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kumpe
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Reged: 18/04/13
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Loc: Sweden
Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS)
      #230813 - 03/06/13 06:01 AM

First post for me in this forum, and I would like to start by thanking everyone for writing such entertaining and informative threads, especially in my case regarding the Mannlicher Schönauer 1910, which I recently came to own. Without this forum I would be completely lost.
Please bear with me for a quick introduction before my questions;

I have recently been given an Mannlicher Schönauer 1910 in the 9,5x57MS caliber. It was given to me by my father, who long ago inherited it from his grandfather.
It a full stock in great condition, and the only modification is a small silver plaque embedded in the stock with my great grandfathers name engraved on it. However, it has once been "disabled" due to Swedish gun laws (when my great grandfather died no one in my family had permits to own firearms) and this was done by welding a bolt into the chamber. When my father got his permits in order he left the rifle to a gunsmith to remove the bolt. According to my father, the gunsmith then used something similar to a dentist drill to remove the residue from the welding. My father only used it a couple of times after that in the 80's, and since then it has been retired to his gun closet.
It was recently given to me because my father had not fired it for 20 years or so, and has always had a hard time finding ammunition for it.
I recently started handloading. I'm still a novice, but starting to learn a trick or two. Therefore the rifle was passed on to me, to see if I could start making ammunition and maybe even use it for hunting in the future.

This is how far I've come at this point. I have, after many more or less failed attempts, started forming cases from S&B 30-06 brass, which luckily is not hard to find here, people throw it away like trash. These cases works like a charm, and after some experimenting with loads I recently got to try it out for real on the range. It was actually the first time I used iron sights, and I was pleasantly surprised when I got around 2" groups at 100 yards with an occasional flyer or two.
I am using the .375 Hornady Interlock 270gn RN, however, I am only getting velocities up towards 2000 fps before cases start to grip the chamber really hard, the bolt then needs a serious beating to open, and you can clearly see some markings in the brass from what I can only assume to be leftovers from the welding I mentioned before.
I'm not completely sure that the welding damage is the only reason that the case gets stuck when only achieving such low speed, since I discovered another odd thing while developing a load.
I first tried, as recommended by another forum, to fireform 9,3x57 cases by fitting a bullet to have contact with the rifling. This is not possible, the chamber seems to be too long to do this.
I fitted a bullet loosely and chambered it, and it did not even touch the rifling. I did a (highly unscientific) measurement with a cleaning rod, and concluded that the bullet have about 1-2mm "free flight" before hitting the rifling.

Does my rifle have an abnormally large chamber? Could a large chamber cause a loss in performance that can explain the low speed even though the cases indicate high pressure?

My other question is; could a competent gunsmith even out the chamber? My guess from looking at the cases is that the aforementioned gunsmith took to much material out at some places in the chamber, and too little at other places. I imagine that fixing the spots where there is too much material won't be a problem, but how about where material needs to be "added", is this even possible?
Will it be worth trying, or is it ruined?

I apologize in advance if I use some weird/incorrect technical terms, this is my first time writing about these sort of things in English.


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Igorrock
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kumpe]
      #230816 - 03/06/13 06:27 AM

I´m not owner of 9,5x57 MS but IMO appromately 2000 fps is a quite good speed for 270 gr bullet in this caliber. Mannlicher Schönauer ís quite light rifle and more speed gives just more recoil.

With those other questions I suppose that you just seek a skillfull gunsmith and ask him to check yours rifle. It´s fine rifle with fine caliper and deserves a specialist. For example P-O Stenmark is very good guy and I think you´ll find more options when discussing in Robsoft.nu.

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kumpe
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: Igorrock]
      #230818 - 03/06/13 06:48 AM

Thanks for the tip, and yes, I know there are other forums where I can get answers to some of these questions. However, there seems to be a lot of MS1910-specific knowledge here. I thought maybe someone had encountered the problems with chamber size before.
And regarding the speed, yes it would be a good speed if I could achieve it without problems. But as soon as I reach these speeds I need to use a good dose of violence to reload, and needless to say I can't have that if I ever want to use it for hunting.

Edited by kumpe (03/06/13 06:49 AM)


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HendrikNZ
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kumpe]
      #230819 - 03/06/13 06:59 AM

My 1910 has a similar 1+ mm jump to the rifling when using reformed 9.3x57 brass, and as far as I know my chamber is pretty standard. I'm shooting 235grn Speer and 250 Grn Taipan bullets but have yet to chrony them

Edited by HendrikNZ (03/06/13 07:03 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: HendrikNZ]
      #230820 - 03/06/13 08:16 AM

I do not have a 9.5X57, although in working with 9.3x57 I had in a Model 96-type action in a Husqvarna, I found as you did, a long leade or throat. This is common for these rounds which I believe originally were chambered this way for fairly long straight-sided bullet of round nosed shape.

