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93x64mm
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Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

.423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery
#229203 - 22/04/13 10:03 PM

Folks, I have acquired a .404 CZ550 recently & would like to do some casting to ease costs a little. In the shop at present getting the trigger redone & bedded - none what so ever on Safari classics here in Oz. We seem to be the poor cousins over here, & I'm not the only one to have this issue!
Firstly where can i get here in Oz a Lyman/RCBS type sizing die for a .423" projectile?
Do I get a .417" one & rebore to suit say .001" oversize with a new inner or use a Lee type push through type - if we can get them sent out?
Also single cavity moulds, can we get these here in .423" from CBE in 400gn+ - any ideas on cost if they can?
Finally if using a gascheck type projectile would Lymans No2 or "hardball" be OK to use if pushed to 2150fps+
Still waiting on dies & cases.....luckily not holding my breath!
ANy help would be appreciated
93x64mm

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VonGruff
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229303 - 26/04/13 04:36 PM

When I got mine there was a chap in the US who was opening out the 417 dies and supplying new push rods but he is not longer doing so. Buckshot over on the CB forum will do custom dies but any competent user of a lathe should be able to do it. Just make sure to turn it under size and lap it out to final with w&d paper, usually the last .0005 - .001.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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eagle27
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Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: VonGruff]
#229321 - 27/04/13 07:11 AM

My 404 sizing die set is an original Lyman which I bought back in the late seventies through my local gunshop. The old Mauser bore showed a bit of wear so I got the die made in .425". It came in the proper Lyman die tube stamped .425". They must have offered a custom service in those days, perhaps still do if asked. Von Gruff and I have exchanged bullet moulds and cast bullets which we size in our dies and then shoot wonderfully in our 404s.

My 400gr mould casts plain base and I have never got great results with these bullets until turning a shoulder and crimping gas checks on, then they really shoot. Without the gas check I noticed some lead splashing back onto the necks of my cases so am assuming there is some gas cutting of the plain base. My 404 has been very long throated probably for the early monometal bullets of the day.

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: eagle27]
#229363 - 28/04/13 07:53 AM

Eagle27 & VonGruff
Thanks gents for the insight - I thought that's what would be done. Seems strange that we have no "generic" sizing dies by LYMAN's etc for the .404!
What alloy are you lot running for your cast bullets for your .404's?
At present I'm getting a hunting mate of mine to chase up Jim at Cast Bullet Engineering here in Oz to see what he can do for me in regards to the moulds, dies etc. I haven't slugged the bore yet of the CZ but will have to before getting my moulds - hence the alloy question for minimal sizing!
One other question gentleman, if I may? Can you add here your .404 loads both reduced & full loads if you can please?
Kind regards
93x64mm

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VonGruff
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229367 - 28/04/13 09:12 AM

I had a mould made by Hoch to cast a 350gn bullet at .4245 and I size to .424. Of course the more Pb in the mix the heavier it is and the 50/50 (ww/Pb) bullet drops at closer to 375gn. I have used from heat treated 90/10 (ww/lino) over 87gn 2209 for 2416fps (88gn 2437), straight lino over 83gn 2209 for 2300fps and exceptional accuracy and 74gn 2208 for exceptable accuracy and 2365fps.
50/50 (ww/Pb) over 63gn 2209 for 1900fps is the accuracy champ and a 50/50 (ww/Pb)over 21gn Red Dot is a great plinker. All except the plinker use cu GC while the plinker uses my own made Al gc. All load testing at 55 yds with aperture sights. A 70/30 mix of ww/lino at about 15-16 BHN would make a good alloy for the heavier boddied animals but the 50/50 (63gn 2209) at 1900 would still make a good 100-150 yds killer and even my 50/50 bullet plinker load at 1500fps has bought a number of goats to the deck.

Edited by CptCurl (19/05/13 09:36 PM)

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eagle27
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: VonGruff]
#229374 - 28/04/13 04:09 PM

I use the same 63.0grs AR2209 as VG posts above with his 350gr and my 400gr bullets for the same accuracy results and have also tried VG's red dot plinking load with his 350gr cast bullets too and it is a pleasant accurate load to use.
My cast alloy is about Lyman #2 although at the moment have Winchester hard shot in ingots but it needs a bit more tin I think to cast properly.
Photo of my Hoch mould and the cast 400 grainers from it.

Edited by CptCurl (19/05/13 09:37 PM)

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VonGruff
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: eagle27]
#229375 - 28/04/13 05:15 PM

Quote:

My cast alloy is about Lyman #2 although at the moment have Winchester hard shot in ingots but it needs a bit more tin I think to cast properly.

Eagle , The Win hard shot is more likely to have an antimonial and or arsnic hardening and I would be more inclined to cut it with Pb and with your sizing to .425 should stand up to the 63gn 2209 quite nicely and be similar to my 50/50.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: VonGruff]
#229381 - 28/04/13 09:20 PM

VonGruff & Eagle27
Thanks gents for the info especially the "plinker" load!
With Red Dot how much would 21gn take up in the .404 case? must be only a very small amount; do you need a filler like shot buffer/dacron for this load?
Also for the 63gn load would you need some sort of filler for it also as it seems below the 75% rule or am I missing something here?
I would hate to get a ringed chamber - but obviously if it works in 2 very diferent rifles then you got yourselves a convert!

