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savage458
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Loc: Indiana, USA
Demiblock , Shoelump or ?
      #234618 - 24/08/13 07:39 AM

I was reading Double gun Journal and found myself wondering !
One article was describing how double rifle barrels reacts to bullets taking rifling, and how barrel's reacts to the BENDING force ? It states that barrel's flex UP and to the side, putting preasure on gusseted area of the water table-standing breach area ?
The other article reads that barrels are recoiling and bending DOWN trying to OPEN action ?
Whats going on, WHAT is REALLY happening ?
Can somebody explain this in SIMPLE words, and back it up with pictures or video clip ?


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234619 - 24/08/13 07:45 AM

The reason for asking this Q's are ..
How does Monoblock or Demiblock rate in shotgun to DR conversion ? Which one is more desirable ?
The force that is in play at the moment of bullet starting to take rifling, must be HUGE ? I need to know before i start my first build. Thanks to all


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234621 - 24/08/13 08:37 AM

Monoblocking has been done for a very long time now, having been initially tested and proven a long time ago by Beretta; time has proven that it works and works well. However, it does have at least two drawbacks: 1. The final product has a distinct seam line between the joint of the monoblock and the barrels, and 2, one has to twist barrels into monoblock, if partially threading them into monoblock, or has to insert them into monoblock, if simply soldering them full length into monoblock. Regarding #1, with skill, as explained in W. Ellis Brown's book, converting double shotguns to double rifles, one can peen and blend monoblock/barrel seam so that it is invisible, or nearly so. The British and some others, have learned to mini TIG welding, to weld up the seam, so it is no longer an issue. Regarding #2, for double rifles, it is always desirable to have firing pins as close together as practical, so when using monoblock system, one can't get firing pins any closer than monoblock dictates; shoe lump, on the other hand, allows aforementioned seam to not be an issue at all, and allows distance between firing pins to be closer than with monoblock. Ellis Brown has, indeed, been doing some of the shoe lump system, he has told me, since writing his book, and intends putting some of that new information in 3rd edition of his book, if he ever finishes that edition. The shoe lump system is adequately strong too, suitable for double rifle conversions, as it has been used through history by some of the finest gun makers ever. I took gunsmithing class in Tech College, from W. Ellis Brown, prior to his writing book on same subject, and have done many such conversions successfully. If you read his book, you will understand and appreciate many of these details discussed here. He describes the forces involved in firing double rifle, on action and barrels, in his book. You state that article in DGJ states that "barrel's flex UP and to the side, putting preasure on gusseted area of the water table-standing breach area ?" They do! The right barrel recoils up and to the right, while the left barrel recoils up and to the left. At the same time, in each case, the forces are trying to open the action; many other forces are involved at the same time--again, look at Brown's book.

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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #234634 - 24/08/13 12:07 PM

Doubleriflejack

Thanks for your cent's worth. I still don't agree with that statement.. barrels start to recoil up and to the side while bullet is still in the barrel, and same time bending a little in UP direction ! That reaction then means they are trying to CLOSE breech tighter, right ? THEN, how can
that same reaction at same time, try to OPEN action ? Makes no sense to me, LOGIC tells us different.


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Rhodes
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234639 - 24/08/13 04:16 PM

Quote:

Doubleriflejack

Thanks for your cent's worth. I still don't agree with that statement.. barrels start to recoil up and to the side while bullet is still in the barrel, and same time bending a little in UP direction ! That reaction then means they are trying to CLOSE breech tighter, right ? THEN, how can
that same reaction at same time, try to OPEN action ? Makes no sense to me, LOGIC tells us different.




When you fire the right barrel the breech tries to open on that side however the barrels pivot left in the horizontal plane around the hinge pin so the breech closes more tightly on the left side (the opposite side). This is where a top rib extension comes in handy.

In the vertical plane the barrels pivot up and down around the axis of the hinge pin so when you fire either side the force tries to separate the barrels from the breech face (equal and opposite). Because the barrels can only rotate around the hinge pin the result is that the action stretches slightly and tries to open. This is where double locking underlugs and a third bite are useful.

It is the recoil that lifts the muzzle up and to the right when the right barrel is fired as the rifle pivots around the point where the stock meets the shoulder.

Just different vertors of force (magnitude and direction) combined to give a resultant. Thats the way I look at it.


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Rhodes]
      #234648 - 24/08/13 10:29 PM

Rhodes

Thanks, that was the most logical point-expl. that i ever heard. I agree with that, and now i KNOW, why CHAPUIS makes their DR with double hinge-pin lugs. Maybe that is why i don't feel barrels twisting
when i shoot it ? You think same ?


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Rhodes]
      #234649 - 24/08/13 10:44 PM

Rhodes

What is differance between "Shoelump" and "Demiblock" ? I saw Shoelump brazing with Silver solder paste, in one of Factory adds VIDEO's, so i understand that. My AYA shotgun have marking on left barrel "Demiblock" and yet, the underlugs are made in two halves... there is silver brazing line in
center between lugs, just like my BRNO-49 has, yet BRNO is true "Choperlump" sistem ! Why do Spanish mark AYA shotguns.... Demiblock, and have split underlugs ? Makes no sense to me ... Shoelump is made in ONE peace ... right ?


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234650 - 24/08/13 10:57 PM

Savage458,
I may be wrong about this but this is the way I understand the forces being created by one action of firing a gun. When the round first goes off the pressure created inside the gun is going to try and open the action around the hingepin. A crossbolt will help here to keep the action closed. This reaction only lasts for a few milliseconds. The the gun starts to recoil and to rotate somewhat around it's center of gravity which is in between the barrels. The recoiling of the gun is now trying to close the action tighter as the barrels move upward. The rotation of whichever barrel has been fired will try and rotate the gun in the direction away from the center of gravity of the gun. The backwards recoil is distributed to the stock of the gun and now starts it to rotating upwards around your shoulder pocket because the recoil is more than your shoulder can handle. All it does is to slow down the recoil and redirect it in the only direction left for it to go, upwards. The more drop to the stock from the center line of the bores, the more upward movement you get with any given load. I hope this helps you to understand these forces and how they apply to shooting your gun. Bob


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Rhodes
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234653 - 24/08/13 11:55 PM

Quote:

Rhodes

now i KNOW, why CHAPUIS makes their DR with double hinge-pin lugs. Maybe that is why i don't feel barrels twisting
when i shoot it ? You think same ?




I haven't seen the chapuis / verney-carron settup but I would imagine that each underlug is closer to the centre line of each barrel so there would be less tendency for the barrels to pivot left and right compared to the traditional double having the lug positioned in the middle between the barrels?

Demi-bloc is another name for chopper-lump so your Aya and your Bruno are both chopper-lump.

Heym use shoe-lump barrels on their double rifles. You might find some pic's or promo video on their site or if you google it. The Heym rep posted some good pic's over on AR showing some of the machining and jointing process.

Also there is a poster on here by the name of Alex Beer. He was Australia's very own double rifle maker. If you do a search you will find some pic's and info he posted on jointing shoe-lump barrels. I prefer it because you end up with a nicer profile on the barrels. A nice straight section around the chambers for the length of the water table before the barrels start to taper down to their smaller diameter. If I ever have a crack at making a double I'll be trying the shoe-lump method.


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Rhodes]
      #234682 - 25/08/13 09:06 PM

Rhodes

Yes, i also like shoe-lump process of assembling DR barrels. The barrels are one peace each.\, and it only takes one set-up to braze them to the RIB and lump-plate. But what do they use to braze them ?
As i see its some kind of Silver-Paste solder, but at what temperature ? Hi 1,200F.degrees or lower
500-600F. degrees ? I saw Heym and Sabatti videos shoving their process, and the LUMPs never got RED HOT so it means that its done in LOWER temp. 400-600 degrees ! What do you think, did you ask anybody about that ?


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Rhodes
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234773 - 27/08/13 05:58 PM

savage458

Silver solder. At least we call it silver solder over here, I believe you guy's call it brazing over there. Heated to 1200F. Here are some links to a couple of older threads with some useful info.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....rt=all&vc=1

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....rt=all&vc=1

If you do a search on alexbeer and ronvella and a few others you will find some very useful info. I'm only a messenger.

I see Alex Beer is active on the forum again so he might chime in with some advice.



Alex if you are reading this do you mind if I ask you a question. I noticed in your previous posts that you used some Bohler products for your actions, mono-blocks and shoe-lumps. EN36A steel and M238 steel. Can you tell us which product you used for each? Also did you machine these out of the hardened steel? or did you buy it annealed, machine it and then harden it?

Thanking you in advance.

Rhodes


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alexbeer
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Rhodes]
      #234777 - 27/08/13 09:25 PM

Hello Rhodes,

The two links you rounded up and posted are exactly the two I would have put there for savage458. Thank you.

I too preferred the shoe-lump, it allows the use of round tubes, is aesthetically pleasing, and when done correctly it is far more than just adequate strength wise. As I have said before, if a properly done shoe-lump fails, at that very moment it will be the very least of your worries.

EN36A was used for the action body. It is a case hardening steel that I used to get in its annealed state. It machines well and can be worked with normal metalworking tools (that are in good condition). Once the action body was formed and tightly fitted it was sent to a professional hardener. As it is a steel of known properties, most any professional hardening business can case harden it correctly. Obviously when it comes back from the hardening it will need some work to re-fit any slight deforming or warpage caused by the hardening process, but this is normal practice.

M238 I used to use for the shoe-lump. From memory it was supplied in a hard state but it could be relatively easily worked with sharp new files, hacksaws etc and of course carbide mill cutters. It is a very tough hard wearing steel that worked well for the shoe-lump as when it was all fitted and finished, it didn’t need hardening.

The silver brazing wire I used was a Bohler product, UTP306M. It had a 55% silver content, flowed at 650 C (1202 F) and had a tensile strength of 430 MPA (62,366 PSI)

This is how I used to do it,

Hope this helps

Best
ALEX

--------------------

Details matter!


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: alexbeer]
      #234795 - 28/08/13 09:51 AM

Rhodes, Alex and all friends !

Thank you for going out of your way to help me, my gratitude to all friends here.


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Rhodes
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234799 - 28/08/13 12:44 PM

Hi Alex

Thankyou kindly for responding so quickly. You are a wealth of knowledge and very generous.

It's interesting and very handy that M238 can be machined easy enough in it's hardened state and it makes the whole process that much easier by not having to send it out for hardening. That was the only real question I had after reading through your older threads. Thanks again.


savage458, no problem, I'm learning too.

Cheers
Rhodes


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Rhodes]
      #234825 - 29/08/13 06:23 AM

Rhodes

Thanks to nice people on this forum, we all can learn ART of DR making, or converting shotguns to DR.
ALEX... i see that you probably make your "shoelumps" two at the time and then split them in CENTER of the bored holes ? If i was brave enough, i could try to do it also. I see it would be possible to set-up ROTARY-TABLE with JIG holding lump's in HORIZONTAL plane, (Mill head set horizontal) then mill two holes with OFF-SET of a few degrees to get them to CROSS at given point. How many points do you set your set-up, and at what point do they cross ... distance from muzzle ? If you mill ONE at the time then is setting-up Rotary table same ? THANKS ALEX


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: alexbeer]
      #234830 - 29/08/13 12:13 PM

ALEXBEER

Thanks for all info. I also asked more Q's...in replay to Rhodes, addressed to you, so please check it out and answer when you find some free time. Thanks again, i am trying to learn all i can before i start my shotgun to DR conversion.... and i am sure you know why !