I do not know why your brass is ticking with such light seeming loads.

Are you sure it's a 9.5x57 and not a 9.3x57?

As far as I've seen, the 9.5x57 has a greater capacity than the 9.3x57 - ie: less slope in the case & according to COTW, is virtually what we would call an "Imroved" case, with it's .460" shoulder and .470" head - .005" taper per side. This means the 9.5x57 should be out producing the 9.3 by a considerably amount even if chambered in the same weaker model 96 action.

This isn't happening for you. Why?

Even factory 9.3x57 ammo runs 2,050fps with a 286gr. bullet at a measely 34,000CUP - hardly any pressure at all, when you consider the action is also chambered for rounds that produce over 52,000CUP breech pressure.

According to COTW, factory 9,.5x57 runs 270gr. at 2,150fps.
COTW lists 44gr. IMR3031 as delivering a 270gr. bullet at 2,150fps.

Why your rifle appears to be producing more pressure than it should, I do not know. Perhaps you are using too fast a burning powder, a powder that produces maximum pressures before producing what should be even sub-normal speed?

My 9.3x57 makes 2,300fps with the 270gr. Speer, and 2,200fps with 293gr. TUG's along with 2,175fps with 300's.

Your rifle should beat all of these velocities with same weight bullets when used with modern powders. I use either H4895 or BLC2. In my rifle, the pressure is actually quite low, as the case shows less than .0005" (1/2 thou) expansion at the web. The bolt can be raised with the little finger with no more pressure than lifting the bolt after the rifle has been dry fired (no ctg. case).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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pondoro62
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: DarylS]
      #230822 - 03/06/13 09:45 AM

Kumpe, I think P O Stenmark or Hans Englund, Bøssmakaren AB, Klippan - Skåne can sort this out for you, Hans mounted a controlled-claw (hakmontage) on my M1910..

As for chamber, I have only fired new Kynoch/Kynamco in mine and it seems I get symptoms of cartride separation, dont yet know if the ammo is a bit off spec or if the chamber is....will look into this and try to resolve it by handloading..

The 9,5x57MS is a nice brush cartridge, I will use mine on wild boar and perhaps in Africa..

The cartridge still has a small following in RSA according to Pierre van der Walt..


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Marrakai
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: pondoro62]
      #230835 - 04/06/13 12:08 AM

kumpe:
Might we inquire as to the barrel length of your 1910 ?
You stated it is full-wood stock, does this mean a carbine?
Short barrels might sacrifice 150fps or more compared with the velocities quoted by others above.
My 1903 carbine with 17.7 inch barrel shoots the 160gr 6.5mm bullet at ~1980 fps with factory-equivalent loads, well below the velocity quoted for the rifle.

Also, finding a gunsmith with a 9.5x57 finishing reamer, and giving the chamber a quick tidy-up is a potential fix. It is possible that only a small high-spot could cause stiff extraction.
If it was mine, I wouldn't hesitate to polish-out the chamber with a "flapper" on an electric drill or dremel. Baby-steps though, can't put that metal back!

The cartridge-case separation mentioned above is likely to be from excess headspace, I have found this not to be uncommon in the MS. Protruding primers after firing (on the cases that don't separate) is a give-away. The easy fix for a hand-loader is to neck-expand up to ~10mm with a tapered expander, then push a new shoulder down with the 9.5 sizing die but stopping short of the old shoulder position. Trial and error with the first couple of cases to give a very slight resistance when closing the bolt will determine the new shoulder position. Then load them up and fire-form with full loads. Neck-anneal, then neck-size-only for subsequent reloads, but be prepared to push the shoulders down slightly again when chambering resistance begins to occur.

Bit long-winded, apologies. Hope this info is of some use.

Love the 1910 9.5 Mannlicher, been having quite a bit of fun in the field with mine...


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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kumpe
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: Marrakai]
      #230841 - 04/06/13 03:56 AM

Marrakai: It has a 23.5" barrel. Don't worry about getting long-winded, I'm happy for all the info I can get. I no longer have headspace issues, since I abandoned the 9,3x57 brass. My only problem now is getting the speed up without the case sticking in the chamber.
Don't think I will be comfortable taking my Dremel to the chamber, will probably find a gunsmith to do it for me.
I really hope I can get this rifle to work, I love shooting it and i think it would be a perfect for boar hunting. Wish I had it last week when I stalked a male for half an hour with my twice as heavy .308...


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DarylS
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kumpe]
      #230842 - 04/06/13 04:41 AM

No Dremel!!!!!!
Does one of these 'tight' cases have a 'bright' spot on it.

One other cause of chamber problems can be if the bridge is drilled and tapped with the hole being too deep and either protruding into the chamber or pushing thin metal into the chamber, then it reverses when a round is fired, creating a divot in the chamber wall. If there is a bright spot showing this, have a close look at the top surface of the chamber. You may have to take the barreled action off the stock to check this.

As Marrakai says, protruding primers or case head separation ONLY happens with a headspace problem - either the brass or chamber is at fault.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kumpe
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: DarylS]
      #230844 - 04/06/13 04:56 AM

Don't know exactly what you mean by "bright spot", but I can always see two markings on the case, one is a small indentation clearly caused by some "extra material" in the chamber. The other one is a bulge, only barely visible to the naked eye. Both are near the base.
And just to clarify, I don't have problems with protruding primers or case head separation.


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DarylS
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kumpe]
      #230862 - 05/06/13 12:21 AM

There is normally a slight bulge (actually up to about .006") at the web (about 3/8" above the base). This is where the brass of the base thins into the case body. This bulging leaves the base smaller in diameter than it is at the bulge.

This less diameter of the base itself might appear indented, I suppose, to someone not sure exactly what they are looking at.

Does loaded ammunition freely chamber and extract without being fired?

Does ammunition loaded in fired brass freely chamber and extract?

Does just-fired brass freely chamber and extract?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kumpe
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: DarylS]
      #230865 - 05/06/13 02:35 AM

Daryl S: The bulge I'm talking about doesn't go all the way around the case, it's more of a "bump", so I don't think it's caused by normal case expansion. Also, the bulge and indentation is both the same distance from the base, on the same half of the case if you understand what I mean.
And after finding some better tools to examine the chamber I found some really ugly scratches and markings near the entrance of the chamber that seems to fit the pattern on the fired cases.

To answer you other questions; yes, loaded ammunition chambers without problem, fired brass does not, unless speed was below 1900fps.

Anyway, I have decided to find a capable gunsmith to even out the chamber before I go any further, it feels like this rifle is worth the time and money.
Thank you all for your answers!


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kumpe]
      #230897 - 06/06/13 06:59 AM

I have a 9,5x57 M.Sch. and I have used .30-06 cases to make ammo, (and 9,3x57 Mauser). No problems there. I use a set of long tapered expanders that I got off CH-4D tool and die company. This expands the neck, in stages, so that there's no neck splits.

It's not a bad idea to expand the neck slightly oversize, then use the FL die to establish a new false shoulder, (a little step in the neck). Move the FL die down 1/8th turn at a time and check at each 1/8th turn if the bolt will close on it. When you can just close the bolt, but still feel a very LIGHT resistance as the bolt is closed, you have eliminated most of the headspace. The case will form a new shoulder where the small step, the false shoulder, was on the neck. It might be that the FL die is all the way to the original shoulder, in which case there will be no false neck. Hope this all makes sense. Your brass will last longer if you do this, to get the die set up right, because the brass expands much less rearward and this stretching is what eventually causes head separations. You might need to repeat the process with the reformed brass to get the FL die setting just right. You now have brass that's perfect for your chamber, but only your chamber. It might not now fit another M1910.

To establish if the chamber is oversize, you could simply measure the fired case diameters, at various points, and then compare with the re-sized case when it comes out of the F-L die. There will be some differences, of course, but are they excessive compared to other cartridges? Also measure the fired case at various points, then roll it 90 degrees and measure again to see how round the chamber is.

Without looking at my reloading log, 2,000 Ft/sec sounds OK, even with the longer barrel, but there should not need to be any forcing of the bolt. Different powders will have different speeds and pressures, (meaning, the case might stick less or more), but don't expect 2,500 ft/sec or anything like that. Remember, this cartridge first appeared in 1910. Hodgdon's H4895 works well for me in my long-barrelled 9,5x57mm using 260 grain Nosler accubonds. But beware, some 9,5x57 M. Sch. don't feed pointed bullets well.

Regarding bullet jump, again, that's quite normal for that period. Cartridge manufacture was not all that standardized then and so it would have been safer to have a longer jump. Also, most bullets today are more streamlined, so they fit deeper into the lead before they touch it. The idea of "touching the lands" is to make the case fire-form evenly so that it's a good fit in the chamber. Personally, I don't like doing this, because of the pressure involved. Instead, I use a tool called a Hornady concentricity tool. This straightens the bullet so there is just 1 thou runout. When I set the FL die and the bullet concentricity right, the case fire-forms much better in the chamber. However, I wouldn't rush out and buy one just to achieve this, unless you want to of course. The concentricity tool certainly helps accuracy.

I have a friend who nearly sold his grandfather's shotgun but I talked him out of it and now he's grateful. A rifle is a pretty nice heirloom.


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kumpe
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #230946 - 07/06/13 04:58 PM

Kiwi_bloke: Yes, 2000 Ft/s is OK, but if I'm not mistaken Hornady recommends 2000 Ft/s as minimum for the Interlock 270 grain RN, and I have a feeling I'm well below that at 100 yards out or so. I'm not expecting too much, but getting up towards 2150 would be nice.
And yes, you shouldn't need to force open the bolt at that speed, but I'm now convinced that it's the welding damage that causes this. Will try to even out some of the worst spots in the chamber myself during the weekend.
A lighter bullet could also be an option if I can find one that works. My rifle is one of the ones you mentioned that cannot feed pointed bullets. The magazine locks up completely and has to be taken apart to even get them out.
One thing is clear, the rifle is not going anywhere, it's staying in the family. Too bad though that our crappy gunlaws here in Sweden severely limits the amount of guns you can own. You really don't want a rifle taking up a place in your gun cabinet if you can't use it...


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Brento
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MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #235015 - 02/09/13 09:10 PM

Hi All

I have also been luck enough to inherit a 9.5 x 57 MS 1910 from my Grandfather. The rifle was originally bought to shoot lions with in Southern Rhodesia. My Grandfather carried and used this rifle in the Zambezi Valley in the 1950's whilst working on the Kariba Dam project. I bought this rifle over with me to Australia over 4 years ago and have aquired a set of CH4 dies and neck expanders. My reloading and case forming has up to this point been mainly trial and error, with information sourced from the internet and this forum in particular.

I am using Winchester 3006 cases to create my cases, which seem to work well. As far as reloading goes I have been using 46 and 47 gr AR2206H behind Hornady 270 gr spire points. I do not know the velocity of these loads, but there are no signs of pressure with the 47 gr. thinking this maybe around 2200 ftps? I have recently loaded up some Speer 235 gr with 47 to 49 gr, but yet to test them at the range in Brisbane. Apparently from what I have read 49.5 gr IMR 4895 potentially gives around 2400 fps from the rifle (mine is the rifle not the carbine)?

Does anyone have any more information/experience with loads for the 9.5?

Cheers


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DonZ
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Re: MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: Brento]
      #235016 - 02/09/13 10:53 PM

I can't help with the load data, but to save time creating the cases, you might try these guys:

http://www.qual-cart.com/375%20cal.htm

Oops... just noticed you're in Australia. Shipping might get expensive!

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kumpe]
      #235017 - 03/09/13 02:17 AM

2,000fps load with a 270gr. bullet produces VERY mild pressure in that case with most ANY powder that would be used. Even my Model 96 9.3x57, which has a smaller capacity case, produces 2,300fps with that weight bullet and still low pressure - with no adverse pressure signs what-so-ever.

When the pressures get up to normal operating ranges, the 'bulge' at the web will run more evenly around the case - normally, unless your chamber is cut improperly and "all wonky".

Marks, ie: scratches in the chamber must be removed, unfortunately, this can only be done by removing material, making the chamber even larger, to the extent of the depth of the scratching.

The best case scenario would be to set the barrel back one full turn (about 1/10"), then re-chamber it to adjust the headspace. This would probably eliminate the scratches - IF they are at the web location right now.

Scratches on the body of the chamber indicates a case head was likely blown off due to over FL sizing (creating excessive headspace with THAT case) or excessive headspace in the chamber & normally FL sized cases.

To remove the stuck case, someone who should not have touched this rifle got in there with a screw driver or too large a tap, and scored the chamber walls.

When pressures get up to the normal operating range, the brass will likely expand into the scratches and refuse to extract normally.

Just a guess on what's happening with that rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kuduae
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: DarylS]
      #235019 - 03/09/13 04:18 AM

Brento, imho I have some experience with the 9.5x57M-S aka .375 rimless NE. See this old thread:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=173003&an=0&page=5#Post173003

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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kumpe
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Loc: Sweden
Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kuduae]
      #237201 - 28/10/13 06:14 AM

Just a quick update, if anyone is interested.
After long consideration I decided to tackle the problem myself. And now, after many hours of carefully grinding down the markings in the chamber by hand, many hours at the reloading bench, and many trips to the range I finally had some real progress.
Today I squeezed just above 2200 feet/s out of that old rifle with a 270 grain RN bullet. Using a slower burning powder seemed to help keep pressure down.
I still have intermittent problems with the bolt sticking a bit, but nowhere near the way it was in the beginning when I first wrote this post. I could probably squeeze a bit more out of it, but I don't feel it's necessary. If everything goes as planned, this Saturday it will be my short-range/backup rifle on a boar hunt. This will be the first time this rifle is used for hunting for almost three decades.
Thank you everyone for your input, this forum is invaluable when it comes to Mannlicher Schönauer info, and it's thanks to you.


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xausa
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: kumpe]
      #237226 - 29/10/13 06:23 AM

Quote:

However, it has once been "disabled" due to Swedish gun laws (when my great grandfather died no one in my family had permits to own firearms) and this was done by welding a bolt into the chamber. When my father got his permits in order he left the rifle to a gunsmith to remove the bolt. According to my father, the gunsmith then used something similar to a dentist drill to remove the residue from the welding. My father only used it a couple of times after that in the 80's, and since then it has been retired to his gun closet.




No one else seems to be concerned about this part of the narrative. I can't imagine a responsible gunsmith "remov(ing) the bolt" from the chamber of a rifle into which it had once been welded. I don't know whether the barrel of this rifle was removed from the action when this welding took place, but in any event, exposure to that kind of heat would seem to me inevitably to wreak havoc with the heat treatment, and therefore the strength of at least the barrel and possibly both barrel and action.

I am assuming that whatever was done to this rifle to incapacitate it must have been done with the idea that at some time in the future it would be restored to functioning condition. This would mean that instead of welding, some less destructive means of securing the bolt in the chamber might have been used (brazing, silver soldering?).

I have known gunsmiths in this country who refused to work on Springfield rifles which had had the barrels plugged and then "tacked" to the receiver to prevent their removal, for fear that this slight exposure to the heat of welding might have permanently weakened the receiver. I think that this is going a bit far, but in cases such as those replacement barrels were readily available and no thought was given to restoring the plugged chamber to a useable condition.

If I were in the situation that kumpe finds himself in, I think I would give serious thought to replacing the barrel. .375 is not an unusual caliber for a barrel blank, and surely the proper reamers are still available.

I am sure that someone will respond to my concern by saying that obviously the re-activation worked, since kumpe is using the rifle with no difficulty other than a rough/oversized chamber. That is a valid point, but my concern is that someone else, reading of kumpe's experience will try to follow his example and come to grief.


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kumpe
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Re: Newbie questions about MS1910 (9,5x57MS) [Re: xausa]
      #237230 - 29/10/13 07:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

However, it has once been "disabled" due to Swedish gun laws (when my great grandfather died no one in my family had permits to own firearms) and this was done by welding a bolt into the chamber. When my father got his permits in order he left the rifle to a gunsmith to remove the bolt. According to my father, the gunsmith then used something similar to a dentist drill to remove the residue from the welding. My father only used it a couple of times after that in the 80's, and since then it has been retired to his gun closet.




No one else seems to be concerned about this part of the narrative. I can't imagine a responsible gunsmith "remov(ing) the bolt" from the chamber of a rifle into which it had once been welded. I don't know whether the barrel of this rifle was removed from the action when this welding took place, but in any event, exposure to that kind of heat would seem to me inevitably to wreak havoc with the heat treatment, and therefore the strength of at least the barrel and possibly both barrel and action.

I am assuming that whatever was done to this rifle to incapacitate it must have been done with the idea that at some time in the future it would be restored to functioning condition. This would mean that instead of welding, some less destructive means of securing the bolt in the chamber might have been used (brazing, silver soldering?).

I have known gunsmiths in this country who refused to work on Springfield rifles which had had the barrels plugged and then "tacked" to the receiver to prevent their removal, for fear that this slight exposure to the heat of welding might have permanently weakened the receiver. I think that this is going a bit far, but in cases such as those replacement barrels were readily available and no thought was given to restoring the plugged chamber to a useable condition.

If I were in the situation that kumpe finds himself in, I think I would give serious thought to replacing the barrel. .375 is not an unusual caliber for a barrel blank, and surely the proper reamers are still available.

I am sure that someone will respond to my concern by saying that obviously the re-activation worked, since kumpe is using the rifle with no difficulty other than a rough/oversized chamber. That is a valid point, but my concern is that someone else, reading of kumpe's experience will try to follow his example and come to grief.




I appreciate your concern, and agree with what you're saying. You probably shouldn't do something like this without knowing what damage might have been caused to the rifle. In this case however, you assumed correctly. The "disabling" of this rifle was done under supervision of my father by a competent gunsmith with the intention of some day restoring it. I'm confident it was done in a way that didn't cause any damage.


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