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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Bad Experience with a Gunsmith
      #231173 - 14/06/13 01:29 PM

It's been several years since I last posted here, and figured that I would check in on the forum. Unfortunately, the custom .333 rifle project I had planned has hit a major snag. After getting a nice action to build on--an unused Empire 98S--and sourcing barrels for it, and lots of emails with potential gunsmiths to do the work, I finally sent the action off to start the build. The gunsmith seemed agreeable to do the work, then he surprised me with his demand for a $3000 deposit to start work. I asked if I could pay in installments, to which he asked for $100 to send my action back to me, and forget the project. My emails since then have been unanswered, I'm guessing that I won't hear back from him or get my action back until the $100 is in his hands.
Maybe I'm naive since this is my first custom gun project, but I thought most all custom work was paid for in installments. The gunsmith's reaction came across as a slap in the face. I hope I can get my action back, but I don't know if I'll ever try to get a custom rifle project going again.

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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #231174 - 14/06/13 02:58 PM

It is not uncommon for a gunsmith to get stuck with a completed or partially completed project only to find the customer is not willing or not able to come up with the funds. So it is understandable that most will ask for a big deposit. However, any good gunsmith will identify his terms up front and restate them later if asked. He will also return your parts if you do not wish to use his services. It would cost only about $15 to ship an action back to you.

I would both email and snail mail the gunsmith advising that you are having UPS or FedEx issue a call tag for him to return the action to you. You can pay those companies to do that and they will pick it up at no cost to him. If he insists on any payment then you insist on getting both an invoice for work completed and a copy of your authorization to perform the work. He can hold the action for payment but only for legitimate charges. You are entitled to an invoice and he needs to produce something showing you requested to or authorized the work he performed. For example, you may have inadvertently agreed to a minimal service fee. If so, he needs to show that you did.

The bottom line is that he isn't happy with the payment plan you want. He should have explained costs and terms BEFORE you sent the action and at this point he should be bowing out gracefully and doing the right thing by sending your action back to you. Please PM me the gunsmith's name. I will keep it to myself but I just want to make sure that I don't deal with him.

--------------------
~

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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: Grenadier]
      #231176 - 14/06/13 04:47 PM

Grenadier, thanks for the reply. That's useful info to know. I was expecting to pay a deposit, just not that large. Since the project was estimated to take several years, I didn't think that paying in installments would be a problem. And demanding $100 to ship back my action--when it only cost me $45 USPS insured to ship to him--seemed quite rude. He hadn't done any work on it. Maybe it's a "consulting fee"? The whole experience has kind-of soured me on getting a custom rifle built.
If I have to send him a payment to get my action back, should I use a postal money order? I want to avoid any funny business.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #231177 - 14/06/13 04:56 PM


I'd find someone local to him to go pay him a visit
with the $100 and do it that way.

Between NE, AR and others, I am sure someone
must be reasonably close.

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231178 - 14/06/13 05:54 PM

333Jeffrey, when you start a custom project first get the invoice sorted, i.e. the total, lets say it is 15k USD, normally you will have to put up 30%. Normally you will have some idea of build time but this is not set in stone, lets say 3 years. Lots of custom projects get returned as the buyer hasnīt got the patience; for a good idea, see this link

http://www.chuckhawks.com/m-s_custom_rifle_hays.htm

This will give you an idea, apart from the severe pistol grip which I should have specced better the rifle is very good but I suspect most gunsmiths will want a decent deposit up front before they start the job. SDH wanted 30% on the .30-06 below, that took 4 years !!



http://www.chuckhawks.com/hughes-hagn_rifle.htm

best
Mike
p.s. you do have to be a bit careful with the invoice thing, a number of London gunmakers in the 1970īs quoted a price for a shotgun and then, when inflation went through the roof found they were making guns at a loss so used very plain wood and cut corners to try and bring the gun in at a "less loss making" deal which is why shotguns from that period from the "named" london makers are less valued. Mind you, given current interest rates that doesnīt seem much of a possibility.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27097
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #231184 - 15/06/13 02:19 AM

Years ago a fellow I know VERY well was building fine muzzle loading rifles as a business. Before taking on a project, he asked for and received 1/2 the final agreed to and quoted price as a down payment. The customer's name went to the bottom of the list and that money was used to order the parts (roughly $1,000.00 to $1,200.00 worth) and the remainder was kept as a down payment. Of course, once the parts were ordered and received, cancellation of the order would cause forfeiture of that down payment.

When that customer's name came up, he was adivsed to start saving money and the fellow built the rifle or smoothbore and when the customer would be notified to bring $$ to pay the remainder upon delivery.

The "down payments" usually amounted to $2,000.00 to $4,000.00 depending on what was ordered.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (15/06/13 10:07 AM)

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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: DarylS]
      #231188 - 15/06/13 02:44 AM

At this point, I just want to get my action back. The gunsmith stopped replying to my emails after demanding the $100 for it. Just to be clear, no final price was ever given for the work, nor was a rough estimate given before he asked for the $3000.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #231194 - 15/06/13 08:05 AM

It's time to name names here.

If the guy is asking for the $100 to try to cover his time up to now it's likely fair for you to pay him. Sure you should have arrived at an estimate or schedule of costs before engaging in a deal, and you own at least a portion of that responsibility.

Get square with him - and if you need mediation in order to simply make contact, stating his name here and now might lubricate that process. He deserves a voice in the conversation too anyway.

There's no doubt that the client/vendor relationship has soured. Learn from this experience and go forward, either to another builder or on a search for a complete rifle -- but do reflect and learn from this deal.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tophet1
.400 member


Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: tinker]
      #231195 - 15/06/13 08:33 AM

I'd pay the $100 and be happy to get the action back and learn from the experience. It seems there were two different expectations here.

I am just about to pick up Custom Rifle #3 (from the same gunsmith) and if it shoots as well as the first two I will be a very happy man. I usually provide most parts and pay 40-50% of the final cost up front. Gets me higher up the queue too.

There is nothing like picking up the rifle when finally finished. It makes the costs, wait and anticipation well worth it.

You are getting your dream, not some manufacturers interpretation of what you need.

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: tophet1]
      #231196 - 15/06/13 09:28 AM

G'Day Fella's,

333 Jefferey, I do a bit engineering/machining and gunsmithing work and I learnt a long time ago, there are basically Two Types of Customers! The ones that can afford to pay for the work, and those that can't!!!

I only recently done some work for a person that I thought could afford to pay for the work but I was wrong, and I was out of pocket by $550.00 in unpaid wages!
As a mate of mine told me later, "He has a Champagne Taste but only a Beer Budget"!!!
It goes without saying, he won't be having any other work done by me, until this amount is payed up front, and even then.....???

So please remember, that most Service Providers have learn't the hard way, and if you want to get their attention, put lots of currency in their hand, up front!!!

Hope that helps and good luck with the new rifle build!

Doh!
Homer

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: Homer]
      #231197 - 15/06/13 10:18 AM


And if dealing with anyone doing work, put it in writing what is being done, the $$$$ AND especially with gunsmiths, when it will be completed by, that way it is clear to everyone
on both sides of the fence.

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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231208 - 16/06/13 06:17 AM

Homer, I don't apologize to folks that don't think my money is good enough for them.
As a consolation to myself, I just picked up a 1953 M70 300H&H, for a heckuva lot less than what Mr. Wiebe was asking for as a deposit. He coulda had that money, but he chose to be rude and disrespectful. Now he will have none.

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tophet1
.400 member


Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #231209 - 16/06/13 07:11 AM

Quote:

I just picked up a 1953 M70 300H&H,



Photos requested please.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: tophet1]
      #231213 - 16/06/13 09:56 AM


Seem to be quite a few early Mod 70's coming onto the market
in the US.

And also some lefties.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39992
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231222 - 16/06/13 03:19 PM

Its pretty standard to be asked for a deposit when commissioning a custom order firearm.

If a client is unable to pay the deposit it may mean the client will have trouble with the payment down the line.

Gunsmiths are commercial businesses and it isn't for free receiving and sending firearms. Most Aussie gunshops charge similar fees for sending and receiving firearms. The cost isn't just postage or freight cost, but the cost of picking up a firearm, unpacking it, assessing it, re-packaging it, arranging to re-send it, plus the postage or freight fees.

A lot of non-gunsmith businesses (eg camera repairs, all sorts of repair services) charge a minimum fee just to issue a quotation, which is payable even if the service is not accepted, but not payable if the quotation is accepted. There are reasons why businesses have a minimum fee for quotations.

On the other hand, while I understand the need for a deposit to ensure the customer is serious and also cover upfront costs, supplies, and some hourly work, I also think a schedule of payments based on actual work performed should be part of a job as well. It is ridiculous that most of these jobs take three to four years to complete. Sometimes even simple gunsmithing work it takes eighteen months to do. With most the time the firearm sitting on the rack gathering dust?

333Jeffery

Good luck with the "new" .300. I hope it works out for you.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (16/06/13 03:30 PM)

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dracb
.300 member


Reged: 28/02/13
Posts: 133
Loc: British Columbia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: NitroX]
      #231242 - 17/06/13 07:17 AM

I hear all of you talking about how the gunsmith has to ask for a deposit to be sure he does not get screwed, but I had it work the other way. Forty years ago when I was a graduate student I had a great desire to have a custom made 54 caliber Hawken rifle. My wife bless her heart decided to buy one for me. We arranged it with the gunsmith, made the substantial down payment he asked for and agreed to the construction schedule. Despite letters to him asking for progress reports, the next time I heard from him was 20-25 years latter when he sent his geologist brother to me to ask for a job. He obviously knew where I was. The gunsmith is still working. I have from time to time, mostly when I see his name in print, wondered if he has changed his business practices.

--------------------
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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pjaln
.375 member


Reged: 08/06/06
Posts: 711
Loc: massachusetts ,U.S.A.
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: dracb]
      #231364 - 20/06/13 12:58 PM

i have had 3 custom guns built ,,something i would never do again ,,besides they depreciate as soon as you take delivery..paul

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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: dracb]
      #231365 - 20/06/13 01:04 PM

Mr. Wiebe finally contacted me to explain his position on the matter. I can't help but think that a little pressure from the online community encouraged him to reply. Basically, he does not like installment payments. He wants most of the money for materials upfront to prevent getting stiffed by the customer. I can appreciate this, and wish that he would have told me this to begin with. Still, $3000 is a heckuva deposit, and I will be getting my action back. Hopefully intact.

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tophet1
.400 member


Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Bad Experience with a Gunsmith [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #231368 - 20/06/13 03:28 PM

In my experience with 'entry level' custom rifles, that sounds pretty much the norm for accepting work from clients.

Custom rifles don't always appreciate in value. Even bespoke firearms from high end London gun shops have different values (to those in the 'know') depending on who did the work and where the components came from.

From what I understand from American gun literature, Mr Wiebe is very popular and a high end gunsmith, able to command high end fees. In Australia we call it 'working with golden tools'. It costs golden money.

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