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Huvius
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234834 - 29/08/13 12:51 PM

All very informative.
I wonder, though, what do the gents here with experience in building doubles think of building a single barrel gun as a first go?
I am thinking a conversion on a single barrel trap gun may serve to hone the skill of soldering etc. without the complication of regulation.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Huvius]
      #234854 - 29/08/13 09:59 PM

Huvius,
You can do it that way but I don't think it would be worth it. Regulation is not that hard to learn if you look at it logically. I will send you a P.M. with some tips. Bob


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Shotgunlover
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #234919 - 31/08/13 05:06 AM

Hi all, my first post here.

Re what happens on firing a double rifle is a bit of a mystery and the explanations do not seem to match experience 100 per cent.

Look up pipe guns etc on youtube and there are clips showing totally unlocked systems holding together during firing. Apparently the friction between a shotgun shell and the "barrel" is strong enough to keep both together during recoil. In one case where the "barrel" mass is too much for the friction bond the cartridge does come out, flinging back the "bolt". This is not to suggest that the same happens in a rifle but it does contradict the long held notion that the cartridge head acts alone on the breech face.

Then there is the emphasis on the lock up and value of multiple locking points. The Chapuis has no central action bridge, ie no fitting on the circle, no top bite of any kind, and experience has shown that it does manage with heavy calibers.The Winchester Model 21 has a simple lockup and it also seems to hold up well.

We have not seen any analysis of the Poisson effect in break open guns. Thick walled cylinders show radial expansion and axial contraction when under pressure. And naturally there is rapid recovery after such an expansion-elongation phase. This might partially explain the results from old tests re the benefits of top fasteners and the flexing of the bar.

Some people have written about how they shot break open shotguns that were unlocked or had the locking bits removed. Assuming the reports were truthful, the fact that these "experiments" did not mention any tendency for the guns to open on firing, show that the forces developing might stress the action in ways different from those assumed.

If only we had some hi-speed film of the action during firing!

--------------------
Shotgunlover


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alexbeer
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: savage458]
      #234931 - 31/08/13 09:40 AM

Hello savage458

Interesting thought to make two shoe-lumps together then cut them in half, but no, not the way I used to do them. To cut the barrel beds in my shoe-lumps, I made up a one inch diameter bar 14 inches long, center-drilled on one end, and with a 1/4" square hole through it cross ways at about the 7 inch mark, into which I fitted a cutting tip and a lock screw. This cutting tip is adjustable so the correct radius can be set to suit the barrel diameter. After roughing out the barrel troughs in the mill, I put the bar in the lathe (approx 2" of the bar are put into the 4 jaw chuck and dialed in to as close to zero run-out as possible, and the live center in the center drill hole in the other end of the bar) Then holding the shoe-lump in my milling attachment on my lathe I could true up the troughs. Using the milling attachment I would set the initial convergence into the shoe-lump as well. Still had to smoke in the barrel/trough joint with files etc to make the fit perfect though.
It is basically a horizontal mill/glorified boring bar.

In regard to how much convergence, This is not gospel, it is how I did it, some of my basic findings as follows:
In a 470/500 caliber rifle of an acceptable and reasonable weight, with the centers of the breech around one inch apart, the barrels are set to converge at around 33 feet. With 26” barrels, this put the muzzle centers approx 120-130 thou closer together than the breech. I found for my work this was a very good starting point.
This equates to approximately 5 thou “taper” per inch.

So hypothetically, if the shoe-lump is three inches long, there needs to be 15 thou taper in total. Because there are two barrels, 15 thou divided by two equals 7.5 thou convergence toward center on each side.

The last 500NE double I did had 26" barrels and was 1.025” C to C at the breech and after regulating it, it finished up measuring 0.900” C to C at the muzzles, equaling 125 thou convergence. This rifle weighed at 11-3/4 lbs and it would put 4 shots 2x R/L into 1” at 50 yards.

There are too many variables to try to list and very few absolutes, but from my workshop notes, here’s a quick approximate guide for setting a few different initial barrel convergences, provided the rifle will be an acceptable weight for the chosen caliber.

