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zephyr
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Reged: 20/09/05
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Cape Buff vs Water Buff
      #232426 - 13/07/13 11:17 AM

How do they compare,

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Claydog
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: zephyr]
      #232428 - 13/07/13 11:34 AM

Pato and I are going for our first Cape Buff in September. Our hunter there says he would rate them about the same. So I may hopefully be able to tell you after that.

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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: Claydog]
      #232431 - 13/07/13 02:02 PM

One has been noted for centuries as one of the worlds most dangerous and tenacious big game animals......the other?

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Claydog
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: gryphon]
      #232432 - 13/07/13 03:14 PM

While not knowing first hand much about the Cape Buffalo, I would say that generally the water buffalo when wounded doesn't seem to be very aggressive. Of course there is always the exception but usually looking for one not put down in not a hair raising experience. Seems the African ones take more exception from what I hear. The water buffalo can be plenty tough without good shot placement and there are lots of examples of individuals with poor dispositions.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: gryphon]
      #232436 - 13/07/13 03:40 PM

Quote:

One has been noted for centuries as one of the worlds most dangerous and tenacious big game animals......the other?




Both beasts can fight back and do, unlike some others favourite animal species which only run away.

One reason is it is African habit to promote everything as death defying, only real man kind of stuff to do. The PH or DG client stands head and shoulders above lesser men ...

It is Aussie habit to down play everything, saying it is easy mate, no problem, only a pussy needs to use anything more than a .303 or .308 to shoot anything ...

Actually the cape buff during European colonial days was often thought quite reasonably huntable with common deer and plains game rifles such as the .30-06, 8x57mm/60mm, .318 etc.

Huge numbers (thousands at a time) were shot for meat and hide processors using such rifles.

WDM Bell thought his 6.5x54/.256 Mannlicher was his ideal cape buffalo rifle.

I think the "Black Death" image largely started since the end of colonial citizen hunting and the wish to promote death defying hunting to clients.

Not to say Cape Buffalo are not dangerous game. But my experience in Parks in Africa, Sri Lanka, and Australia, is when the animals are not hunted they act very similar. Stand around to be photographed, unconcerned, whether man in is a vehicle or on foot. Of course approaching too close is unwise. Where hunted hard, both species of buffalo can be very wary and flee at the first sight of humans.

It is not possible or at least very difficult to hunt water buffalo where they have been always wild, as they are often considered endangered wildlife today. Hunts can be done in feral populations in South America, Australia and Philippines. Perhaps in Vietnam where they could be from truly wild populations (?). Per historical accounts they were considered dangerous game and especially when one takes into account the thick jungle conditions in which they were often hunted.

I have hunted a fair number of water buffalo but hunted only one cape buff bull, with a rifle at least. Have stalked them a number of times without rifle and only camera, in the Okavango, on the Zambezi in Zambia, Zimbabwe etc. But per knowledgeable hunters and PHs who have hunted more cape buff as well as some water buff, they actually say water buff is potentially harder to kill. Yet both species are sometimes easy to kill, sometimes tenacious.

I believe cape buff are more aggressive due to their environment, dealing with hunting lion prides etc. Their ribs may also have a different structure to a water buffalo.

***

Irrespective of the above, BOTH are great fun to hunt, deserve respect, and dangerous if wounded and needing follow up. I want to hunt BOTH again and as many times as opportunities allow.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (14/07/13 03:19 PM)


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grandveneur
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: NitroX]
      #232440 - 13/07/13 05:18 PM

A buffalo is a buffalo !

I don't know the introduced australian water buffalo , but i shot some buffalos in Malaysia near the Tamang Negara N.P / Pahang , and in oil palm plantation on the border of the jungle . This buffalos stay in deep rain forest with a lot of tigers and other predators around . I don't saw a difference in animal behaviour by this buffalos and all the african subspecies . I had also the opportunity to see a young seladang bull in the mountain rain forest . It look in my direction like a "normal" buffalo !


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zephyr
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: grandveneur]
      #232445 - 13/07/13 07:00 PM

Thanks for your insights ...... As much as I would like to return to Africa, not a bad goal to see and experience the rest of the world while carrying a rifle..

