Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: project 500 nitro

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
project 500 nitro
      #230289 - 21/05/13 01:33 AM

this phase of building
I want the opinion of master
barrel 26 pol 8 groove
shotgun aya





--------------------
felix

Edited by CptCurl (03/06/13 08:31 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DvK
.224 member


Reged: 06/10/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Denmark
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230291 - 21/05/13 01:40 AM

Dear Felix
Nice piece of wood you have found. But do I understand it correctly that you wann to build a 500NE on the frame of an old AYA shotgun?
If so is it safe? Can the shotgun lock with stand the pressure from the NE?

DvK

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: DvK]
      #230292 - 21/05/13 01:48 AM

wood walnut grade 6
and this is one old AYA shotgun 12 gauge
wanted the experience of master
it supports the pressure

--------------------
felix

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230299 - 21/05/13 05:36 AM



--------------------
felix

Edited by CptCurl (03/06/13 08:32 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230302 - 21/05/13 07:27 AM

Personally, I have never built a .500 on any Spanish action, though I have built a few of them, and many more .450 nitro, on German frames, and on some larger waterfowl English action frames. ONE OF THE MAIN PROBLEMS WITH USING A 12 GAUGE FOR A .500 IS GETTING THE COMPLETED OVERALL WEIGHT TO BE CORRECT, HEAVY ENOUGH, FOR A .500. USUALLY, THAT MEANS THAT, TO GET THE REQUIRED NEEDED WEIGHT, ONE HAS TO HAVE OUTSIDE BARREL DIAMETER CONTOURS LARGER THAN PREFERABLE, NORMAL, MAKING FOR TOO MUCH FORWARD BARREL WEIGHT--A BARREL HEAVY DOUBLE, NOT THE MOST PREFERABLE RIFLE DUE TO WEIGHT ISSUE. A 10 GAUGE MAGNUM IS PERFECT, FOR WEIGHT, ETC., IN .577 CONVERSION, WHICH I HAVE MADE SEVERAL, USING SPANISH BOXLOCK ACTIONS, BUT THAT SAME 10 GAUGE, OVERALL, IS TOO HEAVY FOR .500, WHILE THE 12 GA. IS TOO LIGHT FOR .500; THAT IS THE UNRESOLVED ISSUE, IN TRYING TO MAKE .500 CONVERSION. I have a beautiful 20 ga. mag. sidelock Spanish double, with 9.3x74R barrel set made by Francotte, so even "big time" makers did such conversions.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230308 - 21/05/13 10:51 AM

Felix,

If you've read Ellis' book and done your sums as to suitability of action for the calibre I'd say your biggest problem is to get the weight for calibre and balance correct so that you've got a "dynamic handling" and shootable double.

It is my understanding that the AYA 2 is a copy of the bar action Holland and Holland sidelock action that is well revered. By the photo it looks to be reinforced in the elbow of the action ......at least to some extent. This action should have all the lockups on it and if fitted up correctly (read Vic Venters article about "Jointing and the Circle", from GunCraft, especially his comments on jointing double rifles), and the hardness is correct, it should make a good conversion.

This is the very action that has my attention for a double rifle build as it is a copy of the Holland action. Just got to find one with a pistol grip stock.........and come up with the money, of course.

This is just my opinion..........as a student of the process with zero shotgun to double rifle conversions to my credit.

Please keep the photos coming. And be sure to provide commentary for the rest of us to learn from.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: twobobbwana]
      #230309 - 21/05/13 11:01 AM


doubleriflejack

What do you think of the Greener Boxlock action
for a Nitro for Black double rifle ?

I have seen them used on 500's and 577's.

I always thought they looked / worked out OK.

Any thoughts ?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230341 - 22/05/13 03:54 AM

Felix,
I took, in gunsmithing school, a class on double shotgun to double rifle conversion, from W. Ellis Brown, prior to his writing book on same subject, now in its second edition; that is essentially where I learned the process, including techniques of regulation. Thus, I highly recommend his book for anyone doing or attempting to do such conversions, or anyone considering doing some double rifle regulation work. However, his book, and discussion with him, still does not resolve the issue of a suitable action for conversion to .500, due to problems I previously mentioned above.

500 Nirro,
I have no experience using the Greener boxlock action, for double rifle conversions, but I am familiar with these actions, and am confident that they, along with many other British/German and other actions found around the world, are most suitable. But, American actions are NOT suitable, though they tend to be robust enough, they lack good proper bolting. For nitro for black loads, including the .500 N. for black, the Greener is more than suitable, as are a good number of other actions, since heavier overall rifle weight is not needed with N. for black, as is needed for full nitro rifles.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230344 - 22/05/13 04:53 AM

this weighing around 11 libras and 1/2 barrel 26 pol. 18mm
yes old holland action
but what and ideal weight?

