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Seancass
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Reged: 30/11/11
Posts: 21
Loc: IN, USA
let's talk about Sabatti
      #235556 - 12/09/13 08:29 PM

I'm doing some shopping and I'd like some inputs.

On Sabatti, yes they had issues but they appear resulved.

I'd like to cover them in two discussions.

First, as an entry level rifle. How do they shoot? Fit, finish? How has yours held up to use? How has customer service been? Would you buy another? Have you modified yours to bring it up to your standards? Tell me about your rifle!

Secondly, lets discus them as a rifle that costs Three Thousand Dollars. I don't think anybody on this forum sneezes at 3k! This puts you in fine company in the rifle world. Are they really worth that kind of cash? Sure you get a double rifle, but are you getting your monies worth?

I'm looking forward both parts of this discussion.


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Seancass
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Seancass]
      #235559 - 12/09/13 09:35 PM

A little back story:

I went to cabela's yesterday to fondle the three sabatti's they had in stock, 45-70's, used and new, and a 450/400. While i was there, i had to check out a few other doubles as well. The prices were about 2.8, 3.2 and 6k, respectively. The 45-70's seemed nice. The finish was a little faded on the used model. Otherwise fit and finish looked good. On the new 45, you could see the joints at the muzzle where the barrels and ribs come together. I felt like that should be seamless. They seemed to balance well amd fit me alright. I've never had a custom fit gun, but i was looking down the sights when i shouldered it. The 400 had noticeably more weight, and it felt more muzzle heavy. A feature i suspect i would appreciate if i shot it! I'm not considering the 400 for purchase, just for comparison. If someone has an opinion on it, I'll have a feel of it for reference.

I guess we could add a third category for judging the Sabattis: as a double rifle. I suspect some will have the opinion that its an alright rifle, decent enough quality, but in the world of double rifles, its the bottom of the barrel, so to speak.

Thanks for any input!

Edited to add:

Both the 45-70's had gorgeous wood! I mean, best grade walnut, simply stunning! Then it clicked in my head, it was TOO good. I'm sure it's some kind of laminate, or even a polymer. I think it's called Opti-wood? If anyone has more information on this, I'd like to know more. Google didn't tell me much.

Edited by Seancass (14/09/13 01:53 AM)


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Seancass]
      #235561 - 12/09/13 09:50 PM


"its the bottom of the barrel, so to speak. "

No, the Baikal / Remington takes that prize.

For $3,000, I reckon the Sab is good going in getting
into an entry DR AS LONG AS YOU GET ONE THAT IS OK.

I think Sab have fixed all the problems which is good.

After sales service in the US is great because
of Cabelas.


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235574 - 13/09/13 05:18 AM

Quote:

... a rifle that costs Three Thousand Dollars. I don't think anybody on this forum sneezes at 3k! This puts you in fine company in the rifle world. Are they really worth that kind of cash? Sure you get a double rifle, but are you getting your monies worth?




I am looking forward to handling a few of these now that Cabelas has opened two stores here in CO.
Here is my feeling on the matter.
Some have bashed the Sabatti from the get-go. Some deserved and a lot undeserved and it is common for some to say to save up for a Merkel, Chapuis, Krieghoff, etc (read "real double rifle") but I know that is not an option for most enthusiasts on a budget.

$3K is still $3K and nobody wants to get taken for three grand regardless of what their finances are. You can do a lot with $3K but really, that money doesn't go far in the custom rifle world and goes vitually nowhere in the double rifle world so the Sabatti is definitely filling a niche.
As for value, I expect full price Merkels, Chapuis etc. to lose more value (in dollars but maybe not percentage) than a Sabatti since the Sabatti is very near the bottom of the double rifle price range already.

In short, if you get one that shoots well for you, then I can't say it would be a bad deal at all. Who knows...maybe I will need one once I get a good look at them..