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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: zephyr]
      #232460 - 14/07/13 04:37 AM


Q NE:Both beasts can fight back and do, unlike some others favourite animal species which only run away.EQ

WTF has that got to do with it JH? Absolutely nothing other than a shit stir.You know or should know more about game animals ( in Aus) than to come out with such trite poop)

One species has killed thousands of humans and still continues to kill humans both hunters and citizens to this day.Historical writings show this to all and sundry,there are no ifs and no buts the CB has the score on the board and if anyone argues otherwise they are proudly showing their own personal ignorance ( or vested interest in promoting anything other)

I will bet that Jersey Bulls have killed more people than 'the other' in Australia.

Q: NE
One reason is it is African habit to promote everything as death defying, only real man kind of stuff to do. The PH or DG client stands head and shoulders above lesser men ... EQ

This is a mantra favoured by those that like to do much the same with the domestic version.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: gryphon]
      #232476 - 14/07/13 03:57 PM

Shitstir for shitstir. But why do you always need to argue things in a personal aggressive manner? Why not argue the points in a debate instead.

***

As for some comments:
"One species has killed thousands of humans"

Where did this statistic come from?

How many people are killed per year for example? How many people are killed by un-wounded cape buffalo per year?

You do know that it is possible to walk up to 50 metres away from a herd of cape buffalo in a park. They will watch you, but not instantly charge with death in their eyes. If anything they will run away. A true story. I approached a herd in the long grass in Zambia on the Zambezi. And climbed a termite mound to get a photo at the herd. The young PH with me, unarmed, said something like "Watch out these are cape buffalo!" to get an effect. I said "I think if they do anything, they will ran away." He smiled having had his joke turned around.

Another time I was trying to get good photographs of cape buffalo and our vehicle was within 50 metres, maybe 20 metres of the herd. One boring old bag in the vehicle started to get scared and demanded we leave "I'm scared" she said. The buffalo were aware of us, but showing no sign of aggression whatsoever. No good photos obtained. The only reason we were on the drive was because I had organised it ... Always better to have a vehicle or trip to oneself ...

One park we stayed in Zambia had a herd of cape buffalo feeding on the brush all around the camp, within the camp, even twenty metres from the dining area. Our tent was on a winding track through the dark bush and yes it was a little concerning walking along it as one does not want to bump into anything nasty at very close range. As one would not want to walk up to a "Jersey Bull" for example ...

There is no doubt local people are killed by cape buffalo through misadventure. Similarly in Sri Lanka where wild water buffalo do exist, I know the same can occur. I think there have been a report or two from Arnhemland in the last couple of years. But do you realise there are a hell of a LOT more people wondering around, working, living etc in the African bush than in Arnhemland ...

There is no doubt there is also a problem when cape buffalo are wounded. But I would also guess there are a hell of a lot more cape buffalo hunted in total per year than water buffalo. The statistic would be interesting.

"I will bet that Jersey Bulls have killed more people than 'the other' in Australia."

Do you know that some Aussie hunters that have hunted cape and water buffalo and scrub bull, say the humble scrub bull is by far the likeliest to charge. From my limited experience that is true too, two charges or part charges by scrub bull (that is a 33% incident rate btw), one part charge by a water buffalo (5% rate) and having only hunted cape buffalo once would not make any comment on charges.

"This is a mantra favoured by those that like to do much the same with the domestic version."

Yes wasn't that one of my points? But I put up two sides of the story. Both indicating "docility" and wildness in both species at times, and in different scenarios.

***

And as previously said, I love hunting both. And would hunt cape buffalo more if finances allowed.

***

I reckon it would be good to hear from some of the members from their own personal experiences with the wild bovine species. Either way. Nothing wrong with a debate.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (14/07/13 04:05 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: NitroX]
      #232477 - 14/07/13 04:09 PM

Quote:

I reckon it would be good to hear from some of the members from their own personal experiences with the wild bovine species. Either way. Nothing wrong with a debate.




Actually I'd love to hear from our members who have hunted either species a short story of their hunt. And especially what sort of aggressive behaviour they have experienced from the species during their hunts. Always willing to learn.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: NitroX]
      #232481 - 14/07/13 06:36 PM

Quote:

But why do you always need to argue things in a personal aggressive manner? Why not argue the points in a debate instead.




