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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Thoughts from a "newbie"
      #231773 - 28/06/13 07:15 AM

(Virgin post here) I've been following these conversions with great interest, and as I myself have a great passion for firearms and many things mechanical, I find this fascinating. Besides the obvious need for me to pick up Ellis's compendium on the conversion of double shotguns to double rifles, this forum has been an excellent resource.

Now, besides the obvious legal ramifications of producing one's own receivers for anything other than personal use according to BATF regulations, I wonder if it might be easier to produce one's own back end versus using something like a Merkel (several thousand dollars for the donor shotgun if that's the case)? I've been toying with the idea of buying a Baikal double rifle for the sake of disassembling it and sinking my teeth into the mechanical tolerances of the action on something like a 30-06 or .45-70 but might be be better to just find a reasonably strong shotgun for conversion instead for the same amount of money... Hrm. I'd love to hear your opinions on this.

Edited by Ckhobart (28/06/13 04:59 PM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231784 - 28/06/13 09:58 AM

Welcome to the site!

At my last visit to Mark Fore and Strike, they had a baikal 45-70 double rifle in stock. Done, built, good to go, no modification necessary. Good deal on a good rifle.

Building a double rifle, either on an existing action or completely from scratch -- is a very big undertaking. Spend your money wisely on a running rifle, then if you find yourself with a few extra thousand dollars and a great deal of time (when you're not working/studying/sleeping...) to throw at such a project. You'll need to come to the effort with a great bit of skill and tooling too.




Cheers from Palomino Valley!
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: tinker]
      #231795 - 28/06/13 05:01 PM

Well hello fellow Nevada...er. Anyway yes, I figure it'll be a big undertaking but I love projects hehe. I may or may not buy a Baikal but for now I'm here to learn.

Cheers from Reno,
Chris


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231799 - 28/06/13 05:20 PM

Some of what you guys on here have done is just damned impressive. I've tossed the idea of building from a spare Stevens action we have sitting around for a single shot but I don't trust the metal and a double gun would just be... so much better, in every way. I've always wanted one. The mystique of the dangerous game rifles of the 19th century is intoxicating. Heck, even messing around with my build buddy's martini henry is just too much fun!

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savage458
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231806 - 28/06/13 09:44 PM

Ckhobart

I see you are reading posted replay's, and learning. Thats good, we all love to play with DR's and shoot them. You will have a lots of fun here and learn how to convert your own shotgun to DR. Remember, you will need Mill, Lathe and grinder of some kind. Lots of files and sandpaper to. Or have a friend that has similar interest and do it together with you. Good luck, and go buy USED Baikal double rifle and shoot it. Gunbroker has good deals sometimes.


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Huvius
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: savage458]
      #231816 - 29/06/13 12:12 AM

Chris, I applaud your enthusiasm!
Although I have yet to build a double of any kind, I do have some double rifles and have given a build a lot of thought myself.
One thing I may have missed in your posts is, what caliber/performance range cartridge are you wishing for and what do you intend to use your rifle for?
The reason I ask is that if you want to go big, you may want to start out with a 12 or 10ga with shortened barrels and see how it works with bullets, sabots or round balls. Some other members here have been quite successful in getting a smoothbore to shoot well and it could be just the experience you need as far as setting up a regulation jig and getting the barrels to shoot together.
Then, if that ends up not being your cup of tea, just cut the barrels back for a monoblock and go for the whole rebarrel job.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: savage458]
      #231833 - 29/06/13 05:17 AM

Quote:

Ckhobart

I see you are reading posted replay's, and learning. Thats good, we all love to play with DR's and shoot them. You will have a lots of fun here and learn how to convert your own shotgun to DR. Remember, you will need Mill, Lathe and grinder of some kind. Lots of files and sandpaper to. Or have a friend that has similar interest and do it together with you. Good luck, and go buy USED Baikal double rifle and shoot it. Gunbroker has good deals sometimes.




heh thanks. I'm in the market for a lathe right now, I have plenty of other tooling (though a better means of milling is another thing I'm looking for). I have a good friend I do gun projects with, we've built a number of rifles but nothing as time consuming as a double. Which is one of the reasons I'm so happy with the prospect of doing it. My classload is very small for awhile and my work hours are flexible, so other than the house projects I always have (new bathrooms, ripping up floors, building sheds, landscaping) and car project (Fj40 anyone?) I've got loads of free time haha!

thanks for the advice on a Baikal, I'm not sure if I want to buy one and get a better feel for a D/R or if I want to buy a shotgun receiver first (I figure the shotgun will be a fair bit cheaper, cheapest I've found Baikal's for recently is $700 used)


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Huvius]
      #231835 - 29/06/13 05:30 AM

Quote:

Chris, I applaud your enthusiasm!
Although I have yet to build a double of any kind, I do have some double rifles and have given a build a lot of thought myself.
One thing I may have missed in your posts is, what caliber/performance range cartridge are you wishing for and what do you intend to use your rifle for?
The reason I ask is that if you want to go big, you may want to start out with a 12 or 10ga with shortened barrels and see how it works with bullets, sabots or round balls. Some other members here have been quite successful in getting a smoothbore to shoot well and it could be just the experience you need as far as setting up a regulation jig and getting the barrels to shoot together.
Then, if that ends up not being your cup of tea, just cut the barrels back for a monoblock and go for the whole rebarrel job.