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Mike_Johnson
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Huvius]
      #235641 - 15/09/13 11:59 AM

I just bought one in 9.3x74R. Actually traded for it with a shotgun and a single shot. It shoots great. The wood is Turkish walnut. The opti-wood was described as a protective finish. The fit of the wood is not perfect like the upper doubles. The action a bit stiff. But this one handles well, shoots great. I put a leupold VX- R 1.5x4 Hog illuminated scope on the provided rail. I like that set up too. Have a WR sling coming for it. Going to use it for deer, hog and maybe something else and that will let me know if I am fully pleased with it. I know I'm happy with the $3k I saved by not buying the used Merkle I was thinking about. It's not my kreighoff in 470. But then I already have one of them. I think it will be a keeper since I'm planning all sorts of hunting trips with it. Another reason I am happy to have saved the $$$$

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Jumbo
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #235652 - 15/09/13 05:33 PM

I'm following this with great interest!

I am looking for. .450NE, but obviously the pricing on the Sabatti is attractive! I have heard from a DG PH in RSA who has one and says it is great!

I am off to RSA in October to see the rifle and shoot it (very accommodating guy) and will be able to comment first hand after that. I have however herd the Italian customs laws have changed and stock of Sabatti's is a problem at the moment, but that won't last too long I am sure.

I understand the guns with "X" serial numbers have all been made and regulated correctly. (I.e. post the grinding issue)

--------------------
Decisions made.......now to find the gun!
.450NE is still the dream, but along came the Krieghoff .470NE.........couldn't say no!


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Jumbo]
      #235657 - 15/09/13 08:09 PM


Jumbo

Cabellas has a 450NE in stock. Will try to remember which store.

I think you are correct re the X's in the serial number.


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235658 - 15/09/13 08:36 PM


Can'tvouch for the accuracy of thisor the $$$$.

"Cabelas Grand Junction CO today and
they had a new Sabatti 450 NE on sale
for $3500."


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Jumbo
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235663 - 15/09/13 09:50 PM

.500Nitro,

Thanks man, just wish I was in the states! I'm in Zambia, and we can't import directly from USA to Zambia, some gun law.....suspect it's an American law, but not sure.

Anyone with ideas of how to buy a gun in USA and get it out here.......I'm all ears!

Thanks for the head up though.......

At the moment trying to buy one in RSA, unless I can get directly from Italy....

--------------------
Decisions made.......now to find the gun!
.450NE is still the dream, but along came the Krieghoff .470NE.........couldn't say no!


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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Jumbo]
      #235666 - 15/09/13 11:22 PM

I have had both spectrums in the Sabatti rifle. My first one was a disaster, it would not regulate and finally the top rib shot loose. Cabela's gave me the option of a complete refund or a replacement rifle. I chose the replacement.
The new rife I am extremely pleased with. it regulates well and after several hundred rounds seem to be holding up well. I don't know about the "X" in the serial number, mine doesn't have it and no grinding at the muzzle. It did have "Opti" wood, which is a very plane wood I understand from the "Med" that is put through a dip process, which lays a micro plastic film with a wood grain on the stock. I did not like the phony wood grain. I had access to some very nice walnut and re-stocked the rifle myself. I also did not like the rear sight so I made a two leaf express sight for it. I am very pleased with the rifle I now have.
Bob


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Jumbo
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: aromakr]
      #235668 - 16/09/13 12:04 AM

Hey Aromakr,

Glad to hear you have a shooter. What calibre have you got?
How long ago did you purchase the first and emplacement guns?

--------------------
Decisions made.......now to find the gun!
.450NE is still the dream, but along came the Krieghoff .470NE.........couldn't say no!