You are kidding.... geezuz!

I have been.

In answer to this
"How many people are killed per year for example? How many people are killed by un-wounded cape buffalo per year?"

A far lot more than Asiatic Buffalo kill.

I understand that only hippos and crocs kill more people in Africa than any other animal.
Search engines have reams of stats,some have been glossed and painted of course some are 100% true,its not hard to find answers.

All my life I have read of the very same pro hunters tales both old and new that are revered and spoken of in awe by many members of NE..these pro hunters attest to in print countless stories of incidents/accidents and deaths caused by C/Buffalo. The C/buffalo certainly are not in the BIG FIVE for nothing.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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ozhunter
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: NitroX]
      #232482 - 14/07/13 06:37 PM

Sadly no experience with Water Buffalo or Bantang but hope to remedy that some day. Oh, and I wont be shooting them from a bench rested vehicle with a light calibre. Get in close and whack it with a big bore sound more fun. No?

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ozhunter
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: gryphon]
      #232483 - 14/07/13 06:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But why do you always need to argue things in a personal aggressive manner? Why not argue the points in a debate instead.




You are kidding.... geezuz!

I have been.






Yup


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: ozhunter]
      #232499 - 14/07/13 11:42 PM

Anyway JG, I'll leave it at that.

Ozhunter, you have hunted a few cape buff. Any experiences to share from your own hunts? Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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grandveneur
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: zephyr]
      #232514 - 15/07/13 06:49 AM

Africa is the last corner where you can hunt buffalos in the natural environment . In South/East Asia it is almost impossible to do that today . A great pity !

With regard to the dangerousness of the buffalo , it is said and displayed a lot of nonsense especially by DVD's from so-called star PH's !

All bigger game can kill human people ! We have hunter's killed by wild boar's and sometimes even by red deers ! A matter of hunting circumstances and experience of each .

Edited by grandveneur (15/07/13 06:55 AM)


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Claydog
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: grandveneur]
      #232517 - 15/07/13 08:07 AM

It is a matter of circumstances. The only time I have really been charged by a water buffalo I was armed with nothing but a fishing spear walking along the river. This fellow was rather worked up most likely over a woman and put on a display of thrashing bushes and trees. Then he saw us and galloped at us with a pace and agility that was both surprising and reason for respect. I was a bit quicker in those days and made a patch of thick trees in good time. I was glad of the head start.He lost interest and continued thrashing around and galloped off. I did shoot one at a local roadhouse that had treed several tourists. Turned out to be a young bull that had been shot near the horn base and the bullet was lodged in the horn. Would explain his disposition.It can happen and you need only see two bulls fight to realise what damage they could do. I have heard the cape buff is talked up alot, there are a few operators up this way I hear do the same with water buffalo. Usually nothing would happen but is that off chance something could that makes it interesting. Especially getting up as close as you can in the thick stuff.

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zephyr
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: grandveneur]
      #232520 - 15/07/13 08:21 AM