Actually my build buddy has a 12 gauge exposed hammer double barrel cheapo'1920's "Get off my porch" granny gun (as we call it), we've been thinking about getting our hands dirty with regulation using it. Its action is probably not strong enough to support a rebarrel job (cheap Sears special I think, the brand was only made for less than 10 years if memory serves I'll have the info today; he's down the hill in Sacramento defending the nation's toast).

As far as caliber goes for our first build? We're not sure. I'd like to stick to a classic round, something strong enough for pretty much all North American game but not extravagantly large. .375H&H, 9.3x73R, of maybe non-spitzer like a .400 jeffrey or .450 Nitro would be right up my alley but he wants to go with a wildcat (something I'm against for a first build of this type). I've been thinking about that a lot, and I'm open to any advice you guys have


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231904 - 01/07/13 03:56 AM

Take this gun, make an entirely new set of barrels in 577NE or 12 bore rifled and keep the shotgun barrels intact.
I am not sure if it has bushed firing pins or not so maybe a light nitro a'la Fat Lady would be the best choice if not.
If I were serious about building a double rifle, I think that is the path I would take.

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=2479

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Huvius]
      #233045 - 28/07/13 09:14 AM

so how strong is the action on a Baikal? .45-70 isn't a wildly high pressure cartridge but 30-06 is a pretty hot little round. I wonder how much more abuse the back end could take (replacing everything but the receiver, I mean). I know the largest amount of gas pressure will be going forward and out so it might be suitable for a meaner build, or even keeping the existing cartridge and perhaps sleeving the barrels and making them look better at the very least

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #234251 - 14/08/13 04:50 PM

http://www.bundukipublishing.com/doublerifle.htm

thank god for this. Half the price it is on Amazon heh


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #234385 - 18/08/13 01:53 AM

Hi Ckhobart,
Welcome to the world of building double rifles. I don't want to come off as a "know it all", but I think you have strayed off in the wrong direction from the beginning. Don't feel bad , it happens to many of us. I am going to give you some free advice so take it for what it is worth. First of all, do not buy a Biakal with the idea of converting it to another caliber, that is not practical or even safe for many reasons, not the least of which is the size of their barrels back at the breech.
I bought one of their 30-06 over and under models just to try and figure out how they could get by making such small diameter barrels. My 30-06 has barrels at the monoblock that measure only .765 inches and they rapidly decrease down to around .600 inches across. These small barrels are not conducive to being replaced with anything other than some caliber that would be made smaller and weaker. I don't own one of their 45/70 guns, but if they are made in this same fashion, they would not be a good candidate to convert either. I see on here all the time about someone wanting to rechamber their Biakal to some bigger and longer .45 caliber cartridge. My advice, Don't Do It!, Don't Even Think About Doing It! There is not enough steel in their barrels to warrent even thinking about making them into something larger, plus the fact that we don't even know what the Russians used for steel in them.
Don't misunderstand me, I am not running down the Biakal guns, they are dandy as a entry level double rifles, cheap and well built as far as their strength goes, but they are also somewhat crudely made. They have cut corners where they safely could. Even if you could convert one of them to something else, you would have to do a massive amount of work to make it look presentable as a double rifle. For one thing it would have to be restocked in order to fit anyone except somebody with the largest hands,(the pistol grip is way too long on all of them to make it comfortable to shoot the front trigger). The stocks are crude in other ways as well. They leave so much extra wood on them that they look like they were made by a highschool boy in Junior High shop class.
The next gun you talked about converting was a cheap, older hammer gun. This is not a very wise choice either. Depending on how the firing pins are set up, it may be unsafe with even shotgun shells in it. Most hammer guns are not really good candidates for converting because of their age and the lack of any kind of third fastener. I have only seen a few hammer guns with a rib extension, and have never seen one with the Purdy sliding bolt. What you should be looking for is a European 12 gauge with or without a cheek piece, that has double underlugs and a third fastener of some kind. 12 gauges are much easier to convert than a 20 or even a 16 gauge because they have so much more metal in them and have more room to work inside the monoblock.
If you buy a 12 gauge European shotgun, with possibly bad barrels or something, your donor gun may already have such desireable features as firing pin bushings, sideclips, a cheek piece, and sling swivels, plus you can buy it at a bargin price. Rememeber, you are going to replace the barrels anyway. If the wood is in decent shape you can get by re-usung the stock and forend. This all saves time and money and gets you shooting it quicker. You can buy these for very reasonable prices if you watch the auction sites and you will end up with a much stronger and better donor gun.
Bob


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #234409 - 18/08/13 06:44 AM

thanks bob! I'll take your advice to heart. Just been rough trying to find donor guns for under 3 grand

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #234411 - 18/08/13 08:02 AM

Quote:

Just been rough trying to find donor guns for under 3 grand




Try this site:http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php


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AkMike
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: xausa]
      #234420 - 18/08/13 02:11 PM

For 3K you could get a Sabatti 'plain jane' 9.3X74R and make a second set of tubes in a different flavor and still have a great medium bore.

