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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Regulation issues?
      #230152 - 17/05/13 01:37 AM

I have been having a few issues with my Chapuis SMS 450-400 3". I could really use a little brain power and experience.

The first box of factory Hornady DGX shot into a little over 2 inches at 100y with a Leopoldo vx6 1-6x. Perfect left to right but the left barrel was a touch high. This is shooting from the sand bag bench.

I've been playing with reloading but I am headed to Africa and I shot a box of factory DGX to zero it. It seems to shoot the left barrel 5+ inches higher then the right now. It's from a bench but I just can't understand it.

Any thoughts?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Rell]
      #230157 - 17/05/13 01:54 AM

Are you holding the barrels with your left (or right) hand, then resting our hand on the bag, or merely letting the barrels bounce?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: DarylS]
      #230166 - 17/05/13 04:39 AM

Letting the barrels bounce ....

The forend is resting on the sand bag and my right hand is gripping the forend behind the point at which the forend is resting on the bag.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Rell]
      #230167 - 17/05/13 04:48 AM


The gun shouldn't be touching the sand bag at all.

Only your forearm if anything should be touching
the sand bags.


You say "you have been playing with reloading"

OK, how did the reloads shoot ?
Were they shooting SxS ?


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Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #230171 - 17/05/13 07:34 AM

I'm having problems with a Bock-Drilling, that has 2 rifle and one shotgun barrel. The .22 Hornet barrel should regulate to approximately the same POI at 100 meters as the 7x65R rifle barrel. However it shot well to the left and up, almost off the target. I took a large bag of wood-wool, (like straw but made of wood shavings. I use if for lining wild-duck nest boxes), and shot the rifle holding the forend while leaning on this bag. The POI was the same as the benchrest, so this wasn't really the issue.

I then took a jewelers loupe (a magnifier), and looked very carefully at the 2 muzzle crowns and found they were chewed out one side - the opposite side to the direction the bullets were biased to. I had these crown chamfers recut but the damage was still visible and the POI still unreulated. I then had the muzzle crowns set back perhaps 5mm until the crowns were completely clear of any damage. Any deeper and the danger was that the soldered muzzles would be comrpomised. The appearance is still quite acceptable. This work resulted in 1" (MOA) 3-shot groups for the 7x65R and a much better regulation for both barrels. It's not perfect yet, but it's a lot better and I'm now looking for the right powder/velocity/bullet load that brings the 2 together.

So have a very careful look at your muzzle crowns. If the bullet goes up, look especially at the lower crown for that barrel. What happens is that as the bullet is clearing the barrel, the damage allows the powder gases to blast by while the rest of the bullet is sealed to the barrel. This tips the bullet slighly in the opposite direction.

Also, it's no bad thing to find out what the factory regulated the rifle with, and use the same load or as nearly so as you can make it. For instance, this Ferlach made rifle was made in an era when .22 Hornets were uniformly 45 grain and 2,400 fps. So that's a pretty good place to start, though increased velocity can, of course, shift the POI and, if you're lucky, shrink the distance between the two barrels POI.

It can be an option to load different loads for the left and right barrels, that regulate closer. However, if you then mix them up... !!! If you went this route, which I don't really suggest, you might look at using nickel-plated cases for one of the barrels, so they don't get mixed up. I use nickel cases for solids so they don't get mixed up with softs.


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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #230174 - 17/05/13 08:28 AM

Going over my notes the reloads all shot a little higher with left then right but it seems to be a little inconsistent.

It's regulated with Hornady DGX and that's what I've been using and trying to reproduce with the reloads.

I'm going to try not letting the rifle touch the bags at all and I' ll take a look at the crowns as well. I'll shoot it Saturday and let you know how it goes.

Thank you for the guidance and advice.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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DvK
.224 member


Reged: 06/10/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Denmark
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Rell]
      #230180 - 17/05/13 09:36 PM

Could you post a picture of a target printing 3 shorts from the luft and three shots from the right bartel?

Maybe the barrels is loos between them ( dont know the frase in english). Tjat dó happen from time to time.

DvK


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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: DvK]
      #230346 - 22/05/13 05:22 AM

Can't figure out pictures but ....

I looked at the crowns and they have a couple of light marks, dings, scratches in them. I bought a brass rod and jag from trader Keith and it looks like I was aggressive pulling them back and marked up the crowns.

The right barrel shoots three rights into 1.5 inches at 100y so for this trips it's a single shot. Past 50 yards.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll send it back to JJ what I get back from South Africa in June.

Saved for 15 years, finally got the double and mess it up in 4 weeks flat. Anyone want to lend me a pre-war H&H royal?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Rell]
      #230358 - 22/05/13 03:21 PM

If you look at the Wolfe publishing website, you can backorder the Sept 2012 issue of Rifle magazine, that describes how not to harm bores, muzzles etc by cleaning. You can get the original copy or also download. The article is page 24, The Other Part of Bore Cleaning. It's the best description I've read, and explains for instance, marks in the mid-bore caused by flexing cleaning rods, wear at the leade caused by tilted steel rods, etc.

In terms of muzzle damage, if you rip a jag back into the bore, it's going to act like a rasp. A smallbore shooter, I know, (which means an indoor .22 long rifle, 25 yard shooter to those not familiar with the term as used in the UK, Australia and NZ), will unfailingly remove the jag from his cleaning rod rather than pull it back through. He's a champion shot and so who would argue with him. I personally lift any calibre jag and/or the brush so that it enters the bore centered. I also use a bore guide every time. If I can't use a bore guide, if it's not a bolt action, I often use a case that's been drilled and tapped for a Stoney Point, (now Hornady), OAL gauge. This can be slipped in the chamber of a double rifle, for instance, and helps protect the leade. Each case is custom fired in the gun before being drilled and tapped.

Some jags are worse by their shape than others and a critical look at them when they're protruding from the muzzle, especially at any sharp edges will give you a new perspective on what to buy.

In my last post, I mentioned that my gunsmith removed 5mm of each of the barrel crowns of my Bock-Drilling, but left the middle support untouched. So there's a slight recess for both barrels. Having inspected it again, I'd say it's more like 3mm, and I'm sure he would have removed only the very least necessary to remove the crown marks that affected accuracy.


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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #232894 - 25/07/13 08:39 AM

Well I sent the Chapuis to JJ at Champlin. He re- crowned it but ... It is still all over the place. He gave it a once over but he can't find anything.

He thinks it needs to be re-regulated. What causes a double shooting 2 inch 100 yard groups to crap out and only shoot 5 inch 50 yard groups?

Pretty frustrating!

That fiberglass stocked bolt gun is not looking so bad at the moment.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Rell]
      #232895 - 25/07/13 08:50 AM


"What causes a double shooting 2 inch 100 yard groups to crap out and only shoot 5 inch 50 yard groups?"

A loose rib.


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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #232899 - 25/07/13 10:16 AM

Rell:
If its not a loose rib, you might try a bullet with a different Ogive. My rifle was regulated for Hornady ammunition and shot left barrel higher at 50 yds, I went to a rounder nose bullet and handloads, they began printing the same level. The ogive can really effect composite groups.
Bob

Edited by aromakr (25/07/13 10:17 AM)


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: aromakr]
      #232902 - 25/07/13 10:55 AM


aromakr

I thought he said it was shooting well and now it's not ?

I agree with you, if the bullet has been changed,
it can affect the regulation.


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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #232918 - 25/07/13 10:09 PM

It was shooting great and then over the space of two shooting sessions it went to hell.

It was regulated with Hornady 400 gr DGX and that 's all I've ever shot out of it.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Rell]
      #232921 - 25/07/13 10:30 PM


Then I would say something is loose, the ribs.

It doesn't take much to throw a double out.

I know of an H&H that went to pot and that
was exactly the problem, loose rib.


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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #232928 - 26/07/13 01:18 AM

I'm hoping that JJ at Champlin can figure it out. I'm pretty happy about their guarantee on Chapuis right now!

He's saying it needs re-regulation. If it does should I get it re- regulated with a handload instead of the Hornady factory load?

IMR 3031, Fed GM Mag primers and 400gr H DGX at 2100 GPS?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Regulation issues? [Re: Rell]
      #232931 - 26/07/13 01:37 AM

Well, I wouldn't get it regulated with an "exotic" hand load
and I'm not sure how that load you listed compares.

It also depends on whether you are planning to keep the gun
for a long time.

Personally, if your hand load is close to a normal factory load, I would go factory load and then reload to this.

That way, you have two options.

With regulating to a hand load, you might only have one load.

But that is my opinion only, others may have a view.



Edited by 500Nitro (26/07/13 01:38 AM)


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