrel shoots another impressive clover leaf 1" to left of bull. The factory target does say the group was shot with a scope. I'm using the iron sights. I will try a different powder or rather powders next. Is it unreasonable for me to expect a tight composite group at 100 yards? I'm comfortable shooting to that distance with iron sights.

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236908 - 20/10/13 01:27 AM

So, I've pondered the good advice the membership has graciously shared (thanks to all !!!) and I am going to embark upon a path of alternate powders as the 1st order of business.

At the risk of imposing further, I am interested in pet loads anyone might be willing to share using the following powders I have on hand:

1. Varget (A2208)
2. IMR 4320
3. H380
4. RL-22

My favourite powder for several cartridges is Varget and consequently I have lots of it on hand but no recipes whatsoever for it in .500ne so I don't really know where to start with that one. For the others, I do have a recipe starting point but am interested to hear of any success stories (or heaven forbid, horror stories)

Thanks to all in advance!

The bullets will be Barnes TSX FB, Hornady brass, and Fed 215m primers. Brass full length resized. Primer pockets uniformed using a Sinclair uniforming tool, Brass length is trimmed to 2.994", never allowed to exceed 2.998" before trimming, then chamfered and deburrred. OAL = 3.765". The brass/bullet combination has thus far resulted in a neck diameter of .5268" and I expect the next round of loads to be similar.

I will of course report back any results obtained.


Edited by Postman (20/10/13 02:12 AM)

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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236909 - 20/10/13 02:40 AM

The Krieghoff I used to have liked the following load.

570gr Woodliegh
Jamison Brass
CCI LRM primer
105gr IMR 4350

Make sure you have a good crimp on each round. I used to clamp a padded bracket to one of the roof posts at my range, this gave me a steadying rest for the back of my left hand, I would shoot standing offhand this way to keep the recoil correct and to get some added sight stability.

Did you buy the Heym new? Another option is to have them sort it out.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #236929 - 20/10/13 11:02 AM


Postman

Geoff McDonald - Woodleigh doesn't like AR2208 in the big calibres, reckons you get pressure spikes with it.

Personally, I have taken his advice and never used it.

I use 2209 and 2213 as the two.

As I have said above, use a slower powder.


Interesting you say the guns factory target was with a scope and you are shooting open sights. Do you have the scope and I wonder if that target is two shots from the right barrel ?

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JeffK
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Reged: 06/03/11
Posts: 95
Loc: Perth, WA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236931 - 20/10/13 12:48 PM

I don't have a double in 500NE, but when I was doing the load development for my Ruger No. 1, I just took the recommended loads out of Graeame Wright's book, which was 103-106gn of AR2209 (H4350) for a 570gn bullet. For me, the 103gn shot nicely enough, but obviously I didn't have regulation to worry about.

--------------------
Regards, Jeff

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4205
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: JeffK]
      #236933 - 20/10/13 02:25 PM

Postman, like JeffK, I have a Ruger No1 in 500NE. I used Graeme Wright's load of 106gn AR2209 (H4350) it got to 2200fps in my rifle - but I have a 30" barrel & run BP thru it as well.
It torqued quite a bit in my rifle so I decide to try AR2208 (varget) instead.
I got to 92gn (Hornady brass, Federal 215 primer & 570gn Woodleigh softs)for around 2160fps, it doesn't kick like the heavier 2209 load, but as I have a lot more safety up my sleeve in regards to action strength I would back off this load by at least 5 gn & work up from there.
I would get Graeme's book "shooting the English double rifle" as it was invaluable for full nitro loads, Nitro for black loads & Black powder loads (including duplex BP loads) for the 500NE.
It give great advice in regard to regulating loads & what to look for - loads too fast/too slow etc.
He doesn't state any full AR2208 loads for the 500NE, but if you get a mate to check for you use Quick load or Load for a disk start at the lower end & work up from there; a simple powder change can make a huge difference in grouping.
Sorry mate but unfortunately I didn't keep any lower data on my work up to my full AR2208 loads.
Graeme's NFB load of 72gn AR2208 behind the 440gn Woodleigh (wad needed)& 215 primer is amazingly accurate in a mate's Sabbati double! I use that as a pig load.....great splat when it hits!

All doubles have a sweet spot, you just have to find yours - but I would recommend the Woodies as they are designed specifically for the old English calibres.
It will be worth it in the long run mate, to get a double to regulate is the ultimate in reloading!
All the best mate - keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Cheers
93x64mm

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larcher
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Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: 93x64mm]
      #236946 - 21/10/13 06:38 AM

Postmanbut

Enjoy this moment, it's almost the best with "the last moment" tinkering, when fastidiously checking everything and doubting. That's especiually true with reloading options, but in my case it was worse AND HIGLHLY ENJOYABLE with customising my bow and arrows.

I don't have a 500 but a 470. At 50 yards the right barrel shoots a little under 2 inches right, with a standard reloading using Woodleigh either soft or solid..........and preferably Federal 215 primers. Sacrificing group for standard oomph.
I recommend that you try other bullets if you can but all in all the best of buff hunting is the approach, and at 50 yards or less, accuracy isn't the main concern. Should a charge happen, you'll be graced as it's very rare and thren it's mainly the PH's job. I have spent more than 35 days just trying to approach ever scampering buffalos.
Keep on brainstorming, it's fun and that makes me feel sure that at the right moment, you'll be fully ready.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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