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crkennedy1
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: AkMike]
      #234432 - 19/08/13 01:54 AM

It looks like Cabela's has the Sabetti Model 92 for just under $3K

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search.cm...%3Bcat107030880

As an FYI, I own the Remington (Baikal) in both the .30-06 & 45-70, and love them. Good luck!

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: crkennedy1]
      #235457 - 11/09/13 10:26 AM

Quote:

It looks like Cabela's has the Sabetti Model 92 for just under $3K

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search.cm...%3Bcat107030880

As an FYI, I own the Remington (Baikal) in both the .30-06 & 45-70, and love them. Good luck!




I know, I work at Cabelas in town part time haha. Hrm. We've got an Aya 10g too for $750 right now I've been eyeing... I'll give this more thought after hunting season. This year just mule deer


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
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Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #235614 - 14/09/13 09:23 AM

http://www.757arms.com./p-171-simson-599.aspx

Oh my. This is a pretty good deal


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relics6165
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Reged: 15/12/12
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Ckhobart]
      #235617 - 14/09/13 02:10 PM

That would be a good one to start with!

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Igorrock
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: relics6165]
      #235628 - 15/09/13 12:11 AM

I own boxlock Sauer & sohn from year 1962. Itīs acceptable for shotgunning but if I will convert it to double rifle there is at least two details which I do not like so much. First; triggers are quite heavy to pull and there is no reason to talk about any "crisp" trigger. Second; the angle of the firing pins is very difficult if you are going to bushing them.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by Igorrock (15/09/13 02:28 AM)


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Shotgunlover
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Igorrock]
      #235631 - 15/09/13 03:25 AM

It is customary in shotgun forums to treat the Baikal with derision. When pressed the critis admit they never took one apart and most assume it is just another copy of an Anson-Deeley boxlock. It is not.

The action is a close copy of the Winchester model 21, which means the recesses are round, therefore the action is stronger than the usual Anson. The springs are coil, therefore less prone to breakage and easy to change.

Seeing that this is a place for the more mechanically minded folk, it is worth stressing these points. Not being a DR owner, but as an avid shotgunner, I have seen this action customised with impressive results in terms of handling and function. Presumable the same can be done with the DR clone.

Customised or not, the thought of an inexpensive, yet tough DR that can be dragged over hill and vale has a certain appeal. I just wish there was a flanged version of the 30-06, rimless cartridges in the DR just don't seem right, but that might be just prejudice.

The Baikal was conceived and designed to be inexpensive in production and this feature makes it easy in customising. The tang is parallel, and the action to stock head fit is on the circle, the stock is bolted. It is a dawdle to restock, and that would be my first step if I were doing it. A plain solid piece of walnut with the right pitch, decent grip and comb height would do a lot for this rifle. Polishing the internals (rough is a mild term for the factory finish) and a thorough check of the sear-hammer engagement complete the project. It would be far easier, cheaper and more rewarding than trying to make a DR from scratch or from an adapted action body.

--------------------
Shotgunlover


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Igorrock
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #235632 - 15/09/13 03:50 AM

Quote:

I just wish there was a flanged version of the 30-06



Such ammo is very easy to do; take 7x65R shell, fullsize it in .30-06 die and after that open shell to .30 bullet and trim it to the correct lenght. Baikal .30-06 is also very easy to convert to rimmed ammo; just open the extractor to rimmed case head.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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relics6165
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Igorrock]
      #235642 - 15/09/13 12:12 PM

There is a flanged version of the 30-06, it's called the 30R Blaser.

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Igorrock
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Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: relics6165]
      #235650 - 15/09/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

There is a flanged version of the 30-06, it's called the 30R Blaser.


Actually, .30 Blaser has been invented as been a "flanged .30-06" but dimensions are not same as real .30-06 has.

.30 Blaser


.30-06


--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Thoughts from a "newbie" [Re: Igorrock]
      #235742 - 18/09/13 07:12 AM

Well, I can go two ways: First, I can buy a simson for $600+ and sit on it, then buy a Baikal and use it for comparative purposes, or buy the baikal then go for the simson.

PS: Love the discussion on the 30R blazer, another neat round we don't see stateside often


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