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aromakr
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Jumbo]
      #235672 - 16/09/13 03:01 AM

Jumbo:
Its a 9.3X74R. I'll have to check my records on dates and get back to you.
Bob


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gungadoug
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: aromakr]
      #235745 - 18/09/13 12:00 PM

Here's a question- I may have one at a good price in the optowood, which is truly nasty! Anyone with experience in stripping and refinishing this? Is it just in the finish, or down in the wood? This may or may not be a keeper depending on how it regulates- came with a target, which looks good, but for a different rifle! Wrong numbers! I do have the opportunity to shoot it, with the option to return, but gotta do it this week.
Doug


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: gungadoug]
      #235749 - 18/09/13 12:58 PM


Not sure on the Optiwood.


That 450 NE is $3799 brand new at the Cabelas store above.

I might be swinging back the other way in my thoughts
on Sabs after listening to Cal Pappas and his latest appraisal of them.

So I should probably add, buyer beware !!!


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Seancass
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235767 - 18/09/13 11:20 PM

500Nitro, Can you expand on that post? What are your thoughts and which way are they swinging?

I think the Optiwood is like a plastic coating. Refinishing it might be like pealing the veneer off a piece of wal-mart furniture and hoping to find something other than particle board. You would be very committed to the change and if the wood underneath was worth seeing, it wouldn't be used for Optiwood! I'd like to hear about more experiences with this wood. For example, how well does it hold up, does it fade and is the finish easy to scratch or tear?

gungadoug, i would be a little nervous. Having a regulation target for the wrong rifle feels deceiving! As if they were hoping you wouldn't notice!

Thanks for all the replies guy! This is still high on my want list. I'm planning to have a Pedersoli double rifle shipped to this store so i can compare the two side by side. I'm also glad that the above mentioned 450NE isn't at this store or it would seem a little tempting too!

Edited by Seancass (18/09/13 11:51 PM)


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AkMike
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Seancass]
      #235772 - 19/09/13 02:43 AM

I've seen the rifle that Cal Pappas posted about at AR. It's one of the very early ones that were muzzle ground for regulation. The owner didn't bother to ship it back to Cabellas for exchange or refund. He's an Atty. and would rather make a mountain out of a mole hill.. He tried to get rid of it thru a local gunshop and sell it for more than new retail price.

Another one in 45-70 showed up that had the Opti-wood and actually was a good shooting rifle. No dremel regulation either.
The saving grace with these is the stellar iron clad guarantee from the retail giant that sells them.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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Seancass
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: AkMike]
      #235776 - 19/09/13 05:53 AM

I just read a thread on [blank] on Sabatti rifles, started on 15-Sept. That thread is what I don't want this one to be: One person bashing* and several others saying "Well, I heard..."

I started this thread because I wanted to hear from people who have actually owned them! If they aren't worth it, let's hear about it.

*I do not know Cal Pappas. Looking at his posts on AR and his website I suspect he is extremely knowledgable. However, one man shouting something, no matter how loudly he shouts, shouldn't make that a fact. I'd like to hear from others as well. Not to discount his apparent experience, but if he decided something was wrong early on(which it was) it would be very easy to find faults with anything from then on.


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: Seancass]
      #235779 - 19/09/13 06:04 AM

Seancass

You don't have to have owned something like a DR to have a valid opinion.

I have shot, handled many different makes of DR's that I have an opinion on and compared to those I have owned.

I was anti, then when they supposedly fixed the issues
gradually swung across, now am swinging back a bit.

Cal is worth listening to. His points are valid, it just depends on what weight you put to each point.

I put more weight on a gun shooting and less on wood to metal fit because of the price paid for the gun.

Edited by 500Nitro (19/09/13 06:05 AM)


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doubleriflejack
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: AkMike]
      #235783 - 19/09/13 06:31 AM

Seancass: "Joint at muzzle-barrels, thought should be seamless there." Not sure what you are talking about, but Sabatti joined barrels and ribs same way any of the other makers have done, or do today. But, maybe you were looking at a particular double rifle that had some sort of defect there; I can't say.
gungadoug/Jumbo and others: Opti wood stock wood. I can assure you that it isn't Turkish walnut; only a rank amateur not familiar with walnut wood might think it. A trained eye can readily tell that this fake wood grain on the so-called opti wood is not real at all. The real wood stock, real wood, but with plainest, cheapest possible wood, is "enhanced" with man-made overlay that is paper thin, so when it wears off, is scratched or otherwise damaged, it cannot be sanded down and refinished, unless one doesn't mind the ugly pain wood beneath. Personally, I would never own a gun/rifle with opti wood or anything similar.

What I have to say below, applies only to the higher grade big bore express Sabatti double rifles, as I own three of them (information below is a repeat of what I have said in an earlier post that appears to have not been read by many who have interests in the Sabatti double rifles. I have done quite a lot of custom work on all three of my Sabatti doubles, detailed below:

Initially, I bought a Sabatti .500 NE, even though I heard rumors that the Sabatti doubles had regulation problems with some examples (this was before the muzzle grinding issue became well known by most of us). Considering the price on them, and what I considered to be good quality, I thought that even if it wasn't regulated well, that I would regulate it myself, having been through gunsmithing class from W. Ellis Brown, converting double shotguns to double rifles prior to his writing book on same subject (now in 2nd edition), and having made several such conversions, I felt confident that I could do whatever was necessary, time wise, to re-regulate it well, and I thought that I could deal with any and all other potential problems that I may find. Well, as it turned out, my .500 shot well enough, certainly, on a horizontal plain poi. about one to two inches apart at 50 yards. However, for a .500, rifle was too light in overall weight, so I milled out a small area within the forend wood, and epoxied it in with lead, and I added a mercury recoil reducer, and now the weight, for caliber, is much better, but still not to my complete satisfaction. Custom work on all three of my Sabatti rifles include the following: I cut stock to my needed length, 14.5 inches, with good quality recoil pad installed (factory pad is not intended to be used, as it is as cheap as they come. For most shooters, Sabatti as well as numerous other modern double rifles are stocked longer than necessary, allowing for cutting to fit shooter. I added a much better recoil pad made by N E C G Company, one that slides on/off in an upward/downward motion, for easy access to the internal butt stock throughbolt. I love this type recoil pad, because it is especially great for guns with stock throughbolts, as they enable one to quickly slide pad on/off. They are available from New England Custom Guns in NH. Too, I added a steel grip cap, making for a much nicer look. I gold plated the triggers and all internal parts, except the mainsprings, for corrosion protection, though not necessary, and did some other internal work on the actions on all three of my Sabatti doubles, just fine tuning them for better overall functioning, though they clearly were already well made and highly polished internally, learning a few things in the process: These actions have only one coil spring, the top lever spring, while all other springs are of the traditional V type, including the mainsprings and ejector springs (only one of my Sabatti doubles have ejectors, all made extremely well, and of the finest spring steel. That speaks well of them, for I consider the V to be superior to the coil springs for such use, while so many modern double rifles are moving toward using more coil springs rather than the V type. Internal fit and finish of all parts is extremely good, about as good as any double rifle made anywhere, in my opinion, and I work on numerous German and classic British double rifles all the time, as comparison. I have been especially impressed by the high quality hard/tough ALLOY STEEL used in the actions. Based on this, I would say that the Italians know their steels well. The Sabatti factory told me that the actions are not cast, but are machined from a solid block of a modern high strength tri-alloy, heat treated steel. I found it to be very tough, with a hard surface, and plated with some sort of process, making it exceptionally resistant to corrosion. Now, the actions are also DESIGNED extremely well for a double rile action, much better than most any shotgun action, if one were considering making a conversion to double rifle the way Brown explains in his book. For using Sabatti double rifle to make another barrel set in a different caliber, explained again, in Brown's book, the Sabatti is especially thick on side walls and on all sides of the Purdey underbolt cutout, with quite large over-sized underbolt too, of finest steel. Some of these Sabatti rifles have been chambered for the .416 Rigby cartridge, a rimless round, designed for bolt rifles, rather than double rifles, and a cartridge that gives a bit more breech pressure than most double rifle cartridges up through the .500 NE, and the Sabatti holds up to those pressures, so I am sure that these actions will hold up to normal use from all normal rimmed "double rifle" cartridges with ease, up through the .500 NE. The action "engraving" is done by machine, I am sure, but is beyond doubt the finest machine made engraving I have seen on any and all guns. This "engraving" is very well done; deep enough to last forever; I like it. I LIKED MY .500 SO MUCH, THAT I DECIDED TO BUY ANOTHER, THIS TIME IN .470, and I found one with an especially nice figured butt stock, among the nicest grain figure I had seen on Sabatti rifles, and I have tried to see all of them that have been offered by Cabelas to date, shown on their online website. I gave my .470 the same treatment mentioned above, as my .500, but also added a steel TRAP grip cap, so the little cover could be opened to reveal spare firing pins I made for rifle. My .470 shoots as well as it looks, better than the .500, and even better than several classic English double rifles I own. I like it a lot, so I bought another in .450/.400, with the nicest figured wood grain I could find. It shoots well too, and is well regulated as all three of mine are. I overlooked mentioning that I stripped the stock finish, as I don't like the glossy varnish like finish that seems so common of guns/rifles today. I finished my Sabatti rifles with my special blend of alkanet stained London oil finish, which enhanced the grain remarkably.

NOW FOR THE UGLY PART OF THESE SABATTI RIFLES:

After doing all of the aforementioned, I learned that some Sabatt rifles have been "fine tune regulated" by grinding tops off some of the rifling lands near muzzle crowns, allowing exiting bullets to be "steered" one way or the other by the escaping gas. When I learned this, I raced to my Sabatti rifles, for examination to see if mine had this abomination treatment done to them, and was relieved to see that they did not receive such abuse. However, some buyers have found, and I have seen pictures of this, the aforementioned treatment, done in an effort to "fine tune regulate" them. Since writing the above, I have now seen a few examples of this muzzle grinding on a few Sabatti rifles in Casbelas stores. I take a dim view of such practices, only a short cut done to avoid proper regualtion. When I do buy another Sabatti, and I would suggest every potential buyer do the same, I intend to do so only after I personally examine it, to be sure that the muzzle crowns have not been ground, abused, in this way. Since writing the above, I now am convinced that Cabelas and Sabatti have stopped this muzzle grinding practice, so if one runs across any of them now, they are certainly old stock; not newer stock. I have found no other problems with Sabatti double rifles, and have found a lot of positive things about them. I would not hesitate to buy another, but, of course, I am not an average buyer, since I have no fear of re-regulating, working on, upgrading a rifle, etc., thus have no need for Cabelas or any gunsmith having to work on my rifles. If a buyer lacks these abilities, they are in a different boat than I, so they may not want to buy one. I would say that it would be best to carefully examine a potential rifle you are considering, including how well it shoots. What I have said applies only to the deluxe big bore version; not to the smaller less expensive model in .45-70 and 9.3x74R, as I have not examined any of these cheaper model. I do have various other makes of classic old double rifles in the 9.3x74R chambering and larger casliber; I do love that 9.3x74R caliber; no wonder it is so popular and well liked in Europe! It has to be one of the top three all time best German calibers ever developed by them. I fully agree with comment by Jumbo "DG PH in RSA, who says he has one and it is great"; they are! If the Sabatti prices go up (I think they may, as prices already seem to be rising on some of them), and/or if Cabelas stops bringing them in for resale (which I think they may, as they seem to be trying hard to sell off present stock of them, and they don't seem to be bring in any or many new ones now), this would be a serious loss for those of us who love double rifles.


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #235784 - 19/09/13 06:39 AM

Anybody who butchers a DR to regulate it like this
deserve a good kicking as it shows they are more
interested in the sale than the customer.



Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:42 PM)


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gungadoug
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235789 - 19/09/13 09:34 AM

Report-- Went to the range today, armed with 2 factory loads, and several cast ones- the Sab will not keep both barrels on paper at 50, with anything I tried! Shot about the same with all- R was 4" low and 4" right, L when I finally found it was 12" left, and 6" low. So, back it goes- kinda a shame, because it really fit me! No sign of the Dremel regulation on this one, although there was one where I got this! They are still out there for sale new! Guess I'll keep looking- would like a 45-70 double, heck, I can shoot it cheaper than a 22 if it would regulate!
Doug


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: gungadoug]
      #235791 - 19/09/13 09:52 AM


"the Sab will not keep both barrels on paper at 50, with anything I tried!"

Wow


We know they switched targets and put dodgy targets with
other guns. That was proved.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235818 - 20/09/13 03:47 AM

500 Nitro: "Anybody who butchers a DR to regulate it like this
deserve a good kicking as it shows they are more
interested in the sale than the customer."

The truth, according to Mr. Sabatti, one of the owners of the Italian firm, in an interview done in Germany: The first initial large Sabatti double rifle order from the Florida, U.S.A. importer, FOR Cabelas, the U.S. firm that had contract with importer to be the only U.S. retailer of Sabatti double rifles for the first two years, said that the reason the muzzle grinding issue happened, was because they (Sabatti) were forced into a situation of filling that very large first order within a specific time span, or lose the complete order (Cabelas wanted them by specific date, or did not want order filled), so Sabatti, mistakenly chose to fill the order, obviously taking shortcuts to do so, specifically opting to muzzle grind in a vain attempt to "steer" the bullets for final regulation tuning. Mr. Sabatti said that they would never do such a foolish thing again, for doing so damages their reputation, and they lose a lot of business over the long run. So, it was s foolish business decision, to meet demand from inpatient wealthy business customer that caused the problem that to this day hurts the business, for those of you who delight in seeing this happen to such firms making such bad business decisions.

Naturally, there are still some of the bad Sabatti rifles still around, waiting for unwary buyers, and also being used by the few Sabatti haters around who clearly delight in bashing the name, but there are considerably more good, well regulated ones around too, making their owners happy. My three are in that category. Bottom line, buyers beware; look before you buy. Cabelas has been more than happy to accept returned rifles that customers are not happy with.


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500Nitro
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Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #235819 - 20/09/13 03:51 AM


drjack

Yes, I knew of the reason.

"was because they (Sabatti) were forced into a situation of filling that very large first order within a specific time span, or lose the complete order (Cabelas wanted them by specific date, or did not want order filled), so Sabatti, mistakenly chose to fill the order, obviously taking shortcuts to do so,"

is exactly what I said here
"as it shows they are more interested
in the sale than the customer."


They should have had the balls to stand up to Cabelas
and I bet you Cabelas wish they had done.


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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: let's talk about Sabatti [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #235821 - 20/09/13 04:10 AM

500 Nitro: "We know they switched targets and put dodgy targets with
other guns. That was proved."

We don't "know" that. What are the facts to "prove" this? I have never heard or seen anything like that happen to any customer in U.S., from Cabelas, the exclusive dealer. The targets have the gun caliber, the cartridge type used in regulation, the gun serial number, etc. written with pen at the bottom of the each target. Any defacing of that information, or any targets with that bottom section of target missing, should be suspect of tampering. Any target switching that may have happened, had to have been done by the gun dealer; not be the maker or by the U.S. importer; it could have happened, by accident, by some dealers outside the U.S., I think? How often has it happened in Australia, and who switched the targets? Happening once does not prove anything. Happening only a few times, especially if happening only in one or few countries, says a lot more than what some people may claim. Here again, we have some people "stretching," facts, in a vain attempt to discredit the make.


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