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buckstix
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Howdah you like this? Westley Richards .375 x 2½" w/16" bbls
#231484 - 23/06/13 08:43 AM

Hello All,

Some of you may have seen the earlier posts on January 30th and May 24th about a Westley Richards .375 x 2½" Nitro Express with 16" barrels. When this rifle came up for sale on Guns International last week, I couldn't resist it. What a fun little rifle this is going to be. It tips the scales at a stout 8 pounds 10 ounces, and has an overall length of 32-7/8". That's 1-3/8" shorter than a Winchester Model 94 Trapper model with the same 16" barrel length.

The large Butt Plate and stock with a 14-1/2" LOP, means it wasn't meant for a kid. I'm betting this was an upgrade over a Howdah Pistol. I've researched high and low for Short Barreled Howdah Rifles, but find only Howdah Pistols. Some of those pistols had barrels nearly as long as this rifle. Some Howdah Pistols even had shoulder stocks attached making them a primitive form of a carbine. When used from the Howdah atop an elephant, this would have been much more controllable than a pistol, and a lot less cumbersome than a full length rifle in the confined space of the Howdah.

It has many very interesting features: Horn Forearm Tip, Horn Grip Cap, and Horn Butt Plate with the Westley Richards Logo. Super condition wood. Sling Eyes. One standing and 4 folding leaf rear sight, 50/100/150/200/300. Lots of original Case Color in protected areas, and a Bore as sharp and bright as any I've seen. Overall finish of the metal is a superb original "purplish-brown" that shows its character from use years ago. Nice overall Engraving with a "Buck Deer" on the bottom of the action, a "Crouching Tiger" on the bottom of the trigger guard, and a "Saber-Tooth Deer" on the back of the Lever. The only thing it had missing was a "Saddle-Ring". Easy to remedy.

When my brass gets here next week, I'm going to see how it shoots.

Has anyone out there worked up a .375 x 2½" load for 16" barrels?

.
.
.

And Oh Yes, .... now a Saddle Ring.
.
.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231485 - 23/06/13 08:54 AM

Nice pick up. I was wondering who got that.

Wasn't there a discussion on here or AR about it ?

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
#231486 - 23/06/13 09:34 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Yes, there was an original posting back in January, and an update in May when the provenance was obtained.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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CowboyCS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231493 - 23/06/13 01:13 PM

Nice find and a beautiful piece. Let's see, it has 16" barrels so the sights are about 12ish inches apart with leaves out to 300yards....when you get the load developed please let us know how it does with those extra leaves, I'd be especially interested in seeing how the 300yards leaf does with that short of a sight picture.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
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Matabele
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: CowboyCS]
#231497 - 23/06/13 05:07 PM

Incredible find, what a fantastic little rifle! Who did the saddle ring installation?

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NitroX
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
#231498 - 23/06/13 05:25 PM

That's a lot like Marrakai "Fatlady".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
#231506 - 23/06/13 06:56 PM

Hello Matabele,

Quote:

Incredible find, what a fantastic little rifle! Who did the saddle ring installation?

Just for fun, I installed the Saddle-Ring myself, .... via Photo-Shop.

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 08:58 PM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231510 - 23/06/13 09:42 PM

That little rifle should be heaps of fun. However, it's going to be a little difficult finding an elephant and all necessary tack.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: CptCurl]
#231514 - 23/06/13 11:33 PM

An absolutely lovely original rifle. However, the purchaser certainly did not have howdah use in mind when he ordered multiple rear sights and that very fine front sight.

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kuduae
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Ron_Vella]
#231516 - 24/06/13 12:07 AM

BTW, the animals engraved on the rifle: Your "Buck deer" on the bottom looks to me like a Chinkara aka Indian gazelle, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinkara
The "Saber tooth deer" on the toplever depicts a Musk deer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musk_deer
Both species are found in northern India.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: kuduae]
#231517 - 24/06/13 12:32 AM

Hello Kuduae,

With each new purchase comes the desire to find out as much information as possible about its history. I too was surprised to learn that the "Vampire" looking deer engraved on the back of the lever, was not a slip of the engraver's chisel. There was a deer with horns engraved on the bottom of the receiver, a Tiger on the trigger-guard, but what the heck' was that on the lever? I actually asked the seller if the "Saber-Tooth" Deer was a joke, or just some strange scratches that made the deer look like it had "Fangs".

He said "no joke", these are real deer found in India, and directed me to this link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntjac.

After about an hour of searching other links on the NET, I put together these pictures, having learned something new that eluded me for 62 years.

Hello Ron Vella,

Perhaps the original owner of this rifle in India, didn't want to get too close when hunting this scarey looking species. That might account for the 5 leaf rear sight marked out to 300 yards. Its one thing to shoot at close range, face-to-face with a Tiger, but who would take a chance at getting attacked by a "Vampire Deer."

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 08:59 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231520 - 24/06/13 01:09 AM

Buckstix, only two of your photos show Muntiac, the one at bottom left and bottom row middle/top. Muntiac have large facial glands in front of the eyes and the males bear small antlers on top of long skin covered bones. their tusks are smaller than those of Musk deer. Most of the photos you posted are in fact several subspecies of Musk deer. As neither the characteristic glands or antlers of Muntiac are shown in the engraving,but very prominent tusks, it depicts a Himalayan Musk Deer, Moschus Leucogaster, native to northern India too, IMHO.

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Oldbrit
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: kuduae]
#231527 - 24/06/13 02:08 AM

Buckstix,

Here in the UK Muntjac were kept as ornamental park deer years ago and escaped into the wild. I live in rural Norfolk and I can see Muntjac roaming in the fields at the back of my house on a regular basis. Like all deer in the UK they have no natural predators and their rapidly increasing numbers are becoming a real problem. They have all the road sense of a drunk on a pogo stick and have caused many road accidents. Hunting would be the answer but British game laws, gun licensing laws and the proximity of housing nearly everywhere present real problems.

I love the gun and as a fellow 375 X 2½ user I'll be most interested in the loads you come up with.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Oldbrit]
#231533 - 24/06/13 04:14 AM

Hello Oldbrit,

I know what you mean about cars meeting deer. Here in Wisconsin the deer / accidents total over 40,000. That's about 110 per day.

Since you are a .375 x 2½" shooter, do you have any suggestions for a place to start with a load. I'm thinking the faster burning powders would be preferred for such short barrels.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Matabele
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231535 - 24/06/13 04:41 AM

Quote:

Hello Matabele,

Quote:

Incredible find, what a fantastic little rifle! Who did the saddle ring installation?

Just for fun, I installed the Saddle-Ring myself, .... via Photo-Shop.

Haha, you got me good on that one!!

I was having minor palpitations thinking how such an amazing little rifle had been defiled like that!

Would make a fantastic bushveld gun or close range pig thumper I'd think.

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 09:00 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
#231537 - 24/06/13 05:06 AM

"Would make a fantastic bushveld gun or close range pig thumper I'd think."

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

I'd take it after Water buffalo where I had some
control over the closeness. At least once anyway !

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
#231545 - 24/06/13 05:36 AM

Hello Matabele

Quote:

Haha, you got me good on that one!! I was having minor palpitations thinking how such an amazing little rifle had been defiled like that!

I kinda wondered if I'd get any any responses showing that saddle-ring picture. I guess most readers just thought it was actually done.

It came about because a friend said; "All that needs now is a saddle-ring", So, ... I figured I'd see how it looked with one. I was surprised to find it looked so good. If I ever decide to go after Tigers on horseback, I just might actually add one.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231548 - 24/06/13 05:47 AM

buckstix

PM sent.

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Oldbrit
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Loc: UK

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
#231550 - 24/06/13 06:47 AM

Buckstix,

Most of my loading has been done with Reloder 15. 47 grains with a 270 gr cast GC bullet just about duplicates a factory load. 44 grs with a 300 gr cast GC works well.

I have found that VV N140 can be substituted although I don't know how much longer it will be available.

I have messed around with AA 5744 but need to do more work to get a clean burning load.

As I'm shooting these loads in a 1902 Webley and a Lee Speed I don't have to worry about regulation.

Graeme Wright's book is helpful on this cartridge. If you don't have access to a copy PM me and I'll give you his loads.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Oldbrit]
#231552 - 24/06/13 07:08 AM

Hello Oldbrit,

Thank you for the info. Yes, I do have Grame Wright's book. I have been using R15 with my 9.3x74R and have has good success. I expect I'll be trying it in this .375 at a starting load of about 45g with a Speer 270g Spire Point.

I've shown here a .375 x 2½" Nitro Express compared to a 38-55 Winchester. You will note that this .375 NE cartridge is loaded with a vintage 300g "Silver-Tip" just in case I need it for one of those "Vampire" deer.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 09:00 PM)

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231561 - 24/06/13 10:14 AM

Yet again you've come up with another very nice find!
Hopefully this one will be much easier to find the regulation load!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: AkMike]
#231576 - 24/06/13 08:22 PM

Hello AkMike,

Yes, I'm pretty happy with this unusual little rascal. I'm always been drawn to rifles that are "different" and "fun". I hope I can find out more about the history of why, and for whom, it was made.

As far as regulation goes, I'd like to think that Westley Richards wouldn't have put a small front bead, and a 5-leaf rear site (50 - 300 yards) on a rifle if it wasn't meant to shoot to those ranges.

I should know the answer to the regulation question 15 seconds after I fire the first pair over the chronograph.

If I look back at my history with short barreled rifles, I'm expecting velocity with a 270g bullet to be about 1700 fps. I built the rifle below in 1988, featured in Gun Digest that year, "Big Bore Bull Pup". (I looked a lot younger 25 years ago) Its overall length of 26-1/2" is 5" shorter than this W.R. It is 7mm-08 cal. and it lost about 25fps/inch (measured) as I shortened the barrel to its current 20" length.

(note: I won many High Power & Long Range Silhouette matches up to 600yds with my Bull Pup using both scope and iron sights)

I guess this makes the Westley Richards look a lot bigger.

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 09:01 PM)

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AkMike
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231578 - 24/06/13 09:50 PM

I've still got my copy of that Gun Digest!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: AkMike]
#231589 - 25/06/13 12:44 AM

HA!- Green Cover 42nd Annual Edition Eagle Head Scrimshawed Ivory gripped, engraved FIE's TXZ 75 on the front cover & Eagle Scrimshawed FIE Hombre (Colt Clone) on.

Good article.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Buchsemann
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: DarylS]
#231591 - 25/06/13 02:32 AM

Buckstix,

Nice find! I'm looking forward to seeing how it shoots; should be a lot of fun.

Had I been paying attention I might have snapped that little bugger up for myself:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=224483&an=0&page=2#Post224483

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=230423&an=0&page=0#Post230423

Good for you though, enjoy!

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Buchsemann]
#231592 - 25/06/13 02:35 AM

The Quick and the dead !!!

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: DarylS]
#231593 - 25/06/13 02:45 AM

Hello Daryl_S

Yes, that's the one. I never realized that I didn't have any color pictures of the bull Pup so I've updated my previous post with some color. Myrtlwood and Rosewood go good together.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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NitroX
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231597 - 25/06/13 03:51 AM

Quote:

... I'd like to think that Westley Richards wouldn't have put a small front bead, and a 5-leaf rear site (50 - 300 yards) on a rifle if it wasn't meant to shoot to those ranges.

I should know the answer to the regulation question 15 seconds after I fire the first pair over the chronograph.

I have always viewed the long range multi leaves on DR express rear sights as more of a "marketing" gimmick from a hundred years ago.

With that barrel that rifle was definitely designed for close quick shots and probably as a howdah rifle.

I am interested to see what velocities you get with the 'standard' load and how they compare to a full length barrelled rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: NitroX]
#231600 - 25/06/13 05:47 AM

From what I have read and from people I know, those that have tried the multiple leaves have found them to be quite accurate.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
#231608 - 25/06/13 09:05 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Well, here is my first group - 2-5/8" at 50 yds. and about 5-1/2" above point of aim. I used 45g of R15 with a 270 Hornady SP and WLR primers. Overall loaded length (picked at random) was 3.300" I think its a good starting point. The ave velocity was 1764 fps with a spread of only 20fps. In fact 4 of the 6 shots were within 6 fps.

This velocity was not too far off my estimate of 1700 fps.

I did try 2 each at 46g @ 1820 fps ave (it shot 1/2" higher) and 47g @ 1869 fps ave (it shot 1-1/4" higher and cases showed signs of "sticking" so 47g is too hot in this rifle)

Next load will be reduced to 44g and 43g and 42g, to see if the groups shoot lower and tighter. I will also try some 235g just for fun.