Smaller calibers:
Working on around 930 to 950 thou between centers at breech and 26” barrels, these calibers need to be about the following measurements closer C to C at the muzzles.
7x57/303 - 35 to 45 thou
300H&H - 60 to 70 thou

Larger calibers:
Working on around one inch between centers at breech and 26” barrels.
9.3x74R/375 - 80 to 90 thou
450 - 100 to 110 thou
470/500 - 120 to 130 thou

I hope this all makes sense.

Best
ALEX

--------------------

Details matter!


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: alexbeer]
      #234935 - 31/08/13 11:28 AM

ALEX

Yes NOW IT DOES MAKE SENSE.Thanks for taking time to answer my Q's, its very clear to me how its PROPERLY done. I see now how important this first set-up, for convergence is.
Did you ever think of using PASTE-SILVER SOLDER to do shoelump ? Your wire brazing works as perfectly as it can, but i am just wondering .. why are Heym and others using it ?


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Rhodes
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #234945 - 31/08/13 06:22 PM

Hi shotgunlover,

You raise some good examples but you are talking shotgun shells which have straight/parrallel sides with no taper. When you fire the shell the pressure expands the catridge and the straight sides grip the chamber walls. I would suggest if you oiled the shotgun cartridge before you loaded and fired it you might see a different result.

I have seen similar discussion where tests were carried out on rifle cartridges fired from an open barrel. No bolt or breech face to stop the cartridge moving backwards when fired. The straight / parrallel sided cases remained in the chamber when fired, as in your examples above. The cartridges with tapered sides (most rifle cartridges) shot out the back of the barrel as fast as the bullet shot out the front of the barrel.

Food for thought.

Cheers
Rhodes


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Shotgunlover
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Rhodes]
      #234951 - 31/08/13 09:48 PM

Rhodes,

Interesting how the taper affects the pressure on the breech face. The more I think about this the more use I see for a high speed film of the locked breech of a double during firing. Unfortunately the guys who do this kind of photogaphy concentrate on the "dramatic"shots of bullets exiting the muzzle.

--------------------
Shotgunlover


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savage458
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #234952 - 31/08/13 10:44 PM

shotgunlover

Even if we use HIGH SPEED cameras... you wouldn't be able to see CHAMBER swelling or BARREL and FACE of breech block spreading .. trying to come apart. It is so small .... it measures in MICRONS, so we might as well forget about filming it.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: alexbeer]
      #234953 - 31/08/13 10:51 PM

Axel,
I have a question for you and I would like your expert opinion. First of all, is there any bennefit to using the cutting bar like you did over using a chucking reamer to scoop out the troughs? One reason for my question is that I have a milling attachment for my lathe that attaches to my carriage. The vice for the milling attachment has graduations so the item being milled can be tilted to the right or left off of dead straight. Under these circumstances it seems to me that I could effectively use a chucking reamer of the proper size to do this job.
I do realise that your tool, being adjustable, would work for more and different sized shoe lumps. If I use the reamers to do these jobs it seems like the troughs would come out at the proper sizes and be somewhat smoother in the milled areas. Is there any advantage to leaving the troughs slightly rough? It looks to me like the smoother and the closer the fit up, the better the solder or brazed joint would be.
I have found by reaming out alot of monoblocks that the convergence angle of the tubes is about 1 to 1.5 degrees off dead straight for each side. This equates to roughly 2 to 3 degrees of combined convergence for each monoblock. Some people are still trying to claim that there is no built in convergence in the barrels/monoblock, but I know from experience that there is. You have to reset the angle on the holding fixture when changing over from doing one side to the next. I hope this puts that old myth down forever. Building these is hard enough without all this false information being spread around confusing people.
While we are in the myth killing mode, we might as well go on and get rid of the myth that you have to firmly hold the forend supported in your left hand and pull the gun back into your shoulder while regulating or shooting in the sights. If you don't believe this, go to Utube and watch the regulators that work for the big double rifle companies doing their shooting in. In many cases they don't even touch the forend by rather they leave it supported by a padded front fixture so that the gun can freely recoil without any hand interference from them holding it. Bob


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