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buckstix
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Howdah you like this? Westley Richards .375 x 2½" w/16" bbls
      #231484 - 23/06/13 08:43 AM

Hello All,

Some of you may have seen the earlier posts on January 30th and May 24th about a Westley Richards .375 x 2½" Nitro Express with 16" barrels. When this rifle came up for sale on Guns International last week, I couldn't resist it. What a fun little rifle this is going to be. It tips the scales at a stout 8 pounds 10 ounces, and has an overall length of 32-7/8". That's 1-3/8" shorter than a Winchester Model 94 Trapper model with the same 16" barrel length.

The large Butt Plate and stock with a 14-1/2" LOP, means it wasn't meant for a kid. I'm betting this was an upgrade over a Howdah Pistol. I've researched high and low for Short Barreled Howdah Rifles, but find only Howdah Pistols. Some of those pistols had barrels nearly as long as this rifle. Some Howdah Pistols even had shoulder stocks attached making them a primitive form of a carbine. When used from the Howdah atop an elephant, this would have been much more controllable than a pistol, and a lot less cumbersome than a full length rifle in the confined space of the Howdah.



It has many very interesting features: Horn Forearm Tip, Horn Grip Cap, and Horn Butt Plate with the Westley Richards Logo. Super condition wood. Sling Eyes. One standing and 4 folding leaf rear sight, 50/100/150/200/300. Lots of original Case Color in protected areas, and a Bore as sharp and bright as any I've seen. Overall finish of the metal is a superb original "purplish-brown" that shows its character from use years ago. Nice overall Engraving with a "Buck Deer" on the bottom of the action, a "Crouching Tiger" on the bottom of the trigger guard, and a "Saber-Tooth Deer" on the back of the Lever. The only thing it had missing was a "Saddle-Ring". Easy to remedy.

When my brass gets here next week, I'm going to see how it shoots.

Has anyone out there worked up a .375 x 2½" load for 16" barrels?










.
.
.

And Oh Yes, .... now a Saddle Ring.
.
.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231485 - 23/06/13 08:54 AM



Nice pick up. I was wondering who got that.

Wasn't there a discussion on here or AR about it ?

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231486 - 23/06/13 09:34 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Yes, there was an original posting back in January, and an update in May when the provenance was obtained.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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CowboyCS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231493 - 23/06/13 01:13 PM

Nice find and a beautiful piece. Let's see, it has 16" barrels so the sights are about 12ish inches apart with leaves out to 300yards....when you get the load developed please let us know how it does with those extra leaves, I'd be especially interested in seeing how the 300yards leaf does with that short of a sight picture.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing

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Matabele
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: CowboyCS]
      #231497 - 23/06/13 05:07 PM

Incredible find, what a fantastic little rifle! Who did the saddle ring installation?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
      #231498 - 23/06/13 05:25 PM

That's a lot like Marrakai "Fatlady".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
      #231506 - 23/06/13 06:56 PM

Hello Matabele,

Quote:

Incredible find, what a fantastic little rifle! Who did the saddle ring installation?


Just for fun, I installed the Saddle-Ring myself, .... via Photo-Shop.



Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 08:58 PM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231510 - 23/06/13 09:42 PM

That little rifle should be heaps of fun. However, it's going to be a little difficult finding an elephant and all necessary tack.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ron_Vella
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: CptCurl]
      #231514 - 23/06/13 11:33 PM

An absolutely lovely original rifle. However, the purchaser certainly did not have howdah use in mind when he ordered multiple rear sights and that very fine front sight.

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kuduae
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #231516 - 24/06/13 12:07 AM

BTW, the animals engraved on the rifle: Your "Buck deer" on the bottom looks to me like a Chinkara aka Indian gazelle, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinkara
The "Saber tooth deer" on the toplever depicts a Musk deer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musk_deer
Both species are found in northern India.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: kuduae]
      #231517 - 24/06/13 12:32 AM

Hello Kuduae,

With each new purchase comes the desire to find out as much information as possible about its history. I too was surprised to learn that the "Vampire" looking deer engraved on the back of the lever, was not a slip of the engraver's chisel. There was a deer with horns engraved on the bottom of the receiver, a Tiger on the trigger-guard, but what the heck' was that on the lever? I actually asked the seller if the "Saber-Tooth" Deer was a joke, or just some strange scratches that made the deer look like it had "Fangs".

He said "no joke", these are real deer found in India, and directed me to this link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntjac.

After about an hour of searching other links on the NET, I put together these pictures, having learned something new that eluded me for 62 years.

Hello Ron Vella,

Perhaps the original owner of this rifle in India, didn't want to get too close when hunting this scarey looking species. That might account for the 5 leaf rear sight marked out to 300 yards. Its one thing to shoot at close range, face-to-face with a Tiger, but who would take a chance at getting attacked by a "Vampire Deer."






--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 08:59 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231520 - 24/06/13 01:09 AM

Buckstix, only two of your photos show Muntiac, the one at bottom left and bottom row middle/top. Muntiac have large facial glands in front of the eyes and the males bear small antlers on top of long skin covered bones. their tusks are smaller than those of Musk deer. Most of the photos you posted are in fact several subspecies of Musk deer. As neither the characteristic glands or antlers of Muntiac are shown in the engraving,but very prominent tusks, it depicts a Himalayan Musk Deer, Moschus Leucogaster, native to northern India too, IMHO.

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Oldbrit
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: kuduae]
      #231527 - 24/06/13 02:08 AM

Buckstix,

Here in the UK Muntjac were kept as ornamental park deer years ago and escaped into the wild. I live in rural Norfolk and I can see Muntjac roaming in the fields at the back of my house on a regular basis. Like all deer in the UK they have no natural predators and their rapidly increasing numbers are becoming a real problem. They have all the road sense of a drunk on a pogo stick and have caused many road accidents. Hunting would be the answer but British game laws, gun licensing laws and the proximity of housing nearly everywhere present real problems.

I love the gun and as a fellow 375 X 2½ user I'll be most interested in the loads you come up with.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Oldbrit]
      #231533 - 24/06/13 04:14 AM

Hello Oldbrit,

I know what you mean about cars meeting deer. Here in Wisconsin the deer / accidents total over 40,000. That's about 110 per day.

Since you are a .375 x 2½" shooter, do you have any suggestions for a place to start with a load. I'm thinking the faster burning powders would be preferred for such short barrels.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Matabele
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231535 - 24/06/13 04:41 AM

Quote:

Hello Matabele,

Quote:

Incredible find, what a fantastic little rifle! Who did the saddle ring installation?


Just for fun, I installed the Saddle-Ring myself, .... via Photo-Shop.





Haha, you got me good on that one!! I was having minor palpitations thinking how such an amazing little rifle had been defiled like that!

Would make a fantastic bushveld gun or close range pig thumper I'd think.

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 09:00 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
      #231537 - 24/06/13 05:06 AM


"Would make a fantastic bushveld gun or close range pig thumper I'd think."

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

I'd take it after Water buffalo where I had some
control over the closeness. At least once anyway !

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Matabele]
      #231545 - 24/06/13 05:36 AM

Hello Matabele

Quote:

Haha, you got me good on that one!! I was having minor palpitations thinking how such an amazing little rifle had been defiled like that!



I kinda wondered if I'd get any any responses showing that saddle-ring picture. I guess most readers just thought it was actually done.

It came about because a friend said; "All that needs now is a saddle-ring", So, ... I figured I'd see how it looked with one. I was surprised to find it looked so good. If I ever decide to go after Tigers on horseback, I just might actually add one.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231548 - 24/06/13 05:47 AM


buckstix

PM sent.

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Oldbrit
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231550 - 24/06/13 06:47 AM

Buckstix,

Most of my loading has been done with Reloder 15. 47 grains with a 270 gr cast GC bullet just about duplicates a factory load. 44 grs with a 300 gr cast GC works well.

I have found that VV N140 can be substituted although I don't know how much longer it will be available.

I have messed around with AA 5744 but need to do more work to get a clean burning load.

As I'm shooting these loads in a 1902 Webley and a Lee Speed I don't have to worry about regulation.

Graeme Wright's book is helpful on this cartridge. If you don't have access to a copy PM me and I'll give you his loads.

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Oldbrit]
      #231552 - 24/06/13 07:08 AM

Hello Oldbrit,

Thank you for the info. Yes, I do have Grame Wright's book. I have been using R15 with my 9.3x74R and have has good success. I expect I'll be trying it in this .375 at a starting load of about 45g with a Speer 270g Spire Point.

I've shown here a .375 x 2½" Nitro Express compared to a 38-55 Winchester. You will note that this .375 NE cartridge is loaded with a vintage 300g "Silver-Tip" just in case I need it for one of those "Vampire" deer.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 09:00 PM)

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AkMike
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231561 - 24/06/13 10:14 AM

Yet again you've come up with another very nice find!
Hopefully this one will be much easier to find the regulation load!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: AkMike]
      #231576 - 24/06/13 08:22 PM

Hello AkMike,

Yes, I'm pretty happy with this unusual little rascal. I'm always been drawn to rifles that are "different" and "fun". I hope I can find out more about the history of why, and for whom, it was made.

As far as regulation goes, I'd like to think that Westley Richards wouldn't have put a small front bead, and a 5-leaf rear site (50 - 300 yards) on a rifle if it wasn't meant to shoot to those ranges.

I should know the answer to the regulation question 15 seconds after I fire the first pair over the chronograph.

If I look back at my history with short barreled rifles, I'm expecting velocity with a 270g bullet to be about 1700 fps. I built the rifle below in 1988, featured in Gun Digest that year, "Big Bore Bull Pup". (I looked a lot younger 25 years ago) Its overall length of 26-1/2" is 5" shorter than this W.R. It is 7mm-08 cal. and it lost about 25fps/inch (measured) as I shortened the barrel to its current 20" length.

(note: I won many High Power & Long Range Silhouette matches up to 600yds with my Bull Pup using both scope and iron sights)





I guess this makes the Westley Richards look a lot bigger.



Edited by CptCurl (26/06/13 09:01 PM)

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AkMike
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231578 - 24/06/13 09:50 PM

I've still got my copy of that Gun Digest!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: AkMike]
      #231589 - 25/06/13 12:44 AM

HA!- Green Cover 42nd Annual Edition Eagle Head Scrimshawed Ivory gripped, engraved FIE's TXZ 75 on the front cover & Eagle Scrimshawed FIE Hombre (Colt Clone) on.

Good article.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Buchsemann
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: DarylS]
      #231591 - 25/06/13 02:32 AM

Buckstix,

Nice find! I'm looking forward to seeing how it shoots; should be a lot of fun.

Had I been paying attention I might have snapped that little bugger up for myself:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=224483&an=0&page=2#Post224483

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=230423&an=0&page=0#Post230423

Good for you though, enjoy!

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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