--------------------
felix

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230388 - 23/05/13 07:54 AM

Felix,
An ideal weight for a .500 nitro would be around 11+ pounds; anything lighter is too light for recoil concerned. However, overall weight isn't the whole story, but BALANCED weight is. By balanced weight, I mean your goal for a best balanced, nicely handling double rifle, is to have most of the overall weight between the hands, when in firing position. W. Ellis Brown, who wrote that book we previously mentioned, made his very first conversion using a German made 16 gauge action to .450 nitro. As soon as I picked it up, I could feel that the barrel weight was too extreme, too heavy toward the muzzles, too large in diameter toward the muzzles; resulting in being not balanced well at all. When I mentioned that to Brown, he said that he agreed, and that he would never again use a 16 gauge for that or similar caliber, as it was simply too light in weight, forcing him to make barrels excessively too heavy, in order to handle the recoil of that caliber, even though the action was able to hold up to the firing forces, pressures----he had fired it hundreds of times, if I recall correctly.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230391 - 23/05/13 09:27 AM

doubleriflejack
which the ideal size to leave the barrel, this is with 26 inch, 8 groove
which Amedida and maxima for the firing pins?, not to rupture of this primer is with 0.0900
which measure maxima to leave the red space of 500 nitro?

--------------------
felix

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230398 - 23/05/13 10:56 AM

doubleriflejack,

Not wanting to state the obvious too loudly. Ellis' light for calibre, muzzle heavy .450 NE can be, at least to some extent, rectified by adding weight to the buttstock and thereby moving the balance point back to the hinge pin.

I think that'd increase it's weight (minorly) and improve it's handling (majorly).

Steven Dodd Hughs does some good writing on achieving "dynamic handling" in his books.

Felix, If you've gotten 11 1/2lbs with 26" barrells you're in the ballpark.If this weight includes ribs, sights, forend and sling swivels and balanced at the hinge pin I'd be happy.

I believe that Ellis' book deals with firing pin diameters and protrusion.

Get yourself a copy of "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions" by Ellis Brown and read it thoroughly and it will answer alot of your questions. You can consider this as an unabashed, shameless, advertisement for his book if you wish.

Buy yourself a set of Headspace guages or measure rim thicknesses of different brands of cases and chamber so that the gun will only just close, without force, on the thickest rimmed brand cases.

Perhaps more chambering advice, on hinged action guns, can be contributed here by a gunsmith.

I charge nothing for this advice.......but just remember "free advice is usually worth everything you've given for it".

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: twobobbwana]
      #230414 - 23/05/13 10:19 PM

I already have the book's second edition w.ellis brown, but has 500 points as red space ntro
I wanted to know if the strikers with 0.900 ruptured primer?

--------------------
felix

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rhodes
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: twobobbwana]
      #230457 - 24/05/13 08:47 PM

Quote:


Not wanting to state the obvious too loudly. Ellis' light for calibre, muzzle heavy .450 NE can be, at least to some extent, rectified by adding weight to the buttstock and thereby moving the balance point back to the hinge pin.

I think that'd increase it's weight (minorly) and improve it's handling (majorly).





bwana

This would actually add weight to the extreme's of the gun, not condusive to good handling. Try it yourself. Get a broomstick, tape some heavy weights to the ends, hold the broomstick in the middle and spin it in an arc back and forth around the central point. Now move the weights to the middle of the broomstick, grip either side of the weights and try the move again. Much easier. It's all about inertia. You need the extra weight around the action.




felix

John Hunter was a PH of some repute in Africa for most of his life back around the 1920's & 30's. He wrote that his favourite double rifle for dangerous game was a 500NE weighing 10.5 pounds. He wrote that he couldn't handle the recoil from the heavier 577NE and 600NE. I guess weight for caliber depends on the user so make of it what you will. I'm looking forward to your progress with this build, I hope you keep us up to date.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: Rhodes]
      #230554 - 27/05/13 11:12 AM

Rhodes,

I'll not display my ingnorance of physics as, clearly, your grasp of it is greater than mine.

However, given that it's a bit late to add weight to Felix's action, adding weight to the buttstock seems to be about the best fix for a muzzle heavy gun available.

