Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: 404 magnum Schüler

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
404 magnum Schüler
      #230765 - 02/06/13 05:01 AM

http://www.municion.org/404/404Schuler.htm

Who know this cartridge ?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230768 - 02/06/13 05:23 AM



A page of the A.Schüler catalog . It's the cartridge at lower left . According to the recherche of Mr. Ziegenhahn in Zella-Mehlis near Suhl , is this cartridge very similar to the 416WM without a belt and with a rebated rim like the 12,7x70 . Very interesting !

www.Ziegenhahn.de

Edited by grandveneur (02/06/13 05:47 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230798 - 02/06/13 09:43 PM

grandveneur

I only know it exist, never see a rifle or collector ammo for sale. it looks like you can make brass from 416 rigby cases. have mister Ziegenhahn a chamber reamer? the new made brass with the Zi-Di headstamp seems to indicate this





the brass for this new made cartridge is probably made by horneber.

the case looks very potent like a 404 Jeffery on stereoids. do you have a serious interest for making a rifle for this forgotten magnum and dont like your 11,2x72 Schüler anymore?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
      #230803 - 03/06/13 12:06 AM

No , for hunting i like the safe side ! I prefer my 500 Schüler and certainly my 11,2x72 Schüler .

If i can find a old one in this caliber i take it , but not sure that some such rifles was built .

I suppose that Mr. Ziegenhahn has a chamber reamer and a gauge because he had built a test rifle . Initially he hed only a old cartridge found in the ruins of the Schüler factory . After the measurement he was surprised that this cartridge is very similar with the big Weatherby cartridges like the 378, 416 and 460 . P1 basis diameter is 14,76mm for the 404 Schüler and 14,78mm for the big Weatherby cartridges . The only one 0,02mm difference was not appreciable . The belt and the normal rim were not a problem .

Mr. Ziegenhahn saw no market for this cartridge . That's my opinion too , we have enough good cartridges of this caliber . But it remains a open question , why the big Weatherby cartridges have this size , from a Rigby cartridge or from a prey object of the WWII ? The US Army ( Gen.Patton ) was in Suhl !

Edited by grandveneur (03/06/13 12:29 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230806 - 03/06/13 01:53 AM

interesting story, I will send Ziegenhahn an e-mail and ask if they sold collector cartridges. there was no market for a new cartridge for decades because we have the 404 in the M 98 and nobody realy need another round but at least in the last twenty years we have see a battalion of new wildcats between .400 and .458. the post war german three groups ammo concept of some standard caliber, special caliber and obsolete caliber that will be in production only for some years was not realy bad but it did not work in the fatherland alone never mind other countrys. no wonder for me the 10,75x73 aka 404 was the biggest of the special cartridges.

for the gentleman with the taste for something special the 404 schüler magnum could have some merit's today.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (03/06/13 01:55 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1652
Loc: Finland
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230807 - 03/06/13 01:54 AM

Quote:

But it remains a open question , why the big Weatherby cartridges have this size , from a Rigby cartridge or from a prey object of the WWII ? The US Army ( Gen.Patton ) was in Suhl !


Those calibers both have one factor in common; they have designed for m98 mauser, normal size or magnum, depends on which of them.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
      #230808 - 03/06/13 02:20 AM



for the gentleman with the taste for something special the 404 schüler magnum could have some merit's today.



It's a very interesting cartridge , no question !

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: Igorrock]
      #230811 - 03/06/13 03:20 AM


Those calibers both have one factor in common; they have designed for m98 mauser, normal size or magnum, depends on which of them.



The Mauser magnum system are the best for this cartridges , but August Schüler used normal system for all his cartridges . A compromise and you need some modifications on the system ---and the cartridges , especially the deep seating of the bullets . I know the problem . My 500 Schüler ( 12,7x70 Schüler , 500 Jeffery ,... ) is a custom rifle made in the ninetieth with a magnum system and the 11,2x72 is a original Schüler from the twentieth with a M98 standart system . Was not easy to reload quickly by buffalo hunting ! The rebated rim is also a problem .

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230812 - 03/06/13 04:16 AM


grand

Why do you say the rebated rim is a problem ?

