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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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lancaster
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16 ga Vogelbüchse
      #234349 - 16/08/13 11:08 PM

do you looking for a 16 ga single shot rifle that is comfortabel to shoot with any load you can get into? here it is: a so called Vogelbüchse a special made target rifle in 16 ga weighting 9,2 kg!
sold by Burgsmüller once this Rifle have a enlarged Mauser 71 action












http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4530729

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #234360 - 17/08/13 07:13 AM

Very cool!!






Thanks for posting this!

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Oldbrit
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #234361 - 17/08/13 07:40 AM

Quote:

here it is: a so called Vogelbüchse a special made target rifle in 16 ga weighting 9,2 kg!



9.2 kg - that's 20 lbs plus! How was this thing shot? Was it from a stand?

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Ash
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: Oldbrit]
      #234377 - 17/08/13 10:26 PM

As said above, thanks also for posting this! Not something you see every day, or every other day!

Should enter some modern competitions with it

Let us know how it shoots if you got it.

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lancaster
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: Ash]
      #234393 - 18/08/13 04:11 AM

the Bird rifles are very rare and you see them only from time to time. I would say most of them are chambered for the 40 mm long brass cases the so called Kugelhülsen




heavy Mauser Star, Bird or Target Rifle in 20,16,24, 28 or 32 ga


heavy mauser target rifle, so called Bird Rifle in 16 and 20ga




the rifle was shoot from a simple rest on the Adlerscheibe/eagle target

http://www.google.de/imgres?q=adler+schi...&ved=1t:429,r:55,s:0,i:253&tx=46&ty=60

http://www.wittenberger-schuetzengilde.de/images/20070414173706.jpg

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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Ash
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #258420 - 31/12/14 05:45 PM

Any more of these come up for sale since this one? I find myself coming back to this thread with regularity.

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lancaster
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: Ash]
      #258423 - 31/12/14 06:35 PM

Vogelbüchse are rare and you dont see them for sale any month. probably many were only in the possesion of shooting clubs and they need only one rifle because anyone shoot with the same rifle in competition.

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HB01
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #258460 - 02/01/15 01:08 AM

I looked 3-4 year for my Vogelbuchse. I was orginally looking for a wall gun (to hang on my wall), but came across several Vogelbuchse. My guess is that Gunbroker will have one about every other year.

Question: I have a gun very similar to Lancaster's although the maker's name isn't visible. The sights are very fine. Mine is 16ga and the chamber gauge says the chamber is 2.5". I don't reload shotshells. Would Brenneke's 2.5" slugs be safe in this gun? thanks

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lancaster
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: HB01]
      #258461 - 02/01/15 01:27 AM

very good question
Vogelbüchse are build very strong so probably yes but...

you can load 16 ga Magtech brass cases with blackpowder and a suitable roundball.

there is no reloading equipment necessary

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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kuduae
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #258464 - 02/01/15 03:22 AM

Regardless of retailer, most of these Vogelbüchsen on simplified and enlarged M71 type actions were actually made by Carl Bauer, Meininger Str., Zella-Mehlis. You may find a C.B. mark under the barrel, close to the proof marks.

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Ash
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: HB01]
      #258468 - 02/01/15 07:39 AM

May I ask how much they go for?
I've found one in 12 bore for 2800 euro

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HB01
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: Ash]
      #258469 - 02/01/15 08:02 AM

Thanks, I'll look for proof marks.

I paid $800 or $900 for mine, it was on the lower end of what I've seen. I've seen them priced for $1500 and ~$3000k. In my experience, the hardest part of finding one is knowing what to search for in the auctions. Usually the title will start off with something like "17 lb single shot 16ga". Most folks don't know what they have.

Don't take my make comments for gospel. I have about 4 years of experience knowing what they are and I acquired mine a year ago.

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John303
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: HB01]
      #258471 - 02/01/15 08:45 AM

If you go to Mauser Photos & Archive > Mauser Pics. you will see a couple of pics. of a Remo 98 Mauser
converted,as in re-barreled,for this knd of competition. Looks like a 16 musket barrel was used to do this conversion. --- John

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Ash
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: HB01]
      #258473 - 02/01/15 11:05 AM

Feel free to post some pics here, mate. I'd love to see it. If you need a hand uploading just send me an email, it's in my profile. But I won't be home until the 15th.

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Ash
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: Ash]
      #258694 - 06/01/15 04:01 PM

Was waiting to get home to post this, but that's set back another week so here's the link. I was going to translate and upload the article but I can't now. Perhaps Lancaster will be so kind? I'm sure he'll enjoy this

http://www.sebastianus-stammheim.de/ueberuns/historisch.html

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Tom_H
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: Ash]
      #265720 - 31/05/15 01:44 AM

Lancaster. One of those rifles was at the Vintage Cup in New York this past August. It was missing the extractor so I guessed as to its design and fabricated a new one for the owner. Can you possibly post a picture of the one on your rifle which appears identical to the one that I worked on? Curious to see how close I came

Thanks

Tom

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lancaster
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: Tom_H]
      #265725 - 31/05/15 03:52 AM

sorry, was not my rifle
just post the pics for entertainment

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.
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rigbymauser
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #265726 - 31/05/15 06:07 AM

http://www.sebastianus-stammheim.de/ueberuns/historisch.html

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Ash
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: rigbymauser]
      #265736 - 31/05/15 10:43 AM

Rigby, good link but it was posted months ago 3 posts above yours :P

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DarylS
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: rigbymauser]
      #265737 - 31/05/15 10:44 AM

Interesting guns - BUT.

If the range in the link is the only one used for these 'interesting' guns, I question why?

22.8 meters on the slope (18.1 meters horizontal range = 19.73yards) is just under 25 yards - 24.85 yards which in my opinion is a meaningless range for the use rifles - except for perhaps low powered air guns.

Even my smooth 20 bore flintlock will put 5 patched balls into a 1" or less group, rested, of course, at that range and it has but 1 sight, the blade near the muzzle & no rear sight.

LOL - well, 4 out of 5, at any rate at 25.68 meters = 28 yards.

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buckstix
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #266389 - 14/06/15 06:25 AM

WOW .... I can't believe I missed this post for so long.

I collect these ... and ... I've been shooting them for years ... I'm still looking for a 20ga if any of you hear of one for sale. Here are mine - along with a Browning Auto for size comparison.





I even had a custom bullet made for the 16ga's .... I use it "as cast" in the 16ga ... and size it down for the 18ga. I also had 120 18ga brass shells custom made just so I could shoot that one.





I've even got extra brass if someone needs to load for his 18ga.





Here are some of the different calibers (gauges) offered for them.





And here is an assortment of "Bird" targets that are used for these events.



--------------------
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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: buckstix]
      #266405 - 14/06/15 03:43 PM

Buckstix - what are the as cast dimensions and weight on that 16ga bullet?

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lancaster
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: tinker]
      #266410 - 14/06/15 07:08 PM

old RWS catalog gives a 18,0 mm for inside brass case and 18,15mm bore diameter for the 16 gauge cats head bullet. bullet weight is given with 48,8 gramm or 751 grains for the 16 gauge.
the bullet was also available for paper shells with a 17,10mm for inside of the paper shell and the 18,15 mm of the the upper stop ring.

here is a 12 gauge for sale in germany rigbymauser looking for reasons not to by it just now. its a very nice gun but for 2500 euro not a exactly a steal. come with a lot of reloading tools also:







got one of your 18 gauge cases just yesterday buckstix, jose from spain ask me to trade it against my own 11,5x50 PWM/Chassepot wildcat.
I was knowing the 18 ga only by old catalogs before

and when its not so hard to find 14 ga paper shells or a brass cases from time to time this is very rare. was your lathe turned brass made by RMC? reminds on lathe turned 577 Snider brass.
the 57mm long case is very unusual but with old guns everything is possible. common is to find it was chambered for the 63- 65mm or the short 40mm long brass




12 ga, 14 ga, 16 ga, the lathe turned 18 ga, 20 ga, 24 ga(70mm long brass) and 577 Snider made by NDFS in the 1990s





20 ga Vogelbüchsen exist, years ago I cut 20 ga, 65 mm long brass for another collector to 40mm for his rifle. he had a cats head bullet mould for his 20 ga. I was wondering about.
you see it dont fit into the old paper thin 20 ga.brass maybe in you 18 ga. when it is made thin like the old cases.



the bullet diameter is in between a 20 ga and a 16 ga so this was maybe for another 18 ga.


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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #266412 - 14/06/15 08:25 PM

Hello lancaster,

Hello Tinker,

Thank you for the reply.

I would be interested in buying any molds or other reloading tools for my 16's or 18's if you have any for sale. I would also be interested in buying the 12ga. if you are not buying. But I don't know how to get it shipped into the U.S.

Yes, my cases were made for me by RMC. The heads are marked - "18GA 2-3/8 RMC"

It could be that the marking was later removed on your case.



This is the mold I designed for the 16ga. It casts a bullet about 0.678" diameter with 30:1 lead/tin and weighs 665 grains.



I use the bullet "as-cast" for the 16ga. loading.



I made a special sizing ring to resize the same bullet down to 0.658" diameter for using in the 18ga. loading.



I use Lee liquid alox for lube and dip each bullet.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: buckstix]
      #266416 - 15/06/15 01:36 AM

rigbymauser have to decide if he want this, he was the one who find it.

if not I will bring you in contact with the dealer. there is a firm in germany: Krico
http://krico.de/?language=en

krico export guns worldwide

if you dip the bullets in paraffin and fill the grease grooves this way before you resize them it will hold the lead better in form.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #266419 - 15/06/15 03:10 AM

Hello lancaster,

Thank you for the reply.

Yes, please keep me informed about buying the 12ga. rifle, or any accessories for these rifles in any caliber. I'm always looking to add to my collection, even if I don't have the rifle yet.

Here is one of my best targets with the 16ga. But some times I get hang-fires with IMR 4198 powder so now I'm trying AA5744 powder which never gives a hang-fire. I will post more results some time later this summer.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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rigbymauser
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: lancaster]
      #266422 - 15/06/15 03:31 AM


...I am thinking real hard on this one. As a guncollector such a gun is a true rarety...but as a hunter such a gun limits as it weighs like a railroad sleeper.

I would love to buy it but I am afraid once I buy it, it will just be standing in the safe doing nothing.

Lancaster:

I will pass this one to someone who see a bigger need than I have. This gun a collectors item and especially with molds, tools, leatherbag that goes with it.

When I buy a collectable vintage gun a few demands must be met. Investment, usefulness and condition. This Vogelbüchse has Investment and condition but lack usefulness.

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buckstix
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: rigbymauser]
      #266431 - 15/06/15 06:12 AM

Hello rigbymauser,

I know what you mean about usefulness. Other than "shock" value to other shooters at the range, my big cannons do not have a real practical usefulness, at least not here in the States.

But then I have NEVER been practical, and always bought what I liked, and then later grouped them into collections. So that's how I ended up with 3 of them.

Hello lancaster,

If you could guide me as to how to go about inquiring the possibility of purchasing this rifle and then imported it into the States, I would be most appreciative. If not too much additional cost is involved, I would like to add it to my group.

However, the last time I looked into importing a modern rifle from Canada, I had problems. That rifle was worth about $1000 USD. I could have purchased for about $500 USD. But then I found the importation fees would cost $1250 USD, added to it. It then made it far too much money for its value.

Maybe with an antique rifle such as this, coming from Germany, it may be less costly? I would like to find out. Any help would be appreciated.

--------------------
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TH44
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: buckstix]
      #266441 - 15/06/15 08:48 AM

Buckstix

Excellent group - do you use Magnum primers? If not, that may solve your hang fire problems.

I have used 4198 on several occasions but after the first without Magnum primers left unburnt powder everywhere I considered them a must

Good luck shooting - bore rifles are most attractive and desirable

TH44

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buckstix
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: TH44]
      #266445 - 15/06/15 09:30 AM

Hello TH44,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, F215s are Federal Large Rifle Magnum primers. I've had this hang-fire problem before using IMR 4198 in some of my other large bore cases. However, I've never had a problem with AA5744 - that's why I'm changing to that powder.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: buckstix]
      #266509 - 16/06/15 05:31 AM

Hello lancaster,

Hello rigbymauser,

It looks like the 12ga is not going to be in my future. I made a few phone calls today and the cost quoted me were ... purchase price is 2600 euroes - plus 95 euros administration - plus 350 euros shipping - plus 200 euros insurance ..... add to that $200 USD import fees - and $350 USD broker fees - and $90 USD duty would bring the total to AT LEAST $4105 USD ... with no guarentee there won't be some additional costs along the way. ... and upto 9 months time total.

That's a little too much expense for me.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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rigbymauser
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: buckstix]
      #266521 - 16/06/15 07:19 AM


Ein schönes Lied als Ersatz ein Vogelbüchse...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z9V0ukpLOw

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buckstix
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Re: 16 ga Vogelbüchse [Re: rigbymauser]
      #266528 - 16/06/15 12:16 PM

A beautiful song as a replacement for a bird gun

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"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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