Now, as far as shooting goes, THIS LITTLE BUGGER IS FUN! Recoil is very manageable, and I could shoot it all day long.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231609 - 25/06/13 09:15 AM

Considering your location & possible uses, I'd even try a 220 Hornady FN. The .235 Speer SRN, might easily prove too tough at those lower speeds, considering it expanded poorly when driven at 2,000fps from a .375 Winchester M94 (Fadala's test).
The 220gr. Hornady was designed for the .375 Winchester and the ones I put into moose, showed wonderful expansion, weight retention as well as side to side penetration which included a shoulder on the impact side. Too, there is a 200gr. Sierra FN that might be interesting as well. I am wondering if the lighter bullets might give parallel separation to the barrels & lower impacts? Just a thought.
This is fun. It's even better is the speculation bears fruit.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: DarylS]
#231611 - 25/06/13 09:51 AM

Buck

I'd stick to the 3 next loads to see what they do first
before loading up the lower weight bullets.

The old rule of change one thing at a time !
plus it might give you an idea of where to go.

The 75% rule might not apply to this gun / cartridge
BUT who makes 200gn projectiles ?

Anyone ?

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AkMike
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
#231612 - 25/06/13 10:20 AM

Hawk shows a flat point at 200 grains.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
#231613 - 25/06/13 10:21 AM

Buck

Looking at yur target, I gather you are aiming for the middle of the circle ? It just looks like R3 AND L3 had a different sight picture when you fired.

Might I suggest putting a 1" white sticker (round)
on the black part at 6 o'clock and aiming for that ?

The 1" white circle is easily covered by the front bead
and the Big black circle will nestle into the V of the
sights, thereby making sure you have exactly the same sight picture each time.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
#231615 - 25/06/13 11:11 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Yes, very good observation. Actually, R1 L1 R2 L2 were fired first. I had loaded 6 rounds with that load, but initially only fired 4 of them. After testing the other loads, and after the rifle had cooled, I fired the last 2 rounds of that first load. I think I had learned a little better of the trigger control at that point, and they printed a tad different than the first 4 shots, albeit in the same group.

As far as aiming goes, the front bead fits nicely into the black ring with a sliver of white showing around the bead. My old eyes can't see a 1" white sticker at 50 yards.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231616 - 25/06/13 11:35 AM

Buck

Well the "sliver" of white" does the same thing so
not a problem.

You get used to looking at targets and being able
to pick things like different sight picture up.

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CptCurl
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231617 - 25/06/13 11:37 AM

Quote:

BUT who makes 200gn projectiles ?

Sierra.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: CptCurl]
#231632 - 25/06/13 06:28 PM

That would make a superb fast handing "monteria" rifle, most shots being 70 yards or less, usually under 50. How is the balance ?
best, Mike

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1240
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#231639 - 25/06/13 08:41 PM

Hello Mike_Bailey,

Quote:

That would make a superb fast handing "monteria" rifle,

Monteria are pigs, right?

Yes, I believe it would. It is very fast handling and it balances perfectly. The short barrels provide for a center of gravity almost exactly in the middle of the receiver. Carrying the rifle in the hand at this balance point, will make it very maneuverable here in Wisconsin's heavy brush.

And, the hefty weight of 8lbs 9oz, is just right to counteract the quickened swing of the shorter barrels. Its absolutely amazing and hard to put into words. You can handily bring the rifle to shoulder for a fast swinging shot - and yet the recoil is dampened by the weight to neutralize muzzle lift if a fast second shot is needed. Westley Richards must have had "balance" and "swing" in mind when they configured the length and weight of the barrels. I guess this would make sense, because a Customer that gets eaten by a Tiger, is not a repeat customer.

I told a friend at the club yesterday to close his eyes before I handed him the rifle. I told him to shoulder it. When I told him to open his eyes, his face turned from a questioning expression, into a big smile. He couldn't believe the muzzle was less than 8" beyond his left hand. As he re-shouldered it, again and again, and aimed it about, He said the "swing" and "balance" was nearly as nimble as his side-lock 28ga quail double, which only weighed 6 pounds.

I'm sure the deer in Wisconsin will be shaking in their hooves this fall.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1240
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231645 - 25/06/13 09:44 PM

Hello All,

As a follow-up, ...... I've been communicating via email with Westley Richards & Co. in England, in an attempt to obtain more detailed information about the history of my interesting little rifle. Since this rifle was built on an earlier numbered action, I was hoping to find the original purchaser's name. My thinking is that perhaps "he" later commissioned the work for this shorter barreled rifle through Saleh & Co.

I questioned if information was available for the earlier serial number (T7848) referenced in the original ledger entry for this rifle's serial number. (T9590) -

Quote:

"... The rifle T7848 was originally built as a .30-06 double rifle that was altered so that the action was used to make the .375 non ejector #T9590. It is unclear as to how advanced the original .30-06 rifle was before the alteration. These works were completed in 1925.
..."

I asked if rifle T7848 was ever shipped out of the Westley Richards Factory to a Customer? -

Quote:

"... I am afraid that the ledger is unclear on this. Lets assume not. ..."

I asked if any other rifles were built by Westley Richards with 16" barrels? -

Quote:

"... It is unlikely that we built many rifles with barrels this short. I would think that it was used as a back up rifle in a Howdah, just in case! ..."

This last statement from Westley Richards makes me think I might indeed have a "one-of-a-kind".

I will keep copies of all these additional communications from Westley Richards with the original Factory Documentation and Letter of Authenticity so that the provenance for this rifle is preserved.

I've watched enough Antique's Road Show to have learned that in some cases, the Provenance can more than double the valuable of the item.

.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Posts: 26943
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231651 - 26/06/13 12:20 AM

Good communication with Westley Richards, buckstix!

An interesting gun for sure and I agree - it will be a "smasher for deer" in the bush, once you get loads sorted out.

Lyman's and RCBS's cast bullets in 250 to 275gr. have flat noses and make good 'deer' bullets as well.

I have some commercial 310gr. with Rooster-red lube but don't know where they came from, ie; who made them. They'd also be a good hunting bullet, albeit slower and more deeply penetrating.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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FrankFarmer
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Reged: 06/08/06
Posts: 172
Loc: Florida USA.

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Buchsemann]
#231655 - 26/06/13 12:52 AM

Congratulations Buckstix, Beautiful rifle, great research, thank you for sharing! Don't forget to wear your silver cross for those deer hunts!

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doubleriflejack
.333 member

Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231660 - 26/06/13 04:38 AM

In my collection, I have a Westley Richards double, about same vintage, in same caliber. Also, I have several other British rifles in same caliber, some hammer doubles, but most hammerless; some regulated for 270 grain bullets; some regulated for 300 grain bullets. The best accuracy and regulation I ever got, for 270 grain bullet rifles, was using 40 to 43 grains of 4895, with dacron filler.

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231661 - 26/06/13 04:43 AM

This original cordite cartridge was loaded to shoot at velocity of just under 2,000 fps, but I often shoot handloads right at 2,000 fps with great results, using 4895---

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1240
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: doubleriflejack]
#231662 - 26/06/13 04:53 AM

Hello doubleriflejack,

I appreciate the info. Did the variable 40-43 grains of 4895 give 2000 fps in different rifles. In other words, did some rifles achieve 2000 fps with 40 grains, while others required 43 grains to get that velocity? Was this loading at acceptable pressures, giving "easy extraction"?

By the way. I did discover a drawback for using a rifle with such a short barrel. When you use a boat cushion to steady your rest, you have to make sure the end of the barrel extends beyond the cushion. Dah?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26943
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231674 - 26/06/13 01:08 PM

HA! - good thing your hat wasn't "in the line of fire"!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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savage458
.275 member

Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231694 - 27/06/13 02:46 AM

buckstix

Very interesting Bull Pup gun,a also am shooting Bull Pup, but mine is 219 Donaldson Wasp, made on "Baby Enfield" action for Harvey. I got it from his widow way back in early 70's. Gun is super accurate 1 rugged hole at 100 yrds, with Nosler bullets. She told me that Harvey used it in O-Games in Rome, i think in 1952 ? It has 15 power UNERTL scope. All lower parts hand made, and of course Baby Enfield cut-down and rewelded. Ever saw one like that ?

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buckstix
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Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: savage458]
#231770 - 28/06/13 06:38 AM

Hello savage458,

Never saw one like that. Do you have pictures?

I went to the range again today to test the WR Howdah again. I tried IMR 4895 instead of R15. Overall pressures were good. I was testing different seating depths, but half way through the testing I found I had mixed some shells and the results were inconclusive. Lucky for me the last 4 cartridges all had the same bullet seating depth so it looks like I'm making progress. Still shooting a little high and right, but getting better.

Also, velocities were "up" being 100 fps higher than the R15. Overall average vel. was 1886 fps. I'm really looking forward to the next outing. This little rifle is a "hoot" to shoot.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231772 - 28/06/13 07:03 AM

Individual groups look very good.

Hope you are able to bring the R down or L up.

That's good velocity out of such short barrels.

Re mixing ammo, it's a bugger isn't it !
Did that on a hunt once testing bullets.

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231801 - 28/06/13 06:30 PM

Monteria is boar, red deer, fallow and a hare if you are lucky

best

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1240
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#231840 - 29/06/13 08:01 AM

Hello All,

Update: On Tuesday June 25th I emailed Westley Richards & Co. to request that the letter of Authenticity be updated to my name. I also mentioned that although the "ledger copy" showed a 16" barrel length, the Letter of Authenticity did not address the barrel length. I suggested that since the 16" barrel length is very unique and a very rare feature of this rifle, perhaps this information should be included in the letter. They agreed.

And here today, Friday, 3 days later, I received the revised letter. That's a lot better service than we get from our U.S. Makers who take up to 3 months for Factory letters.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#231844 - 29/06/13 08:50 AM

buckstix,

That is some nice service from WR. I have to imagine that barrels as short as those on your little .375 weren't ordered all that often, though they seem like just the thing for a Howdah "rifle", so it was nice of WR to note such on the revised ledger.

I had to check it out. Digging around it appears "Monteria", pronounced Mon-te-rí-a, is a Spanish word translating to "chase hunt" or "The pursuit of game with dogs". In Wisconsin I believe that would limit you to bear and rabbits. Your little .375 could be seen as a bit much for bunnies but most certainly a handy arm to have on a Wisconsin black bear hunt.

As to the number you did on your boat cushion, got any duct tape? Those short barrels have me thinking that if your plans for this year's deer season include sitting in a fabric blind with your little English flame thrower you may want to pack a fire extinguisher.

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1240
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Buchsemann]
#232399 - 12/07/13 11:35 PM

Hello Buchseman,

I did some more shooting this week, (being mindful of the short barrel) with some 300g silver-tips.

Average muzzle velocity was 1835 fps. That's about 2250 ft-lbs of energy. That would make it a very credible back-up gun in India, and a reliable bear gun here in Wisconsin.

It shoots a little high at 50yds so I've been holding at 6 o'clock on the 5" bull. I wish my eyes were a little better because I think L3 was me.

In plotting the trajectory, 3" high at 50yds equals 4-1/2" high at 100yds and 2" low at 200yds, with 200yd energy still over 1500 ft-lbs.

The 6 o'clock hold works great for off-hand practice at bowling pins at 50yds. I've been averaging about 75% success. My best string has been 6 in a row.

BTW - A contact made on the "Indians for Guns" forum (India) who lives in Mumbia, (formerly Bombay) will be stopping in at M. Saleh & Co., (they still exist) to ask if they have any records or history of my rifle. I'm hoping to gain some insight as to who commissioned this unique piece.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
#232401 - 13/07/13 12:41 AM

There quite likely be a problem, I believe, with most jacketed bullets on this side of the pond. Unless they are designed for lever guns(like the 255gr. .38/55 bullets as-in Barnes originals, the 220gr. Hornady's and 200gr. Sierras,) they are not designed to expand much below 2,000fps, about 1,900fps minimum.

I recall that years ago, for Lions, the "Aluminum" cap on the .300gr. ST's were pried off to increase expansion. Nowadays, that old fairly heavy 'aluminum' cap has been replaced with something very much thinner. The last 300gr. ST factory loads I chronographed ran 2,474fps in a BRNO ZKK 602.

If there was an opportunity to expand at low speeds, I think a 235gr. Speer that was cup-pointed down to about 230 or 225gr. might work, as-would a standard 255gr. for the .38/55 in .375". For a heavier bullet, perhaps a 300gr. RN Hornady that was HP'd or cup-pointed might also work.

A centre-drill, makes for very easy 'cupping' on a lathe or small size. Chucking the bullet in the 3-jaw, then running the centre-drill in until the angle touches the jacket, then withdrawing the centre-drill leaves bullet so virtually identical weight, accurate and nicely HP'ed and cupped so they will expand at low speeds.

These bullets worked well for Rod after being sized down for use in a 9.3x57, at low speeds. Unaltered, even at 2,100fps impact speeds, they seemed too 'hard'.

Just a thought.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39804
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: DarylS]
#345995 - 20/10/20 06:09 PM

BTTT

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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