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NitroSteel
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Loc: Georgia, USA
Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double?
      #233464 - 04/08/13 11:41 AM

I looked at one of these guns in Georgia (USA) today. I've not been able to find another of these anywhere on the internet for a review or a price comparison. Does anyone have experience with these guns? The sticker price was $25000, but it was offered to me at 18000 (new). I can post a link to this particular gun through an online gun site - if that is not a problem here.

I was initially looking at a Heym 88b PH in the same price range, but didn't know how this compared. I don't want to pay to much, or end up with something that is undesirable.

Please let me know what you think. Any other suggestions?

Nitrosteel

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"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne



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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233465 - 04/08/13 12:01 PM


Is this your first Double ???????

Is this it ?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Zanardini-Oxford-470NE.cfm?gun_id=100248178


Light for a 470

Looks like a European gun.

Any proof marks which would tell you where it was made ?


I think for the money you could get one of the makers guns like Heym, Merkel and others, Searcy etc.

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233466 - 04/08/13 12:21 PM

Yes, this would be my first double Yes that's it. It was made in Italy.

I didn't like the way the metal was fit to the wood (not that it wasn't the way it was intended - I just didn't like it as much as some of the others I've seen- you can see it in the pic's). Loved everything else about it - color case hardening, engraving, balance, feel, look, handling, etc.

I've handled the Merkels and liked them, handled a bunch of old English guns - liked most of them. Didn't like the Kreigoff or the Blaser. Read so much good about Heym, most it seems prefer this one over the Merkel. Haven't handled a Heym or a Searcy. It sounds like the early Searcy's maybe weren't up to par (correct me where I'm wrong - please). Don't want to screw up and buy something at a "deal" and regret it. Love the look of the new Searcy's and am not opposed to the Merkel's (less money out of pocket is good...). Not sure that I know enough about what to look for in the English guns to avoid disaster.

How are the Searcy rifles? New versus used/older Searcy? There are alot of used Searcy's floating around it seems.

I'm all ears. Thank you for your help.

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne



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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233468 - 04/08/13 01:20 PM


Don't know enough about Searcy's to know but plenty of AR rave about them so they must be good. He makes some superb stuff.

The gun you were looking at, the Wood to metal fit, it's because of the style of raised wood close to the metal
which creates a shadow in the photos.

Some gunmakers like it that way, I prefer slightly raised like the English do it but not that much.


I would have a look and get hold of a Heym and hold one.
There is another make I can't think of ATM.

Re English guns and what to look for, ask like you did here, it's the only way to learn unless you have someone on tap to provide advice.

Also, are you only after a 470 or not sure ?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233472 - 04/08/13 03:29 PM

One of the biggest claims of the benefits of a Searcy is often that it is easy to send back for repairs or fix ups. One has to keep asking why so many Searcy guns need to be sent back for repairs!!!!????

Lots floating around for sale second hand for good reasons.

Lots of promoters of Searcy's on the net. He allegedly gave some away or hefty discounts in the past to get the "exposure".

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroX]
      #233473 - 04/08/13 03:40 PM


NitroX

I don't think Searcy's go back any more than any other makes
from what we see on this forum and others.

I think people would say.

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Nordmann
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233476 - 04/08/13 04:45 PM

"I've not been able to find another of these anywhere on the internet for a review or a price comparison"

That looks like a fairly early gun.

MAPIZ do still make that exact model today, its still called "the Oxford"

http://www.zanardini.com/ita/fucile_oxford.htm

Suggest you call them and ask for their price list.

Edited by Nordmann (04/08/13 04:54 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Nordmann]
      #233477 - 04/08/13 04:59 PM


It doesn't say whether it has Ejectors or Extractors.

Any idea ?

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233480 - 04/08/13 08:46 PM

Nitrosteel, IMO, too light for a .470 and for the money you are talking you can find a Heym, just my thoughts, as NitroX says I have heard too many "going for repairs" about a certain US manufacturer, best, Mike p.s. if you can get used to the cocking lever on the Kreighoff(and a lot of profesionals in SA have), I think it is a lot of gun for the money. I bought one as a gift for my PH in .500 some years ago, he carries it everywhere

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233481 - 04/08/13 08:57 PM

It was an ejector gun and it was brand new. He said they (owner and the guy I spoke with) went to the guy's shop in Italy and picked out the wood blanks and basically had the gun built (2 identical). Both guns were in Thomasville, GA. He said it was a great gun and told me I could go look at a Heym in AL (named a store that had them in stock). He said he preferred the Italian gun over the German ones. He was very nice, professional and not down on any brand. - I just Have to KNOW what I'm getting. 18k is alot to me.

No, I'm not stuck on 470 N.E. and I've never actually shot a double rifle. I do shoot A LOT though. I do want to get one that is a common caliber - though I plan to reload for it and probably cast the bullets also. I was thinking initially 470 or 500. I'd thought about a 450/400 - which I know would be adequate for most things this gun will acfually do (get fondled and sit in my gun safe 99% of the time). I will do my best to shoot lots of North American big game with it, but am not sure I will ever end up in Africa. Something about dropping huge cartridges in the chamber and closing the vault is just awesome. Really want either the 470 or 500, but would consider others at the right price. No, I can't justify the larger ones...

He had a Cogwell and Harrison in 500 n.e. for 20k. It felt nice, had great fit and finish and I didn't see any cracks or marks on the screws (we never talked serious about price on it). It was made in 1919 (listed on the same site that someone brought out). He suggested I not get a 500 n.e. as a first double. There were lots of english doubles there, but they quickly got out of my price range.

I'm almost positive I want ejectors, don't think I'll settle on a gun without them (try to correct me if I'm wrong). I guess fill me in more on calibers, Searcy's and what to watch for on English doubles. As I said - I'm listening. You can see I've been lurking here quietly years...

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne



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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233482 - 04/08/13 09:00 PM

One thing to consider is when you come to sell it, will it be easy to sell ?

Sticking as you are with a common calibre will help.

Sticking with a known name / gun is even better and
the gun in your OP is not a gun that will be easy to
move if needed to in a hurry.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233483 - 04/08/13 09:08 PM

As 500Nitro says, if you buy an Italian or Spanish double rifle and need to sell it, it will be harder. If you can get someone to completely check that Cogswell and it is good that is a fine rifle. There is no difference in felt recoil between a .470 and a .500 IF the gun fits and is the right weight and you hold it properly IMO, my .470 seemed to hit me harder than my .500 but the .500 was made for me, best, Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233484 - 04/08/13 09:24 PM


Mike

Thanks for that. I was going to say the same thing about the Coggie but forgot.

At least well worth looking at and likely to be a Webley and the correct weight !

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233487 - 04/08/13 09:50 PM

How could I get someone to check the Cogswell (who)? It is within an hour of my house, but I don't know any reasonably qualified gunsmith around here. I don't even like to get my o/u shotguns worked on locally...

You confirmed what I was thinking about this gun, there is no real basis to justify a price for me to later sell this (Zanardini) gun - would be different if it were 1 of 20 that I owned and I was madly in love with it.

I've got to get my hands on a Heym and a Searcy. Will do more research on a Searcy - really like the looks/style. I feel there is no doubt that the Heym is more esteemed (may very be where I settle), but doesn't quite (maybe) have the style of the Searcy - just based on pic's. Also, if I can find a local expert -outside of the shop trying to sell me one, that will help with culling through rifles. On the other hand how trustworthy is a shop typically that is trying to sell these guns?

I may have gotten a bad opinion - but once many years ago on a hunting trip in CO - on the way home, we stopped by a store near/at an airport. I didn't get a good feel that the opinions on guns I asked about were unbiased - not a good experience for me. Maybe I formed a premature opinion, but there I was told not to consider a Merkel and how great another French made gun was. I was rubbed the wrong way (maybe it was just me), many of you probably know the shop and the gun maker I am speaking of. Should I consider "shopping" at this store, or have others had the same experience? If this is a nice place to shop/get advice please tell me and I will try to wash this bad experience from my mind. There appears to be a lot of nice guns there...

Not trying to bash any maker or shop, just trying to make sure I am listening to the facts and unbiased opinions.

Thank ya'll again.

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne



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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233490 - 04/08/13 10:02 PM


Verney Caron )I think that's how you spell it)
is another name to look at.

Also Chapuis.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233491 - 04/08/13 10:04 PM


Nitro

Having a nice lot of guns doesn't mean anything.

If they are over priced, they sit there as a lot
seem to do.

Have a look at the Champlins web site.

He seems to price right and move a few.

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pondoro62
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233492 - 04/08/13 10:07 PM

Nitro Steel...I would strongly suggest that you check out the C&G .500 NE, if you can see yourself coping with such a heavy rifle...what an elephant rifle..!

I have looked for a heavy double for years.....I dislike all the german doubles except the Heym (to expensive for me..)

Finally I had a strike of luck and bought a very nice old english double, a Midland Gun Co. in .475x3 1/4, a lovely balanced rifle at 11 lbs +, luckily it is like it was made for me....for USD 6500,-

A rifle in an oddball calibre from a rather unknown maker, but still a great rifle on the Webley action, dolls head extention.

The bargains are still out there....and british vintage rifles hold their value..

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233493 - 04/08/13 10:09 PM

That's exactly what i'm getting at:

Champlin's "IS" a nice/fair place to do business and get honest advice/opinions?

if so, cool I will look harder at his guns/site again. Let me know.

Thank you,

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne



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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233494 - 04/08/13 10:10 PM


Yes, from what I hear, honest opinions and a fair price.

He moves guns, doesn't sit on them.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233495 - 04/08/13 10:11 PM

Nitrosteel, if you want I can call a friend at Holland and Holland NY tommorow, if you can get the Cogswell on consignment for 10 days or so, you can send it there, they will give you a complete appraisal, check regulation with modern ammo and then you can decide, I would take a good Cogswell over any double rifle made in the US (no offense to anyone on the forum), best, Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233496 - 04/08/13 10:12 PM


So would I.

A good Coggie, especially if a Webley if all good,
excellent option.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233497 - 04/08/13 10:14 PM


I gather this is the Cogswell 500

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Cogswell-Harrison-500-Nitro-Express.cfm?gun_id=100186158


Just having a look at it now.

Will come back with thoughts.

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
      #233498 - 04/08/13 10:17 PM

Yes, Pondoro. An elephant rifle is what I am wanting (though I'll probably never hunt elephant). How can I know what the fair/great price is on the Cogswell?

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233499 - 04/08/13 10:23 PM

Quote:


I gather this is the Cogswell 500

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Cogswell-Harrison-500-Nitro-Express.cfm?gun_id=100186158


Just having a look at it now.

Will come back with thoughts.



That looks to be a .500BPE to me. Old style fences, light stock with steel buttplate, 9.25 lbs.

I don't think the C&H in this link was built as a .500NE.

Curl

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233500 - 04/08/13 10:24 PM

First things, for a $20,000 gun he takes lousy photos.
I would expect more effort from someone trying to sell something in that price range - or any price range for that matter, especially with today's easy to use digital cameras.


1. I'd like to see the proof marks on that gun before you do anything.

I just have a sneaking suspicion it may be a Black Powder gun or Nitro for Black powder gun that has been re proofed for 500 Nitro.

Weight 9.25 is light for a 500 Nitro and from that era,
very light. I have had 3 of them and none of them were anywhere near that weight, more like 11 lbs or more.

The stock is also way to light for a 500 Nitro,
my 3 x 500 Nitro's have stocks built like brick
shit houses, thick in the wrist and in the butts.
Again, looks like a BP gun to me.

So that is my initial observation. I may be wrong on
my assumption but the US is notorious for re chambering and / or re proofing guns so they are more "sellable" due to the calibre etc.

You said you didn't know what to look for in English guns so I am being overly cautious in highlighting possible issues to look for.


Finally, the guys descriptions of both guns leaves a fair bit to be desired. I would expect more from someone trying to sell guns at that level, plus the fact he dropped $7,000 off the first gun, to me that says he was hoping some dope would walk in and buy it at that price.

And then when you came along, he thought here is an opportunity to move it on at cost so gave a big discount.

Just my HO, I would be interested in anyone else's thoughts
re any of what I have written above.

Edited by 500Nitro (04/08/13 10:25 PM)

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