A correctly set up gun as Jeffrey and Schuler did works fine.
I have a copy of one.

Also, apart from a little longer bolt throw, why do you find the Magnum Mauser to be hard to quickly reload ? Never had a problem with it.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230817 - 03/06/13 06:43 AM

The 500 Jeffery , with his slight rebated rim , in a magnum action is not the problem , whereby by shooting a elefant with 2 shots in the heart there after the trackers gave me 2 shells back --- and a cartridge , loosed by quickly reloading !

By the 11,2x72 i push with my thumb on the cartridges in the magazine by reloading ! The rim of this cartridge is very rebated !

Very interesting all this old cartridges ! You can see where were the problems in the golden age of the safaris !



Edited by grandveneur (03/06/13 06:52 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1652
Loc: Finland
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230827 - 03/06/13 03:58 PM

The rebated rim is there only for stripper clip so I think it´s more clever do make this ammo modern to re-form it having normal size rim. Like Jack Lott used to do with .425 WR. Then good ammo canditate for BRNO 602...

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rule303
.450 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5086
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
      #230847 - 04/06/13 07:47 AM

Quote:



for the gentleman with the taste for something special the 404 schüler magnum could have some merit's today.



It certainly could have some merit for a gentleman of taste. I wonder if necking up a 375RUM would give similar performance to the 404SM.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
RobertL
.224 member


Reged: 21/04/11
Posts: 21
Loc: Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230856 - 04/06/13 10:54 PM

Hello Grandveneur,

I hope I can contribute some further clarification.

Some years ago there was an article in a German magazine „caliber” about this cartridge.
Based on what Rolf Ziegenhahn, the senior chief of the Ziegenhahn Company, told the writer the story is in short.
At about spring time in 1986 the old Schueler facility building had to make way for a new planed modern estate in Suhl.
Rolf Ziegenhahn had been informed too late about the planed demolition of the building so he arrived late for finding nearly one hundred chamber reamers in the rubble. Without searching for something special he found an old catalogue sheet in which he realized a cartridge with the name .404 Magnum Schueler. In addition the rifle model in which the cartridges were offered was mentioned as Mod 34.

With further investigations Rolf found two not fired empty cases without head stamp on a wooden board in the proof house of Suhl. One was a .500 Schueler (12,5x70) while the other was an unfired .404 Magnum Schueler.

The brass for the batch of new made cases is reformed and belt turned from Weatherby cases later fitted with the Zi-Di head stamp.

Robert

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
      #230863 - 05/06/13 01:54 AM

Hello RobertL !

I saw this old catalog page and the cartridge in the Hatari Times n° 11 . The topic was the cartridge 11,2x72 . I don't know if Mr. H.Wolf wrote a artikel about the cartridge 404 magnum Schüler .

In all cases it was a very modern cartridge but born prematurely in a time without very slow burning powder and very strong bullets .

Today we have enough good cartridges in this class , ---the 416WM for example !

But there is nothing to prevent me to look for a Mod.34 !

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230864 - 05/06/13 01:59 AM


Robert

That is a sad story.

Just think what could have been saved, stuff that
had probably survived the war(s).

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1170
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230872 - 05/06/13 08:48 AM

Quote:

In all cases it was a very modern cartridge but born prematurely in a time without very slow burning powder and very strong bullets



I don't think the powder type or bullets really had much to do with the demise of a few of these European cartridges such as the 404 Magnum Schuler. Most of the big bores, although working very well with slow burning powders, do not actually need slow burners to work efficiently. The British used cordite powder for years in most of the well known and very successful big bore cartridges and this is a relatively fast powder. As for bullets, yes there were problems in earlier days with some manufacturers bullets but again all the famous and respected performers on big game, the 375 H&H, 404J, 416 Rigby, 425 WR, 500J, 505 Gibbs and all of the British rimmed big bore cartridges for double guns, gave respectable performance on large dangerous game using the powder and bullets available at the time.

As pointed out by Taylor in his 'bible', The Europeans were always trying to play catchup to the British when developing cartridges and never quite got there, being beaten by a year or two each time. The 9.3 in the various cartridges produced for this calibre was probably the most notable exception to the rule, duplicating the 375 H&H in most respects and being well known and popular in Africa but still never ever approaching the popularity and use the 375 H&H enjoyed.

