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buckstix
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W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made
      #231717 - 27/06/13 01:21 PM

Hello All,

I didn't get a lot response on the other Forum, so I thought to ask here instead.

I'm acquiring a W. Richards 577/500. (William Richards) I'd like some help determining the date of when the rifle was made and possibly something about the maker.

Its a 500 No.2 Express (577/500) - It's an an Underlever with Non-Rebounding Hammers - 28" Barrels - A&T Henry's Patent Rifling - Birmingham proofs?

Its not a very robust rifle, weighing only 8 Lbs. 9 Oz.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Here are a few pics.

Thanks









--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: buckstix]
      #231718 - 27/06/13 01:46 PM


Hi,

they look like Non rebounding locks, is that correct ?

If so, would make it earlier than later made gun
as they went to rebounding locks for obvious reasons.

I would say Pre 1900 until I get a chance to
look at the proof marks and my book.

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: buckstix]
      #231719 - 27/06/13 02:06 PM

The earliest records for William Richards of Liverpool are of 1877 for serial number 6788. Your rifle would be early 1870's or late 1860's, probably 1870-71.

W. Richards was a prolific maker of inexpensive guns and apparently a few rifles, with shops in Preston and Liverpool. It is a good guess that he did not make this rifle but bought it from the Birmingham trade who made it for Richards and engraved it with his name and address----this was common among regional gunmakers.

The W. Richards company survived to 1951.

Business name and records are held by Chris Caine t/a W Richards (Gunmaker), Liverpool at Sherwood House, 4 Main Street, Bishop Wilton, Yorks YO 42 iRX Tel/Fax 01759 305088. (Source: Vol 2 "British Gunmakers"--Nigel Brown)

Regards;
Steve

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buckstix
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: transvaal]
      #231720 - 27/06/13 03:10 PM

Hello Transvaal,

Thanks for the reply. But I'm somewhat puzzled about your dating. It's my understanding that the 500 No. 2 Express (577/500) didn't appear on the market until the mid to late 1870's.

Is it possible that the A&T (Adams and Tait, Birmingham barrel maker) Henry's Patent record numbers: right barrel 2074, and left barrel 2075, along with the barrels serial number 13429 on the bottom rib, might offer some clue as to the manufacturing date?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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transvaal
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: buckstix]
      #231721 - 27/06/13 03:17 PM

It could have been made in mid 1870's, however as I stated the earliest serial number recorded on record for W. Richards leads me to believe it was made early 1870's.

Steve

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underlever
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: transvaal]
      #231724 - 27/06/13 04:26 PM

What are the Henry Patent use numbers on the barrels ? From them we should be able to narrow it down fairly close as to when it was made.

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500Nitro
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: underlever]
      #231726 - 27/06/13 04:41 PM


"Is it possible that the A&T (Adams and Tait, Birmingham barrel maker) Henry's Patent record numbers: right barrel 2074, and left barrel 2075, along with the barrels serial number 13429 on the bottom rib, might offer some clue as to the manufacturing date?"


Yes, as alluded to in the post above.

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buckstix
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231838 - 29/06/13 06:34 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Do you know of anyone that would have the records for Adams and Tait patent use?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: buckstix]
      #231842 - 29/06/13 08:13 AM


No I don't.

The easiest way I work it out is to look through
old photos where they are used and someone has
worked out the date of the said rifle.

By doing this, you can normally narrow it down,
especially if you find a gun of the same make.

And of course proof marks etc which have date ranges.

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underlever
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Reged: 01/02/07
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Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231852 - 29/06/13 12:15 PM

My H. Holland 360 double barrels are marked " Henry's Patent A&T 1887 [right barrel ] and 1888 [left ]. It was made mid 1875 . With your barrels being approx. 200 units later, my bet is that your rifle was made late 1875 to early 1876. I'm pretty sure the Patent Use number ran consecutively, no matter who made the rifle, Alex. Henry included. Also, it looks from the pics that the forend is secured by a wedge, another pointer to an early one.

Edited by underlever (29/06/13 01:04 PM)

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: underlever]
      #231856 - 29/06/13 01:48 PM

Hello underlever,

Thank you for the info. I found a webpage for "W.Richards, Liverpool" on the internet and I emailed them for possible info, but I have not received a reply.

If others have any info about W. Richards, Liverpool or A&T and their barrel making / numbering, I would really appreciate it.

I always try to get as much history as possible about my guns.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: W. Richards 577/500 Double Questions - Who & When Made [Re: buckstix]
      #232403 - 13/07/13 12:52 AM

Hello All,

I did a little shooting with the W. Richards, and had mixed results. I haven't tried paper-patch bullets yet, I only tried some conventional bullets that I finger lubed with a proven mix that I've used for Schuetzen for many years. I call it "Blue-Bear", BB for short. (50% bees wax, 25% bear fat, 25% lanolin, +blue color)

I got a fair amount of leading within 6 - 8 shots. Not sure why, perhaps its the henry rifling. Maybe someone can tell me about this.





As best as I can measure my bore is about .509 and cast bullets were .510.

The Lyman adjustable paper patch mold casts .499 bullets from 350 grains to about 550 grains. I set it for 365 grains.

I couldn't locate any proper paper for patching, and because I'm lazy, I tried some short-cuts to paper patching. First, by using a Paper-patch bullet wrapped with a single layer of masking tape, Second, wrapping a Paper-patch bullet with a single layer of Teflon plumber's tape. The Teflon Tape didn't work at all and I got leading within 2 shots. Targets were not worth keeping. The masking tape showed a little more promise. I had a couple of flyers, but I started getting a group. Looks like I'm going to have to find the proper paper and prepare bullets like intended a 130 years ago.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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