As a query to all out there with the CZ's what is the "nominal" groove diameter .422" (like the Woodies), or .423" (10.75x73) for their .404's - I can't find any info in this regard anywhere?
Will keep you informed when the loads are done.
Cheers & good hunting!
93x64mm

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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229402 - 29/04/13 07:16 AM

Red Dot is not position sensative and so the low load levels are no concern at all in the 404 case, and with the 63gn 2209 load being at about 69% it is high enough in the case to prevent flashover. In my testing I used a wool wad over the powder untill it got up to 57gn or over the 55gn-60% threshhold I used for safety.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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eagle27
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Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: VonGruff]
#229416 - 29/04/13 04:38 PM

9.3x64 I get 1800fps out of the 63.0gr AR2209 load in my 404 which has a long throat. I use one wool wad over the powder and a CCI250 Magnum primer. I have shot this load without the wad but sometimes I got a very very slight ignition delay, or so it seemed to me, but with a wad I always get good ignition, again maybe the long throat has some effect.

Like VG I did not use a wad with the red dot load (VG sent me enough red dot for 10 or 12 rounds.
I have developed my own plinker load using 22.5grs Unique with the 350 gr cast bullet and no wad. i use Win LR primers with these plinkers.

Two targets below are 50m 3 shot groups on a good day using my 2x Leupold scope in an EER position on the Mauser. The bottom target is the 63.0gr AR2209 loading.

Edited by CptCurl (19/05/13 09:38 PM)

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: eagle27]
#229421 - 29/04/13 09:14 PM

Eagle27 & VonGruff
Thanks for the help gents & insight into some reduced loads.
This alone could be a topic all by itself with (pistol/rifle) powders for all these big cartridges for simple practice or finishing shots, something for the real reloading gurus to get there teeth into & enlighten us not so "educated" folks.
I've been reloading for over 30 years.........still things to learn & to try!
Kind regards
93x64mm

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Spud303
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Loc: ACT, Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229616 - 02/05/13 06:11 PM

93x64mm, I used to shoot cast in my Ruger No.1 in .404. As I recall it had a bore of .422 and I used a NEI .421-390 gr GC sized to .423 in a CBE push thru sizing die with Hornady .44 GC. The Ruger had a long throat and this projectile (cast hard, approx Lyman #2 alloy) shot quite well at around 1,800 fps. Still have the mould & sizer (see #233 .421-390 page 9 of the NEI Handtools online catalog), drop me a PM if you are interested.
Spud

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: Spud303]
#229626 - 02/05/13 10:49 PM

Spud303, sorry mate but I don't think you can't help me!
With BGR we require a 400gn pill at 2100fps to make the energy grade - shame as I want to cast this one for both hunting & competition. Everything I seem to look at doesn't get to that diameter or weight (.423/.424" & 400+ gns); you'd think there'd be enough .404's here to warrant a mould/sizers of this size.

CBE here only makes up to a 385gn pill & whether I can get one made heavier here is Oz is debatable. I've had a mate enquire on my behalf - not sure as of yet as he's had no real reply yet.

One thing I'd like to try (for hunting) is resizing .44 cal pistols bullets down to .422", but this would be only for pigs etc & not buffalo - I'd only use Woodies for those.

If I get a Lee type sizer I'd have to do it in 3 steps .429" to .426", .426" to .423" & .423" to .421" - they supposedly spring back .001" hence going lower. At least if I get a .423 sizer then I can use them for the cast ones as well.
Any ideas gents?
93x64mm

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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229649 - 03/05/13 06:55 AM

If you have an energy requirment that needs the 400gn bullet at 2100fps then I presume that 3916 is suficient according to this calculater
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
If I put in the figures for my 350gn bullet at 2363fps I get 4338ft/lb energy and if I go further and use the ht 90/10 that I ran to 2415fps with 87gn 2209 then the energy figure raises to 4531ft/lb
That makes the 400gn at 2100 fps quite a light load and so getting to the required energy figures with my 350gn bullet would be quite simple.
Hock mould 06610 425 345 to my design on 5-18-08.
I would not hesitate to use this bullet on a buff as the chambered round but might have some of my woodies under it to follow if necessary.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (03/05/13 06:58 AM)

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: VonGruff]
#229670 - 03/05/13 09:01 PM

VonGruff/Eagle27,
You certainly have some good loads out there, the only problem is that I need BOTH the energy requirement & the weight requirements - hence my predicament!
Is your .424/400gn Hoch mould a standard mould that he does; as it doesn't appear to be in any of his list of moulds?
Lucky bugger if you get the chance to use on a Buff........& yes I'd still have a few Woodies in the mag just in case too!
Still haven't got my dies or cases yet or heard back yet on anyone yet, just have to learn to be patient!
Thanks gents, if you find out anything thing please let me know!
Kind regards
93x64mm

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VonGruff
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229692 - 04/05/13 08:29 AM

I believe that many of the 404 shooters are using the ultra mag case to fire form back to 404 for thier plinkin loads.
As far as Hock moulds go, mine at least was a custom mould but I believe they keep the mould data on hand because I have sent some of my bullets to a couple of other 404 shooters and they have had a mould made as well using the ID numbers from my mould. When I sent my data I stipulated the weight and the mould was made to give the required weight. By asking for a 400gn weight with straight ww then lengthened drive bands would more than likely get you there as 50 gn is not much to pick up in weight. I know I get 10-15 gn just by adding Pb to my alloy.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (04/05/13 08:31 AM)

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eagle27
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: VonGruff]
#229732 - 05/05/13 06:38 PM

My 400 gr mould was custom, I just stipulated .424 plain base mould that would cast 400gr with Lyman #2. looking at the ID numbers on the mould it was made in April 1984 which would be about the right vintage when I ordered the mould. In hindsight I should have got it made for gas checks (44cal) but I can put a shoulder on the cast bullets for gas checks now using my pullet puller die and collet to hold the bullets in a small lathe.
Photo below of the collet/die setup, where once in the lathe chuck the bullets index the same each time into the collet using a long socket through the lathe centre to open and close the collet for each bullet.
While it is an extra step I can modify quite a few per minute so doesn't take long to get a batch ready for standard 44cal gas checks which size down easily in the Lyman 450 lube/sizer.

Edited by CptCurl (19/05/13 09:39 PM)

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: eagle27]
#229736 - 05/05/13 09:30 PM

Eagle27 & VonGruff, Can I get you to verify your 400gn Hoch mould No for me please?
The only variation that I'll ask for will be for a gas check to be added; and if possible could you supply the drawing for all us .404 users?
Smart idea using a collet to do your gas checks!
Many thanks!
93x64mm

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VonGruff
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229762 - 06/05/13 10:13 AM

Confirmation of my mould number as Hock mould 06610 425 345 to my design on 5-18-08.
Note that if using this mould number you should ask for the 2 drive bands to be lengthened to give a weight of 400 gns rather than 350gn.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: VonGruff]
#229779 - 06/05/13 09:38 PM

VonGruff/Eage27/Spud303, Thanks for your info & help; will follow up with Hoch moulds & see how your lengthened bands idea goes.
Hopefully I will have some info of my own back for you in regards to your data in my rifle.
This is what these forums are all about, sharing data & experience rather than reinventing the wheel over & over again - or until I have another question or 3!
Kind regards, many thanks, God bless
93x64mm

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JFE
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#229935 - 11/05/13 10:03 AM

FWIW Jim at CBE can tinker with his existing designs too. I had him extend the base of his 45/70 Gould design and add a GC shank. All up the mods added approx 60 grs in solid form to his regular design. I also had him make a HP pin with several size pins, so I could produce solids or various HP bullets. It cost a bit to have made up but it is a very versatile mould.

You could design one yourself on the Mountain Molds site - at least that way you could design exactly what you want. I understand Accurate Molds will also adjust their designs to accommodate changes to the extent possible. So a few options for you.

As mentioned Buckshot on castboolits makes sizers and suppliers like Buffalo Arms are likely to have the sizers that you need.

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: JFE]
#229941 - 11/05/13 01:34 PM

JFE, having terrible strife wit out internet at present in NQ, will have to give CBE another bell & see if he'll do it
Ta
93x64mm

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Homer
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Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#233002 - 27/07/13 09:38 AM

G'Day Fella's,

9.3 x 64, a word of advice with regard to your sizing die!
I measured the bore of my .404 Jeff (Douglas Prem)and found it to have a groove diameter of 0.4248"!!!

I then machined up a sizing die of the appropriate diameter (I think it was 0.4258"?) to suit this bore, and my RCBS lube/sizer!

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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eagleyes
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Posts: 26
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: Homer]
#233003 - 27/07/13 10:00 AM

9.3x64
For a RCBS type sizing die try Buffalo Arms in the states. About $US46 if I remember correctly. A mate with a 9.3x64 recently got one, good gear and had it within two weeks.

For a mould try NOE (Night Owl Enterprises) in the states. Above mate got a five cavity mould for his 9.3 for about $90. Two, three and four cavity also available off the shelf at the time. There may also be the possibility of having some cavities hollow pointed and some without gas check. Really good design and shoots great, plus the mould comes with a top punch to suit mould for the RCBS/Lyman lubrisizers.

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eagleyes
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 26
Loc: Queensland, Australia

Re: .423" lube sizer dies to suit .404 Jeffery [Re: eagleyes]
#233028 - 27/07/13 07:54 PM

9.3x64

Just checked and NOE does not list size you require. Try Mountain Moulds, no catalogue if I remember, but you design your own mould, size, weight etc.

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