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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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DUGABOY1
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: unspellable]
      #19897 - 21/10/04 08:07 AM

In reply to:

The pressure issue with double rifles has nothing to do with the strength of the action and never did. A 12 gauge will put as much or more back thrust on the action as most rifle cartridges. I've seen two examples of double rifles blown up. Both went out through the side of the barrel without damage to the action.




Unspellable,you are absolutely correct that most complete blow-ups occure in the walls of the barrel, usually just ahead of the chamber area, where the barrels get thinner! However, an action can be damaged severly, long before a barrel lets go.

In reply to:

The reason pressure was an issue is extraction. The double simply does not have the mechanical advantage a bolt does on extraction



The above quote is also correct, and is just as sereous when faced with a locked tight double, whne one needs to re-load fast!

The high pressures are simply hard on the actions of double rifles, and their longivity is shortened by it to a great degree! My question is, if you are going to spend the price of a new car for a rifle, why not get the best value for money, and avoid the potentual problems? By not haveing it chambered for a cartridge that is not well suited to the type rifle your buying? I will say a lot of the loose actioned doubles was not caused by the wrong cartridge, but haveing the wrong owner, who doesn't know how to care for it!

I think one of the reasons you see so many damaged doubles that are chambered for rounds like the 458 Win Mag, and 375H&H, is the mind-set of the guys who buy them. Most folks who buy a rifle chambered for either of these two rounds, tend to be people who look to get as much velocity as they can from a cartridge. That is a mind-set that is dangerous where double rifles are concerned, new, or old!



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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unspellable
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: bonanza]
      #19898 - 21/10/04 08:34 AM

Simplest answers first. Side clips supposedly help to prevent side to side movement of the barrels relative to the standing breech face. They may accomplish something in the absence of a third bite, but if you have a third bite in the form of a doll's head or cross bolt that are properly fitted, there's not much left for the side clips to do except look pretty.

Proper lubrication is essential to prevent wear, especially at the hinge pin and cross bolt or doll's head if there is one. The rifle (or gun) will eventually shoot loose due to the pounding on the surfaces in these areas. A proper lubricant acts as a cushion, it can't get out of the way as fast as the firing impulse hits. This greatly reduces the battering these areas must suffer.

As a first approximation, back thrust is equal to pressure times the inside base area of the cartridge. There are a few complications. The case will take a grip on the chamber walls and reduce the back thrust, the inertia of the parts reduces back thrust, etc. That's why the British method of determining pressure by measuring back thrust always yields lower numbers than the American method of measuring through a hole in the side of the chamber. There are advantages to both. the American method is probably better for determining what will blow up the gun but the British method will correlate better to how fast the action will wear.

I'm not sure how the 375 would compare to the 470 but you have the right idea in that it's pressure times area, not simply pressure alone.

Two points for oiling. Oil is bad, bad, on wood. Don't over oil and it's better to store the piece horizontally or muzzle down than butt down like most gun cabinmets seem to do. Most of the lock parts will want oil but grease is called for on the hinge pin and bites.

Here's the question I have yet to figure out. What do you do for cleaning and oiling on a box lock? What evil lurks in there? They're not easy to take apart. The local "gunsmiths" are NOT going to touch my double! Shipping it off to a qualified smith would run to money.

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unspellable
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: unspellable]
      #19899 - 21/10/04 08:41 AM

An advantage to the double is that it's not fussy about cartridge length or size so in designing a cartridge for it you can use a big case and there's simply no need for high pressures.

The bolt rifle has constraints on the case size and requires high pressures to get the job done.

As for blow ups, it's a case of when they go, they do as they damn well please. More seriously, when they blow out through the action it's usually the case or primer that fails first. In other words too much pressure for the case. If they go out through the side, its too much pressure for the barrel. Of course the action may be poorly desigend or have a flaw. But a double action is not inherently weak. With a primer or case failure a modern bolt rifle may handle the escaping gas better.

Bottom line is save the over pressure experiments for your Ruger blackhawk, get an old tire, a long string, a big tree and ear muffs.

Edited by unspellable (21/10/04 09:21 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: unspellable]
      #19911 - 21/10/04 11:19 PM

According to Graeme Wright the 470 nitro produces 16tpsi, the 375F 18tpsa and the 375H&H 20tpsi. Using a reduced pressure powder (H414) and a reduced load 235g@2500fps I reckon my loads are in the 18tpsi range. And giving that the gun is built like a brick shit house, I doubt I have much to worry about.

The action has two engagements(?) under the barrel and the greener cross bolt plus the side clips (I agree they are pretty)

Sorry to say, but I'm not familiar with the terms bite, dolls head.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

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"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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DUGABOY1
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: bonanza]
      #19912 - 22/10/04 01:52 AM

In reply to:

The action has two engagements(?) under the barrel and the greener cross bolt plus the side clips (I agree they are pretty)

Sorry to say, but I'm not familiar with the terms bite, dolls head.