I have seen reference to adding weight as far forward in the buttstock as possible. Thereby getting the added weight as close to "between the hands" as possible......and I'd say that this approach is used due to the principle that you describe.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CowboyCS
.333 member


Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: twobobbwana]
      #230556 - 27/05/13 12:35 PM

It also depends on the individual and how much muzzle heavy we are talking about...In heavy recoiling calibers I like a slightly muzzle heavy gun(meaning balance point up to an inch ahead of the pin, still between the hands but towards the forehand), that extra weight out front helps me recover from recoil faster and regain my sight picture for the second shot. But that is my personal taste not the norm.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: CowboyCS]
      #230557 - 27/05/13 12:52 PM

Col,

A little "weight forward" can also help you swing on moving targets. Especially long "crossers".

It sounds like, in Felix's case, we're talking about a balance point that's considerably more than an inch in front of the hinge pin.

I'd say the better balanced, closest to the hinge pin, the better it will carry, mount, point and swing. That's how it seems to work with shotguns carried in the field that may have to be mounted and shot on moving game. That's why the English doubles have the "lively feel" and swing like a gun that's lighter than their actual weights.

Of course a big contributing factor to the gun's "mountability/shootability/feel" is proper gun fit.......which is also why a made to measure/properly balanced gun has such "legendary" handling capabilities.

Not preaching to the converted or needlessly arguing the point just puting it out there for people's consideration.

Where's SDH when you need him ???

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230702 - 31/05/13 05:14 AM

Felix,
I sent you a PM regarding your striker lengths from breech face.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230771 - 02/06/13 09:45 AM

Thanks for the information, two heads are better than one
thanks doubleriflejack and ron

--------------------
felix

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ron_Vella
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230852 - 04/06/13 10:31 AM

Da Nada!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rhodes
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #230854 - 04/06/13 07:51 PM

felix

I've been looking for a post that Ellis made about some barrel tapers on some original Rigby 450NE's that he measured. I found it over on AR. Here is a copy and paste of what he wrote. You will have to adjust the diameters to suit your larger bore but hopefully, with a bit of trial and error, you will find it of some use:-

"
Based on my experience, unless you are going to contour the barrels yourself, most barrel makers do not make a barrel contour that will be as small as most double rifles (and double rifle makers) want, even on a "custom order". I understand that Montana Riflesmith now has equipment that will allow them to make double rifle tapers and will make them, but I have not personally ordered a set of barrels from them.

I did order a set of double rifle contoured barrels from Lothar Walther. They did make what I wanted (mostly), but it took forever (over a year) and I can't really recommend them, unless you can wait a long time. Those were in .375 (muzzle diam. of .550") and will be for a .375-2.5" NE.

Back to your basic question, I have measured several "original" double rifle barrels. I plan to have a section in the 3rd edition of the book (appendix ??) that will list my research on original double rifle barrel tapers. The muzzle diameter does not tell the whole story. It is important to look at the whole barrel taper as well.

Below is some information from 5 different Rigby double rifle barrel sets that I measured (the table did not import well, but I think you can figure it out - sorry). Note that all dimensions are diameters (in inches), except for the barrel "Length".

Rigby .450 Barrel Tapers
(5 different barrels)

Breech;___3” from Breech;___6” from Breech;____Muzzle;____Length
1.029;____________0.89;__________0.787;_____0.638;_____26.0”
1.029;___________0.906;___________0.83;_____0.638;_____26.0”
1.045;___________0.913;__________0.876;_____0.638;_____26.0”
1.063;___________0.942;__________0.878;_____0.638;_____26.0”
1.038;___________0.918;__________0.824;_____0.618;_____26.0”

Ellis450 "




I've also added a picture below to show how the British tapered the barrels on their big bore NE rifles to get the weight between the hands for better handling. Taking some weight off the ends of the barrels and concertrating it around the action.

Below is a Manton 470NE. This is as good as it gets for me and is a work of art in my eye's. You can see the barrel taper is close to parrallel for ~3 inches at the chamber end. Then it has a sharper taper for ~4 to 5 inches. Then it eases into a more gradual taper down to the muzzle end.




Looking at your barrels so far they appear to have only one taper from chamber all the way down to the muzzle end. I realise you are limited by the shotgun monoblock but maybe there is a bit of room for you to play with the barrel profile to take a bit of weight from the barrels. Just a thought.



Good luck and let us know how you go.

Cheers
Rhodes

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:08 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230858 - 05/06/13 12:09 AM



--------------------
felix

Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 08:14 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230859 - 05/06/13 12:11 AM



--------------------
felix

Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 08:14 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230860 - 05/06/13 12:12 AM



--------------------
felix

Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 08:15 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
felix
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/12
Posts: 41
Loc: minas gerais, Brazil
Re: project 500 nitro [Re: felix]
      #230861 - 05/06/13 12:14 AM

I was thinking of leaving the barrel to 24 inches

--------------------
felix

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 150 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 33611

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved