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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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z375
.224 member


Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query
      #234787 - 28/08/13 06:31 AM

I've recently stumbled across a gorgeous A. Hollis 12 bore rifle with external hammers and 2.5" chambers sr. no. 30908, the bores are pristine and have invisible rifling, quarter rib with three leaves marked '50, 100, 200 & 300' front sight is a blade with a silver bead along with a folding moon night sight, the weapon seems to have seen very little use as there is absolutely no sign of wear on the barrels or the wood, it has never been tampered with nor retouched in any manner, a few scratches on the wood, but nothing serious, mostly due to mishandling at the local police armory. The weapon is nearly identical to the one owned by a member 'MotelAlpha' here on NE with the exception of the doll's head and the engraving, it bears exactly the same proof marks too. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=232175&an=0&page=1#Post232175

Now here's the dilemma, the right barrel has a small dent at 2 o'clock about 8" ahead of the chambers and there is a faint shadow visible inside the bore, you have to look pretty hard to find the shadow though. The question is, can this dent be removed or should I just pass this one up, its a really pretty stick and I've been looking very hard to get one in this condition, but this dent thing is really putting me in a quandary! All suggestions, opinions are welcome!!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: z375]
      #234789 - 28/08/13 06:47 AM

If a small dent, I'd buy it if the price was right
AND all other things being equal that need to be right
when buying something like a gun / DR - which by the
way you have worded your post seems to be the case.



Edited by 500Nitro (28/08/13 08:37 AM)

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 737
Loc: West UK
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234792 - 28/08/13 08:35 AM

As 500 Nitro says, buy it if the price is right, a competent gunsmith used to working on DR should have no problem raising a small dent

TH44

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: TH44]
      #234822 - 29/08/13 04:58 AM

Call around and find a good solid price quote on this kind of repair.
Factor that against the price of purchase.
Budget for expensive complications such as transport, lisencing and load development (depending on where you live etc) and make your offer.

If the price is right go for it.
I'd love to see photos!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: tinker]
      #234824 - 29/08/13 05:50 AM


z375

It helps if you put your LOCATION in your profile.

It makes it a lot easier to point people in the right direction.

With everyone on this forum from different countries,
someone might be able to help or point you to someone
who can give you a professional opinion.

Anyway, good luck with it and
as above, post photos if you get it.

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z375
.224 member


Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234853 - 29/08/13 09:29 PM

500Nitro,

I'm located in India, as you may know there are a lot of little gems floating around and they do pop up to the surface from time to time! I really would like to buy this Hollis but I'm worried whether the little dent in the right tube will create issues, that is about the only reason holding me back from buying this gun. Load development is not a problem, I had developed a load for a buddy's 12ga H&H Paradox that gave a little less than 2" at 100 yards with the 740-grain CBE Paradox Fosbery slug. I am also working on a Greener 12ga bore gun project but it has been shelved for now, the Hollis would be a real dandy to use and learn what the slugs are capable of at different ranges, I've always been fascinated with bore rifles and here's my chance to own a really nice double. Has anyone here ever done this sort of repair before? I mean, dealing with a smoothbore would be a helluva lot easier, but with rifling in the bore, tackling a dent would be a different animal, just my guess.

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CommandCar
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: z375]
      #234873 - 30/08/13 11:59 AM

What does the Hollis weigh?

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Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: CommandCar]
      #234876 - 30/08/13 12:52 PM

"it has never been tampered with nor retouched in any manner,"

'MotelAlpha's gun looks to me like it has definitely been re case color hardened - therefore refinished.

Edited by Nordmann (30/08/13 12:57 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: Nordmann]
      #234878 - 30/08/13 01:43 PM


"'MotelAlpha's gun looks to me like it has definitely been re case color hardened - therefore refinished. "

I'd agree with that.

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z375
.224 member


Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: CommandCar]
      #234922 - 31/08/13 06:45 AM

Well, its a bit on the light side for a 12bore rifle, 7.5 lbs is what i'm guessing.

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: z375]
      #234960 - 01/09/13 04:00 AM

Quote:

Well, its a bit on the light side for a 12bore rifle, 7.5 lbs is what i'm guessing.



It is not a rifle it is a 3 to 3.5 dram ball and shotgun. Weight is just about perfect.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: gatsby]
      #234967 - 01/09/13 11:16 AM

Right, this Hollis is designed to use more or less standard Paradox type loads most likely. Although the 200 and 300 yard sight leaves are somewhat confusing.

Edited by CommandCar (01/09/13 11:18 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: CommandCar]
      #234969 - 01/09/13 11:32 AM


Don't under estimate how accurate some of these
Ball and shot / Paradox guns can be.

They aren't spray and pray type guns.

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234975 - 01/09/13 01:14 PM

Quote:


Don't under estimate how accurate some of these
Ball and shot / Paradox guns can be.

They aren't spray and pray type guns.



Yes, I have personal experience with the accuracy potential of Paradox type guns. I should have been more specific: I recall reading the Fosbery Slug tended to loose stability in flight at about 150 yards. So the Hollis with the long range may actually have been regulated with some other slug. Early Manton's catalogs have Ball & Shot ammunition loaded with a full bore slug that has a large cavity (air space) within. Was this the type of slug that performed at 200 to 300 yards? Maybe someone can help here?

There is one other possiblilty, which is the extra leaves were added for marketing purposes!?

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: CommandCar]
      #234977 - 01/09/13 03:37 PM

Certainly possible with the more aerodynamic slugs, at least in a Fosbery gun. Holland's thinking was that the ball and shotgun should be limited to 150yds, although their own testing seem to show accuracy far beyond this range.

This load dropped to subsonic and still proved capable at 300yds.




It also could be Holland's main competitor Westley Richards had a more reliable gun/cartridge for longer range shooting in the rifled choke guns. In taking a stance that 150yds was a limit with paradox type guns they would not have to argue the point of whose system was better at longer ranges.

As to the invisible rifled system, could be it shot as well as the rifled choke guns and if not you would still want your gun to be equipped similar to your competition.
Not first hand experience with the invisible system but reliable hearsay; they don't seem to pattern well. I hope to give one a try someday.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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z375
.224 member


Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: CommandCar]
      #235085 - 04/09/13 06:11 AM

CommandCar,

The proof marks denote regulation with the 750 grain bullet and Cordite, its also stamped with an 'S&B' which I believe, stands for Shot & Ball, also there is a '12C' within a diamond and the 1 1/8oz shot weight proof mark too. I'm hoping to seal the deal on this 12ga hammer by next monday. Will post pics here if I do! Fingers crossed!

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: z375]
      #235086 - 04/09/13 06:16 AM


Good luck.

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: z375]
      #235087 - 04/09/13 06:43 AM

Quote:

CommandCar,

The proof marks denote regulation with the 750 grain bullet and Cordite, its also stamped with an 'S&B' which I believe, stands for Shot & Ball, also there is a '12C' within a diamond and the 1 1/8oz shot weight proof mark too. I'm hoping to seal the deal on this 12ga hammer by next monday. Will post pics here if I do! Fingers crossed!



Standard marks for a 2 1/2" chambered ball and shot gun from 1050fps to 1200, most likely the former. Should be fun.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: gatsby]
      #235088 - 04/09/13 06:47 AM

Can't wait to see it!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CommandCar
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: gatsby]
      #235089 - 04/09/13 06:58 AM

Quote:

Certainly possible with the more aerodynamic slugs, at least in a Fosbery gun. Holland's thinking was that the ball and shotgun should be limited to 150yds, although their own testing seem to show accuracy far beyond this range.

This load dropped to subsonic and still proved capable at 300yds.



Gatsby,

The target you posted described the bullet as Nickle Based. I think this is the slug I recalled from the Manton's catalog, ca1930 (I if I remember correctly). The metal base looks like a giant gas check and there is a air cavity within the lead slug. I'll look it up again when I get a chance.

BTW, wad the target produced by a Holland?

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: CommandCar]
      #235093 - 04/09/13 08:53 AM

The target was shot at Wembley by Holland. Note the use of a 2 3/4" case denoting higher working pressures than the 2 1/2" case.

When was the Hollis made?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: gatsby]
      #235094 - 04/09/13 09:06 AM

Found the piece from Manton's 1925 catalog. It is the Nitro Paradox between the Paradox and Fauneta rounds.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f...692/index4.html

Tough to see here, but the slug is hollow with a metal base.

I think by the 20's everyone's ball & shot guns were made under some form of the expired Holland patent. No more invisible rifling, oval bores, etc.

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z375
.224 member


Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: CommandCar]
      #238745 - 06/12/13 12:01 AM

Folks! The deal is done! The gun will finally be home at the end of this month! Thank you all for your valuable input!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: z375]
      #238746 - 06/12/13 12:09 AM



z375

Good to hear.

Post some photos when you get a chance.

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: A. Hollis 12 bore rifle query [Re: 500Nitro]
      #238783 - 06/12/13 05:48 AM

Have you gotten some shells loaded yet?
This will be a nice yet belated Christmas gift to yourself!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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