Of course with the range of powders and bullets available today any cartridge can be made to perform better to its potential including those old tried and true performers of yesteryear.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
RobertL
.224 member


Reged: 21/04/11
Posts: 21
Loc: Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: grandveneur]
      #230879 - 05/06/13 06:10 PM

Hallo Grandveneur

I know Harald Wolf well and he has not written the story about the .404 Magnum Schueler.
What have been shown in the Hatari Times article about the 11,2x72 Schüler is only the top of the catalogue sheet.
I am sorry to say, but I have my doubt that you will be able to find a Mod. 34. At least I can try to support you with a scan of that old catalogue sheet that Rolf Ziegenhahn found in the demolished building, just that you know what you are looking for. Let me know if you are interested.

The interesting thing about that cartridge is the modern design – even that the slow burning powders necessary where not available at the time neither the strong bullets as you said!
Furthermore the .404 Magnum Schueler has an L6 (overall cartridge length) of 86,5 mm so it will fit into a slightly modified standard length Mauser 98 action – that is what the .416 Weatherby can not offer….

As I said, just let me know if I can help further.
Robert

Edited by RobertL (05/06/13 06:14 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
      #230891 - 06/06/13 04:08 AM

Sure, I am very interestet

thought about it the last days and my conclusion was that this cartridge must fit in a military mauser action. this is essential for a Schüler cartridge but thank you for your clarification about the cartridge oal. I would use a common M 98 action and build a single row magazine for it. knowing that many gentleman dont like it when the magazin is not flush with the stock but I can live with this.
the feeding problems with rebated rim catridge's occur only in double row magazine's. you never hear this about the .50 Beowulf in the M 16 for example only to talk about the latest succesful rebated rim cartridge. I have study this problem in my 11,2x60 Schüler Mauser rifle and the problem with the rebated rim design is in a single moment in the feeding prozess. the cartridge in a single row magazine move in two directions: up and forward
in a double row magazin the cartridge moving up , left or right and forward.

there is a moment when the case head can slip under the bolt head when the feeding is not made 100% perfect by the gunmaker but only in double row magazine's.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (06/06/13 04:09 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1652
Loc: Finland
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
      #230894 - 06/06/13 05:28 AM

lancaster; one alternative is to do a double row magazine which feeds in the middle, like for example LAHTI-SALORANTA -machine guns magazine does.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
RobertL
.224 member


Reged: 21/04/11
Posts: 21
Loc: Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
      #230915 - 06/06/13 11:54 PM

Lancaster,

PM send.

The gun which was build by Rolf Ziegenhahn as a test sample had exactly what you descript:
- single row magazine and
- the magazin is not flush with the stock.

Robert

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
      #230916 - 07/06/13 01:01 AM


I couldn't see this cartridge in COTW.

It is a slightly older copy.

Or did I miss something ?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230919 - 07/06/13 01:49 AM

its not in COTW but also other handbooks dont know this round. I believe seeing it the first time in Hatari Times years ago.
Robert, you get an answer

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
RobertL
.224 member


Reged: 21/04/11
Posts: 21
Loc: Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
      #230948 - 07/06/13 07:27 PM

Lars,

thank you for the help.

Attached the two calatogue sheets found by Rolf Ziegenhahn






The .404 Magnum Schueler between a .404 Jeffery and a .416 Weatherby case.

Robert

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: RobertL]
      #230953 - 07/06/13 09:12 PM

Robert, we have to thank you for the pics

the interesting point about the 404 Magnum is that you get it in an military action without cuting of a little bit here and there like you do it for chamber the 404 Jeffery. if Ziegenhahn realy have a chamber reamer the Modell 34 can be dublicated for less than 2000 euro I would say.

I notice that Schüler did not offer the 11,2x60 anymore in this times.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/06/13 09:14 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 404 magnum Schüler [Re: lancaster]
      #230974 - 08/06/13 03:27 AM

Mr. Ziegenhahn is know as maker of very high quality rifles ! The rifle for the 404 Schüler is not conform of his high standart . This rifle was only a TEST RIFLE . Forget a rifle for 2000 Euros !

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 32 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 30256

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved