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Spud303
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Reged: 25/05/11
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Loc: ACT, Australia
Forming cases for 6.5x53R
      #236520 - 08/10/13 07:42 PM

I managed to pick this 1899 Steyr Mannlicher in 6.5 x 53R up at the Melb auction. The photos don't do it justice as it is great condition with an excellent bore. Should be a great shooter. Barrel is marked "Nitro proved. Shot & regulated for Manton & Co Calcutta by George Gibbs, Bristol.

I'm just about to order up a set of dies from CH4D and would like some advice on forming cases from .303 Brit. Should I order case forming die as well?
This is my first Mannlicher and I'm very pleased to have found one in such nice condition.
Thanks
Spud [image]http://s1227.photobucket.com/user/Webley455/media/Steyr189965x53RGibbsb_zps94e8083d.png.html?filters[user]=124406958&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1[ [image]http://s1227.photobucket.com/user/Webley455/media/Steyr189965x53RGibbsA_zpsba65b0d5.png.html?filters[user]=124406958&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0[/image] /image]

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Igorrock
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Spud303]
      #236523 - 08/10/13 08:16 PM

I canīt see those fotos so I help you a bit. Very nice rifle, I especially like that box which model is IMO quite uncommon.






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Spud303
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Igorrock]
      #236524 - 08/10/13 08:32 PM

Igorrock...thanks very much for your help with the photos. Still trying to figure out what I did wrong!
Yes it's a nice little outfit with the fitted box etc. My new Fallow deer rifle once I get some ammunition sorted out.
Spud

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Spud303]
      #236528 - 08/10/13 11:11 PM



I've not bothered with the form die.

I trim the .303 brass to length and run through the FL die.

I use Winchester brass as I find Remington tends to crumple.

Use a good lube, not just a case size. I use the Lee stuff in the tube or CH4D's own paste.



.

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Carpetsahib
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Spud303]
      #236532 - 09/10/13 02:11 AM

You may not need case forming dies. You can remove the bullet seating punch and use the bullet seating die as a case forming die. I have found that that works extremely well in reforming .444 Marlin brass to 7x57R.

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kuduae
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #236547 - 09/10/13 08:07 AM

I use a 7x57 FL die, expander stem removed, first. Followed by a 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer FL die. Trim to length. Some rifles need a slight reduction of rim diameter.

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Claydog
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: kuduae]
      #236549 - 09/10/13 09:01 AM

That is a nice Steyr. I like the straight stock on this one. Any chance of more photos? I bought Bertram cases for mine.

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Spud303
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Claydog]
      #236555 - 09/10/13 01:34 PM

Thanks to all for the tips on forming cases.
Claydog. I like the straight stock too. More photos when I finally get my hands on the rifle...currently in my "28 day cooling off period".... Curse you John Howard!!

What does "shot & regulated by George Gibbs" actually mean? Did his company fit the sights(rear -standing 100 yds and 2 folding leaves, front - hooded silver bead)? What bullet weight & speed combination should I be aiming for? Thanks
Spud

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Claydog
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Spud303]
      #236556 - 09/10/13 01:41 PM

Spud,
I have an Army Navy Steyr that has shot and regulated by army navy etc. I believe it to mean they received the completed rifle and literally shot it and regulated the sights before on selling. Look forward to seeing some photos, especially of any numbers and markings.

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Igorrock
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Claydog]
      #236560 - 09/10/13 06:58 PM

There is a big difference between Army & Navy and Gibbs. First one was just a trader but Gibbs had their own factory. IMO Gibbs bought the rifle in-the-white from unknown maker (from Birmingham..?) and finished it before selling to trader Manton & Co.

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Claydog
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Igorrock]
      #236561 - 09/10/13 10:28 PM

Igorrock
Agree, there is a big difference between Gibbs and Army Navy. It had always been my understanding, quite possibly wrongly, that when marked " shot and regulated by ", that was all that company had done. Mine looks almost identical to a Gibbs I have seen but of course there is the possibility that my Army Navy came from Gibbs. It does have a number on it with a B which I have been told is a Gibbs trait. I am always keen learn more on these.

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2152hq
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Claydog]
      #236585 - 10/10/13 12:21 PM

I use a 308 or 300Sav die to sometimes push the shoulder back first,,but not always.
I find it's needed more on 303 HXP military brass that I use a lot rather than the 30 Krag brass I use occasionally. Heavier constructed I guess.

Otherwise lube it up well especially at the base. Avoid too much lube around the neck or you'll get dents in the reformed neck. One push into the 6.5 die and there's your case but with some trimming to do of course.
An intermediate step into a 7mm die or something else close to that is a good idea but I've been lucky not having any problems sidestepping it (so far).
Some brass may buckle w/o doing that though.

I use 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer dies.
The 303 HXP I have to reduce the base a few .000" before they'll chamber. Not needed on the Krag brass (Remington). But I'd rather keep the Krag brass for the Krag as it's getting harder to get now.
The HXP needs an inside neck ream to remove a 'step' inside at the bottom of the neck from the forming process. No reamer available, so I used and continue to use a 'G' drill (IIRC that's the one I keep in the box). It's about .262d and cleans everything up OK.
Once they are 'drilled', I run them through the FL sizer again only this time with the expander plug in place and the necks are ready for a bullet to be seated.
Never had a problem.

No rim turning but I've read where some have had to do that so they'd work OK in their rifle.

220 Swift can also be used if your rifle will work with the smaller dia rim on that case.
The 220 case has 30-06 size rim, the body is about right for the 6.5. Not much trimming after reforming and no neck turning to be done.
Can be used to make 6.5 M/S too but you have to turn the rim down of course and cut the extractor groove out a bit.

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Huvius
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: 2152hq]
      #236586 - 10/10/13 02:03 PM

I believe that Gibbs probably barreled the gun with their own barrel and their style of sights.
The stock may just be from Steyr.
I had a similar rifle which had a "B" prfix number as well. It is my understanding that this is how Gibbs identified rifles which they rebarreled, either to resell as new or even in the case of rebarreling one of their own previously sold rifles as in the case of my Farquharson.

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kuduae
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Huvius]
      #236634 - 13/10/13 06:44 AM

AFAIK the Steyr factory did not sell barreled actions or actions only to other gunmakers. But as the M92, 93, 95 Romanian/Dutch/Portuguese military rifles were made only for export anyhow, they sold complete military rifles to anyone wanting them. As St.George Littledale once wrote to Denis Lyell: "In 1895 Sir Edmund Loder gave me a Mannlicher rifle, bayonet and all complete on the eve of starting for Tibet. Had only time to have sighting altered. On my protesting that I had a room full of rifles and did not want any more, all he said was try the Mannlicher, and like Lily Langtry and the soap, I have used no other since." (quote from Truesdell, The Rifle) The British imported the complete military rifles and sporterized them to varying degrees. Here are the Mannlicher ads from the 1910-11 Jeffery's catalog. As you see, the cheaper grades No. 4,5,6 retained the shortened military straight gripped stocks, with "civilian" sights and maybe checkering added, while the higher grades No.1, 2, 3 were restocked with pistol grip stocks. I know an "Army & Navy" M95 Mannlicher with such a sporterized and checkered military stock, still showing the plugged cleaning rod hole at the foreend tip.





Here is a Mannlicher that conforms in some way to Jeffery's No.1. It was proofed and probably restocked in Birmingham.



George Gibbs of Bristol did a lot of Mannlicher imports and remodelling in a quite distinctive style, also supplied other name gunmakers like Rigby, Fraser, Purdey or Atkins with his conversions. In wide parts of the British the 6.5x53R Mannlicher cartridge was called the .256 Gibbs Rimmed. According to Kirton Gibbs used the letter prefixes of his serial numbers this way:
A = completely made by us,
B = barrelled action by another, stocked, sighted and finished by us
C = complete gun bought in from another maker
This is my B-prefix G.Gibbs in .256 Gibbs Rimmed, receiver dated 1899. It retains the original Steyr military barrel, but stock, sling eyes and sights are clearly Gibbs.

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Huvius
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: kuduae]
      #236635 - 13/10/13 07:43 AM

Quote:

According to Kirton Gibbs used the letter prefixes of his serial numbers this way:
A = completely made by us,
B = barrelled action by another, stocked, sighted and finished by us
C = complete gun bought in from another maker




Hmmmm...
Not sure I would go with this entirely.
My 256 Gibbs Farquharson - obviously entirely made by Gibbs and rebarreled later by Gibbs - has a 'B' prefix on the barrel.
My Gibbs Mauser (.280 Ross) has a 'B' prefix number on the barrel and action.
My Gibbs Mauser (318) has a 'B' prefix number on the barrel but not the action. Same with the Steyr I had - 'B' on the barrel but not the action.

I surmise that the 'B' prefix denotes the changing of the barrel (maybe sighting, swivels etc.), not neccessarily that BOTH the barrel and action are from outside of Gibbs.

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kuduae
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Huvius]
      #236640 - 13/10/13 08:56 AM

Huvius, I see no contradiction here. Gibbs certainly never made their own Mauser actions and I doubt they had their own rifling department post-1900. They certainly bought in their smokeless barrel blanks, already reamed and rifled, from the specialized Birmingham barrel makers who supplied all the British guntrade.

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lancaster
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: kuduae]
      #236646 - 13/10/13 10:56 PM

Quote:

AFAIK the Steyr factory did not sell barreled actions or actions only to other gunmakers. But as the M92, 93, 95 Romanian/Dutch/Portuguese military rifles were made only for export anyhow, they sold complete military rifles to anyone wanting them. As St.George Littledale once wrote to Denis Lyell: "In 1895 Sir Edmund Loder gave me a Mannlicher rifle, bayonet and all complete on the eve of starting for Tibet. Had only time to have sighting altered. On my protesting that I had a room full of rifles and did not want any more, all he said was try the Mannlicher, and like Lily Langtry and the soap, I have used no other since." (quote from Truesdell, The Rifle) The British imported the complete military rifles and sporterized them to varying degrees. Here are the Mannlicher ads from the 1910-11 Jeffery's catalog. As you see, the cheaper grades No. 4,5,6 retained the shortened military straight gripped stocks, with "civilian" sights and maybe checkering added, while the higher grades No.1, 2, 3 were restocked with pistol grip stocks. I know an "Army & Navy" M95 Mannlicher with such a sporterized and checkered military stock, still showing the plugged cleaning rod hole at the foreend tip.




thanks kuduae for telling this story
to my knowledge Steyr was making 10000 M 92 and romania get only 5000 for a military test which led to the development of the Mannlicher M 93. until 1995 when the netherlands adopt the mannlicher M 92 as the model M 95 there was no need for Steyr to make another lot of this rifles and they had enough work to make the M 93 for romania.
does this means every british mannlicher was one of this 5000 not bought by romania? when the netherland order the M 95 Steyr had probably also no rifles for sale because to fullfil the order was more important than selling a sporter.
a problem for me is the so called "production overrun" by steyr. it was not common that a firm does making more than the order they had, it cost them a lot of money.
facts ,imho ,are: a big firm like steyr dont make a rifle for selling them as sporters, at least not in this time when every small bore bolt action was needed as a army rifle. they were busy more than enough to work for the big customers.
question is what had happen if Steyr dont had this 5000 rifles for sale. the sportsman's had probably to wait 5 years more when the Mauser 98 was making the the M 88 obsolete and surplus.
when was the lee enfield rifle first time available as a sporting rifle?

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Huvius
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: kuduae]
      #236651 - 14/10/13 02:53 AM

Quote:

Huvius, I see no contradiction here. Gibbs certainly never made their own Mauser actions and I doubt they had their own rifling department post-1900. They certainly bought in their smokeless barrel blanks, already reamed and rifled, from the specialized Birmingham barrel makers who supplied all the British guntrade.



I guess my point is that Gibbs used 'B' prefix numbers even when rebarreling their own rifles which they themselves manufactured.
Interestingly, another Gibbs Farquharson I own was rebarreled by Gibbs but has no numbering anywhere on the barrel at all.

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kuduae
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: lancaster]
      #236652 - 14/10/13 03:23 AM

lancaster, you simply underrate the manufacturing capacities of the Oesterreichisch Waffenfabriks- Gesellschaft, Steyr. During the 1890s Steyr was the biggest gunmaker in the world. Besides making thousands of Mannlicher M95 straight-pull rifles not only for Austro-Hungary, Bulgaria and even Siam, they made many other models for export just as orders came in and the customers could raise the funds. They made lots of (German)M88 rifles for export to Latin America. They even made M92/M96 actions and M92/95 actions side by side, with production years overlapping. For instance, my Portuguese M96 (same action as Rom. M93 with reinforced magazine box and ejector in bottom of receiver)has a receiver dated "Steyr 1898", while my Gibbs on a Dutch M95 action (same as M92 with ejector on bolt head) is dated "Steyr 1899". So it was no problem for OEWG to divert a few dozen rifles from the military production to fill a civilian order, f.i. from England. This happened post-1900 too. My M1900 Mannlicher-Schoenauer action with a B-prefix Gibbs serial number is dated "Steyr 1901". My Gibbs Mannlicher-Schoenauer on an M1903 action from the military production, but without a Greek crest, is dated "Steyr 1905". As you know, on Steyr made rifles you find the model designation on the receiver ring, the production year on the left receiver wall.

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kuduae
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Huvius]
      #236653 - 14/10/13 03:38 AM

Quote:

I guess my point is that Gibbs used 'B' prefix numbers even when rebarreling their own rifles which they themselves manufactured.
Interestingly, another Gibbs Farquharson I own was rebarreled by Gibbs but has no numbering anywhere on the barrel at all.


Yes, I agree, as Gibbs used "bought in" barrels for rebarreling. BTW, many of the .256 barrels on Gibbs Farquies I have seen look a lot like Steyr military barrels (spares?)to me, maybe rethreaded to fit the actions, but the shape is the same.

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Claydog
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: kuduae]
      #236660 - 14/10/13 01:29 PM

Kuduae
All the information above greatly appreciated.

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Spud303
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Claydog]
      #236668 - 14/10/13 06:26 PM

I've really learnt quite a bit from these posts. Thanks to all....now I really can't wait to get hold of my Steyr!
Spud

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Ireload2
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Spud303]
      #239408 - 17/12/13 11:56 AM

I have experimented with forming these cases a lot. Here is what I learned.
All dimensions in inches.

To do the intitial set up of your dies you can use once fired .303. Do not mess with once fired cases for actual shooting.

Start your brass for shooting with new cases. Most of mine are made from Hornady Frontier cases.
Due to the current high cost of brass make sure you have a good setup so you do not waste new cases.

There are a number of variations you can use to form these cases but this is the best for me.

1. Expand the case mouths to remove all the dents.
2. Use a Pacific 7.35 Carcano sizer to push the shoulder back. (die is .315" ID)
This sizer moves the shoulder back and supports it with out a bulge like you will get with a .308
Win. die. The Pacific is large enough at the base that it does not size the base undersize.
3. Size the neck with a Pacific 6.5 Carcano trim die. (Neck is .300 ID) Does not size the base.
4. Size the entire case with with a 6.5X53R trim die. My die is made by RCBS. Set headspace to the
shoulder so you can feel a slight drag when the bolt closes.
5. You can size only the neck with a 6.5X55 die or use a FL sizer.

If you have a .250 Savage trim die you will find it very useful for forming these cases too.
The neck is about the right size (trim dies are normally .010 larger than FL sizers) and the
small diameter shoulder works too.

Many dies and operations yes
I normally pre-trim after OP 3 Then trim again after op 4. My chambers are much longer to the
case mouth than the 2.110 lenght given for trim to length. They measure 2.153. Since the .303
body is smaller in diameter than the 6.5X53R it blows out a bit when fire formed and gets a
little shorter. I trim to 2.150-2.152. When fire formed they shorten to 2.148-2.145. After the
brass is fired once I resize and trim to 2.145.

The Dutch chambers are .453" in diameter at the rear just ahead of the rim.
Check your new brass to make sure it is .452" or smaller.
I have measured PRVI and old lots of Norma brass that are larger than .453. So stay away from
oversize case heads.

If you use this process and reasonable care you can get 100% yield from your new cases.
I would recommend you anneal the necks after the first firing.

Edited by Ireload2 (17/12/13 12:03 PM)

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tinker
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: Ireload2]
      #239420 - 17/12/13 02:59 PM

I've had great success with WW .303 brass directly to the 6.5 mannlicher dies.
My dies are 6.5x54 MS dies made at RCBS
My rifle is Jeffery 6.5x53r

FL size then trim one
Load and shoot
Set FL die to match shoulder at your chamber
Carry on...




Cheers
Tinker

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2152hq
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Re: Forming cases for 6.5x53R [Re: tinker]
      #239422 - 17/12/13 03:50 PM

I do the same as tinker,,straight into the 6.5 M/S sizer then trim them. I use some HXP 303 brass and with that I have to inside neck ream,,I use a drill for that. It's a common letter or number size,,don't recall which it is now. I just keep one in the die box for that purpose. Sounds crude but I see no difference at the range. It just removes a slight ledge at the bottom of the neck inside where it meets the shoulder on a freshly formed HXP military case.
Commercial 303 or 30-40Krag brass seems not to need any inside neck reaming,,at least none that I've used so far.

Don't be skimpy on the case lube when you do the sizing operation, just avoid excess on the neck so you don't end up with dents in the newly formed 6.5 neck.

Neck size only after the first firing. They last quite a while for me, but I use minimum or near min loads anyway.

I've had good luck using 220 Swift brass.
Not that 220Swift is all that common but you never know who has what lying around.
I was fortunate to have a 100 or so cases given to me.
Expands easily in one step, definetly easier to do than the 303 neck down process. The slight semi-rim of the 220 works in my rifle as well as the full rimmed variety case. Might not work in others though.
They make good 6.5 M/S cases if you turn the rim down.

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