Bonanza , those engagements under the barrels are refered to as BITES! A "DOLL'S HEAD" is the same as your Greener extention (Cross Bolt) but has no cross bolt, and is rounded on the end so it fits into a mateing rounded recess in the top of the action exactly where you Greener extention is on your rifle. Most Britt doubles have either a hidden, or a doll's head third fastener, while most Euro doubles have the Greener cross bolt third fastener. The doll's head, or greener are better than the hidden third fastener, IMO! I also like side clips!

By the way congratulations on you win at the Big bore shoot! Good show!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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AussieMike
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: unspellable]
      #19915 - 22/10/04 02:43 AM

"Here's the question I have yet to figure out. What do you do for cleaning and oiling on a box lock? What evil lurks in there? They're not easy to take apart. The local "gunsmiths" are NOT going to touch my double! Shipping it off to a qualified smith would run to money. "

I had an emergency with with a Wetley Richards DR that had been submerged for several days in a flood a few months before I got it. Rust started breaking out on the barrels and it became clear that there was still alot of moisture in the wood. I pulled the action down to basic parts in a couple of hours (with two phone calls to a very knowledgeable and helpful 'smith in Darwin. I was just very careful and used a drill press for any screw that even looked like being difficult. What's more, two months later I got it back together again without dramas.

In the olden days blokes went on safari for months on end and carried spare firing pins, springs etc and replaced them as necessary. The famed Westley Richards "drop lock" just made this easier.

I'd not hesitate to pull anything apart. Mind you I've got a lot of boxes with bits of chainsaws, motorbikes and cars that I decided to pull apart and one day plan to put back together.

mike

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470Rigby
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #19924 - 22/10/04 09:10 AM

In reply to:

The high pressures are simply hard on the actions of double rifles, and their longivity is shortened by it to a great degree!



Totally agree! And as is usual, the British had the answer way back in 1905 for controlling pressures in medium bore doubles, and that was the .360 No.2 Nitro Express.

Pushing a 320 grain bullet at 2,200 fps for a pressure generated with 55 gr Cordite of a mere 14.5 tpsi!

Modern powders would facilitate even lower pressures and/or higher MV's.

Sure, it's a reloading proposition today, but for all practical purposes, so is the .375 Flanged Magnum. Having owned a Royal Grade Holland that shot off the face in that chambering (and I've yet to see one that hadn't!), once bitten, twice shy!

So - my vote goes to the .360 No.2 NE as the ideal all-round double rifle calibre!

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mickey
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: bonanza]
      #19926 - 22/10/04 10:27 AM



In reply to:

Poster: bonanza
Subject: Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail

Sorry to say, but I'm not familiar with the terms bite, dolls head.



Bonanza

Here is a picture of a Dolls Head (sort of), a hidden third bite and the hinge pin. Note that the hidden bite is notched to the rear for a sliding bar to engage as is the front lug.



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A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: 470Rigby]
      #19942 - 23/10/04 12:16 AM

" Royal Grade Holland that shot off the face in that chambering (and I've yet to see one that hadn't!), "

Mine hasn't. Probably will when I get to 2000+ rounds. I'll just have it fixed. The real issue here is, The only low pressure cartridge in new guns is the 470. Now, I must admint that new 500/416 looks very interesting. I like the idea of a 400 grain bullet moving out about 2200-2300 fps, good killing power plus moderate recoil in a DR.



--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DUGABOY1
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: mickey]
      #19943 - 23/10/04 12:33 AM

In reply to:

Note that the hidden bite is notched to the rear for a sliding bar to engage as is the front lug.




The third bite in your picture is not easy to see, but is there! the top lever actually slides over the small notch in the rib extension. A true "HIDDEN THIRD FASTENER" is a rib extension, AH LA H&H, where the rib extends through the extractor into a hidden recess in the breach face! I find the doll's head to be the better of the two types. The best being the dolls head with a bite in it's back side AH LA WESTLEY RICHARDS. This type really has four fasteners! The one shown in you pictures has four as well!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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unspellable
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #20018 - 26/10/04 01:54 AM

I do not consider a third bite in a doll's head to be a hidden bite. It's an small extension between the extractors and not very prominent, hence the term hidden.

A doll's head may or may not have a bite, but I do not count the doll's head itself as a bite. A bite (when engaged) tends to prevent the action from being manually opened. A doll's head without a bite does not do this. Note that I said "manually". Not quite the same thing as the opening forces applied during firing where the doll's head with out bite does tend to prevent opening.

A doll's head with a bite is probably better than one without, but one without will do as intended if properly designed and fitted. Greener used to brag up his cross bolt at the expense of the doll's head without a bite. The key to either is proper fitting. A Greener cross bolt accomplishes nothing if it is not properly fitted.

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atkinson6
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: unspellable]
      #20021 - 26/10/04 02:51 AM

I am a fan of the 9.3x62 which can be loaded up to a good deal better than a 9.3x74, and I consider it a doable Buffalo rifle if all goes well, but certainly at the bottom of the Buff calibers...

I know the 9.3x74 will kill a Buffalo, but it takes awhile for them to die and they make a lot of steps before they expire unless spine or brain is hit...I know that Lions can be very agressive also, and wouldn't even consider a 9.3x74 on Lion...

I wouldn't recommend a 9.3x74 for dangerous game, unless your content with letting your PH clean up your mess....

I would recommend a 450-400 as the minimum buffalo double rifle and the warm loaded 9.3x62 as minimum in a bolt gun.......

My 9.3x62 with a 26 inch barrel will toss a 300 gr. Swift bullet at 2450 FPS, a 286 gr. at 2520 FPS, and a 320 gr. Woodleigh at 2400, that is a good deal beyond factory ammo and way beyond a 9.3x74 capability....

I have seen the 9.3x74 used on a number of Buffalo by clients, mostly ladies, and I have never been impressed, its just a bit shy IMO...

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bonanza
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: atkinson6]
      #20026 - 26/10/04 04:50 AM

How about the .375 flanged in DR? Too much recoil?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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AussieMike
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: bonanza]
      #20030 - 26/10/04 10:44 AM

I've got doubles in 375 H&H belted magnum and a 375 H&H flanged magnum. Both are pussycats with the flanged being milder due to its lower pressure loading (and well designed British stock - the belted mag is a continental U/O).

mike

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bonanza
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: AussieMike]
      #20044 - 27/10/04 01:10 AM

I've got a 375H&H in a side by side, what kind of gun is you O/U, how well does it shoot?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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AussieMike
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: bonanza]
      #20058 - 27/10/04 09:12 AM

G'day Bonanza,

It's a Brno (the factory now produces CZ firearms). I got it 17 years ago for about $US1,500 inc Zeiss Jena 4x scope with rail mounts. It was new at the time.

For the money, it's fine - regulates ok (4"@50yds) even though we can't get the RWS 305g cartidges it was regulated for here. About 5" separation with the scope in place.

It was my first double and first big bore and I've had a lot of fun shooting pigs, goats and rabbits. Always planned to use hunting sambar deer in the forest but haven't got around to it yet.

mike

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vigillinus
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: AussieMike]
      #20062 - 27/10/04 12:39 PM

I have related this experience before, decades back I had a Westley droplock .375 H&H belted mag, peepsight in the rib, super rifle, cased, mint, extra locks, the works. One of the finest rifles I have ever owned. I and Dick Vogt, who long ago wrote an article for Gun Digest on loading for doubles, tried to get it to shoot. We tried about everything - it did well with Kynoch factory loads, you could still get some, but no luck with American brass, powder, or bullets. Finally halfway decent groups were obtained but with such heavy loads of 4350 that there were severe extraction and ejection problems. I sold it for about $3000 - you can estimate from that how long ago this was. Then to our absolute dumbfounded fury the buyer wrote us some weeks later that he had had no trouble getting it to stay in 3" with handloads !! And perfect ejection. We were so mad we never quizzed him about the load. Turned me off rimless cases for doubles forever.



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bonanza
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: vigillinus]
      #20076 - 28/10/04 12:22 AM

The main (99%) reason I got the 375H&H mag in my double was, I simply can't take the recoil of a 470. I've shot them, and my flinch is atrocious. My 375 DR will shoot sub 3" 6 shot groups at 50Y and off the bench I can latterly shoot the 10 ring out. The recoil is so mild with the 235g sierras I can practice all day. I'm now a better shot with my DR than I ever was with my bolt gun.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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atkinson6
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: bonanza]
      #20144 - 29/10/04 08:02 AM

Good move Bonanza, if everyone knew their recoil limitations, a lot less incidents would take place, a 375 in the ticker beats the hell out of a gut shot with a 470....

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NE450No2
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail [Re: atkinson6]
      #22987 - 31/12/04 03:57 PM

Since there has been some questions about the 375 vs. the 9,3x74R, which calibre for a double etc so I thought I would send this "back to the top".

I would like to add that a 9,3x74R double rifle [scoped] and a 450/400 double rifle [or a 500/416 in a new made double] would be just about a perfect pair of doubles for World wide use for the modern sport hunter.

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