I shot my Cape along with a Tuskless last Sept with Butch Coaton of Roger Whittall Safaris in the Chewore South concession in Zimbabwe, I shot my Buff with a 400H&H and a 370gr CEB NC leaving the barrel at 2450fps. Here is the Buff excerpt from a hunt report I gave.....
Day 3 57*f-104*f steady winds...
By 8:00 we were in the same herd hard in the Jess by the Angwa River and by 9:30 they were bedding down for the morning, we backed out and piled in the truck to drive and look. We had not gone far when the boys in the back spotted two Dagga Boys on a hill side, Butch kept the truck rolling and continued to drive around the corner and up towards the ridge where we came to a stop and kitted up. With the wind blowing steady in our faces we started our approach perhaps 30 minutes later we came to the ridge line that the Boys had seen the bulls and found fresh tracks. After a quiet discussion one of the trackers moved off to the right staying with the tracks and we stayed on the ridge. We had not moved more than 40 yards when the tracker with us froze and slowly pointed, perhaps 50 yards in front was one of the bulls laying down looking directly at us. Slowly the tracker with us lay down on his side and with a small 4' bush between us and the bull Butch slowly advanced with me on his heels, one step, two, maybe three and froze. His glasses slowly came up and he studied the bull for what seemed like ages. He started to move his sticks when the bull stood up looking hard at us. Butch whispered over his shoulder asking if I was comfortable shooting offhand. I shoot left handed and not wanting to break our outline I took a half a step laterally with my left foot leaned slightly out to the left raised my gun and pressed the trigger. The bush exploded I slammed another round into the chamber and started to swing on the bull as he was moving left to right I vaguely saw a second shape behind my bull and thought I heard Butch yell don't shoot as I was pressing the trigger for a second time. I pushed hard with my forward hand and the round went in front I cycled the action again only to feel the bolt stopping a third of the way forward a quick glance showed a jammed round I ripped out the round cycled the action and the noise stopped. The pair ran down hill stopping 70 yards away my bull slowly went down while his mate lingered I topped of my magazine spun off my scope and handed it to my wife and followed Butch down the hill. At our approach the second bull ran and I put the assurance round into the downed bull's chest. As the sound from the final shot died we could see his mate standing on the next ridge outlined by the morning sky looking over his nose, ears, horns, shoulders one last look and he was gone.


I had half expected a battle when I was mentally and physically preparing for my Buff hunt and was somewhat surprised at the outcome, one shot to the chest and an assurance shot.


Besides the Gods smiling I feel that the PH put me in the right place and that the rifle and bullet did what was expected. I saw plenty of Buff in the Jess a nose here a couple of feet and a chest there. It would have been hard to have pulled the trigger with confidence with a PH telling me to shoot at the black spot next to the green leaf.
My ramblings lead me to the conclusion that any animal wild or domestic that is not respected can be dangerous, any hunting situation where a bullet is placed poorly (and were all due one or two)especially with an animal over a 1000lbs can lead to an outcome that is not of our choosing. Which is more challenging Cape or Water I hope to find out one of these days...


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Cazadero
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Re: Cape Buff vs Water Buff [Re: zephyr]
      #232525 - 15/07/13 01:16 PM

Having hunted Cape Buffalo twice in Zimbabwe, and with the limitations on my disposable income, I've pretty much decided that I don't ever want to hunt anything else ever again. (Currently I am saving up for Mozambique in a few years.)

That being said, I'd love to have a nice big Water Buffalo to compliment my trophy room. I don't hunt buffalo just because they are supposedly or in actuality dangerous, but rather to see if I can do it. Tracking them, finding them, and sneaking up close is the trick that provides the reward, and I don't imagine Water Buff are any easier, unless of course they are in an area where they are used to seeing humans. At the same time there is no doubt that some danger factor exists, and admittedly yes, I like knowing that. If you get gored by either one, will it really matter?


BTW Zephyr fantastic shooting!


As for the hype that goes into today's safari industry, I would tend to agree on the ridiculous BS level but I won't get started on one of my tirades. At the same time its not all hype, there is some basis of fact, and here are some older quotes for perspective, which may lend a small bit of credibility to the reputation.

--

“I consider it probable that no animal in all the long list of African great game is endowed with more terrible ferocity than the buffalo, when once his resentment has been aroused.”

Maugham, R.C.F., Wild Game in Zambezia, Charles Scribner’s and Sons, New York, 1914

--

“The Buffalo is the one animal in the veldt that cannot be stopped when he charges except by death…”

Chadwick, W.S., Rhodesian Buffalo, Man-Killers and Marauders, H.F.&G. Witherby, London 1929

--

“There is no doubt that under certain circumstances buffalo, in addition to showing themselves exceedingly dangerous opponents when wounded by hunters, become truculent and inclined to take the offensive themselves.”

Roosevelt, Theodore, African Game Trails, Charles Scribner’s and Sons 1910, (A Buffalo Hunt on the Kamiti)

--


But I have to admit that one of my favorites, even though it throws a bit of a wrench in the gears, is this one:

Kittenberger, Kalmán, Big Game Hunting and Collecting in East Africa, 1903-1926, Edward Arnold & Co. London, 1929

“I have come to the conclusion that buffalo are not so black as they are painted.”


Good hunting to all.


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