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Caprivi
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Hubertus ???
      #228846 - 16/04/13 11:59 AM

Interesting rifle. Not a 88, but a ????

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11602594/g...rfus-custom-8mm



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Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 05:26 AM)


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StephenCoker
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #228848 - 16/04/13 12:47 PM

Haenel? I think I've got a Lyman 36 that needs one of those under it.

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Caprivi
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #228853 - 16/04/13 02:04 PM

Duh' yeah I guess it could be that....:):):)
I knew there was a "88" pattern action with a flat bottom metal and for whatever reason was drawing a blank on what it was.

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Igorrock
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #228855 - 16/04/13 03:41 PM

Nice rifle ! Itīs a pity that the original magazine bottom plate missing.

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Buchsemann
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #228874 - 17/04/13 12:14 AM

Gents,

Here is what the gun is, in German...

So you know "Hubertus" is a trade name used by Imman Meffert - Suhl. Hopefully Kuduae or one of our other members fluent in German can translate the details.



Mark

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Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 05:26 AM)


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: Buchsemann]
      #228875 - 17/04/13 12:34 AM

This rifle is no Haenel, neither a Modell 1900 nor a 1909. It lacks all the earmarks of the Haenel models: there is no gas flange on the cocking piece.
The bolt stop / ejector is of the standard M88 design.
The flush magazine is too narrow to be of staggered design, so it is single file, about 2 shots.
Here are (again) two photos of Haenel actions for comparision, M1900 on top and M1909 bottom.


Perhaps someone can post the corresponding auction photos?
IMHO it is a custom rifle on a standard M88 action, modified with a flush magazine, shotgun style triggerguard and ds trigger. As "Hubertus" was the trademark of the Immanuel Meffert company, Steinweg 22, Suhl, the rifle was built by that gunmaker.
BTW, the "25-35" 6.5x52 rimless cartidge, DWM case # 519A,mentioned in the catalog is better known as the .25 Remington. The .25-35 Winchester aka 6.5x52R was case # 519.

Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 05:27 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #228876 - 17/04/13 12:43 AM

Quote:

Haenel? I think I've got a Lyman 36 that needs one of those under it.



The firing pin nuts of the Haenels and the M88 are interchangeable, so your peep sights should fit all three actions, M88, 1900, 1909.


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lancaster
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #228880 - 17/04/13 01:30 AM

first thing we do is to safe the pics






























its not the first Meffert/Suhl Hubertus rifle we had on Nitroexpress, this on had an original magazine plate











the Hubertus rifle must have been in production sometimes between 1900 and 1914. I wonder where Meffert got the M 88 receiver perhaps they bought them by Haenel or Schilling, never heard that Meffert made M 88 actions. I am sure this one is in 8x57I!

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Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 05:29 AM)


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2152hq
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #228914 - 17/04/13 12:06 PM

Too bad the bottom plate's a replacement. Neat rifle anyway.
I like classics, but don't mind custom sporter conversions.



Thanks for the pics of the 1900 & 1909 (Steyrs(?)

I have one of each and was lead to believe they were Model 1900 or 'New Model' Steyr rifles.
A failed Military contract for China,,the remaining actions remodeled into sporters.
Whatever,,they are unique and beautiful sporting rifles.




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kuduae
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: 2152hq]
      #229153 - 22/04/13 01:35 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the pics of the 1900 & 1909 (Steyrs(?)
I have one of each and was lead to believe they were Model 1900 or 'New Model' Steyr rifles.
A failed Military contract for China,,the remaining actions remodeled into sporters.
Whatever,,they are unique and beautiful sporting rifles.



B--ls--t! These are not "Steyrs made for export", nor are they "remodeled into sporters"! The M1900 and M1909 sporting rifles were built from scratch by C.G.Haenel, Bahnhofstr.16, Suhl, Germany! Even most Suhl made sporting rifles on M88 actions are not converted ex-military actions, but are legitimate commercial sporters the same as original Mauser Oberndorf commercial sporting rifles, Lee-Speeds or Remington model 30, 30S and 720. Of course, Haenel strived for military contracts too, but only succeeded to sell a few M1909 rifles in military configuration to Paraguay and China.

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lancaster
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #229159 - 22/04/13 03:06 AM

dont forget the 7mm carbines for mexico


I think most of the plain basic sporters were made using surplus rifles. no doubt about the rifles with miliary stocks or sporterized military stocks.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 05:29 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #229163 - 22/04/13 04:24 AM

Well, these are M88 military rifles the Suhl gunmakers sold to many countries in South America besides China, new made in Suhl. After production of M88 military rifles for the German Army ended the Suhl makers of these rifles and actions, V.C.Schilling, G.C.Haenel and many subcontractors, were out of domestic military orders but sat on all machinery and fixtures to make these actions. So they tried successfully to get foreign military contracts for M88 military rifles. Haenel sold such new-made M88 rifles and carbines to China, South America, the Boer Republics and Abyssinia at least. As they had all the equipment to make these rifles they could easily undersell the more modern M98 rifles made by Mauser and DWM. Though some sporters, especially the low grades, may have been made on surplused ex-military actions, the better M88 sporters were built on new-made Suhl actions IMHO, especially the Haenel marked M88 sporters. BTW V.C.Schilling did not survive for long; After 1900 they made pistols for Bergmann and bicycles. In 1914 they sold their factory to Sempert & Krieghoff. Note that those "Mexican" M88 carbines in 7x57 show no signs of German military acceptance stamps. instead, they bear German commercial proofmarks. So they were not surplused ex-German military carbines rebarreled to 7x57, but new-made for an export contract. See Paul S.Scarlata's book "German Gew.88 "Commission" Rifle", page 134. The carbine shown there also has a commercial checkered cocking piece and a stiker nut with a small gas deflector flange on the left side.

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kuduae
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #229167 - 22/04/13 05:47 AM

BTW, the 1911 ALFA (Adolf Frank, Hamburg)export catalog "Arms of the World", page 453 offered several categories of Kar88 military configuration M88 carbines:
"entirely new made, case hardened bolt" with or without double set triggers, in 8x57I, 7x57 and 9x57. Prices fob Hamburg from US$ 95.- to 110.-.
Government surplus, 8x57 only, as is: $ 56.-
Government surplus,8x57, reworked, reblued and refinished $ 62.- with ds trigger added $ 72.-
So in 1911 new made M88 actions and carbines like the Mexican one shown by lancaster were still available on the commercial market.


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2152hq
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #229182 - 22/04/13 10:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for the pics of the 1900 & 1909 (Steyrs(?)
I have one of each and was lead to believe they were Model 1900 or 'New Model' Steyr rifles.
A failed Military contract for China,,the remaining actions remodeled into sporters.
Whatever,,they are unique and beautiful sporting rifles.




B--ls--t! These are not "Steyrs made for export", nor are they "remodeled into sporters"! The M1900 and M1909 sporting rifles were built from scratch by C.G.Haenel, Bahnhofstr.16, Suhl, Germany! Even most Suhl made sporting rifles on M88 actions are not converted ex-military actions, but are legitimate commercial sporters the same as original Mauser Oberndorf commercial sporting rifles, Lee-Speeds or Remington model 30, 30S and 720. Of course, Haenel strived for military contracts too, but only succeeded to sell a few M1909 rifles in military configuration to Paraguay and China.






Turn the heat down,,no need to over cook!
All I said was what I was told that's all.... 'Actions' remodeled in to sporters (sporting rifles).

But you do admit they did have a failed Military contract with China and the 1909 Model though....so there was a China link to the rifles in there some place.
Succeeding in selling only a few rifles (to China) would be a failed Military contract,,making use of what was not sold to China would be using them in the building of sporting rifles. My guess was it was only the actions were of use to Haenel and their commercial market at that point.


Just asking.
..do you know where the term 'New Model' or 'Neu Model' fits (or doesn't) in when describing these particular rifles.
Is that something Haenel used or something the collectors have decided fits. I've seen it used more than once.

Also the 1911 ALFA catalog reprint shows these in 3 or 4 different configurations and as a '1904 Model' IIRC.
Just looking to untangle their history that doesn't seem to be in print anywhere.

As I said,,nice rifles just the same,,,,
I'll go stare at my Steyr Neu Model 1904 rifles now.


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kuduae
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: 2152hq]
      #229224 - 23/04/13 05:00 AM

2152hq, none of the rifles you mention was designed or made in Steyr. "Steyr" in the first place is a city in Austria. Josef Werndl founded his gun factory there in 1864. The company was converted to a joint stock company named "Oesterreichische Waffenfabriks Gesellschaft AG, Steyr" = Austrian Arms Manufacturing Company plc in Steyr, conveniently shortened to OeWG Steyr or "Steyr" only. F.von Mannlicher became chief designer, later director of that company. About 1900 the OeWG Steyr was the largest gunmaker worldwide, supplying many armies with rifles and carbines of many different designs and models. So, If your rifle is marked "Steyr 1904" on the left receiver wall, it is one of their other models made in 1904. Steyr inscribed the model year on the receiver ring, often scrubbed off by the British importers who sporterized many M92-M95- M1900 -1903 Mannlicher and Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles from the military production runs.
The "Mauser Mod.1904" you found in the military rifle section of the 1911 ALFA catalog, page 17, is an entirely different action. It is the Mauser-Vergueiro, made by DWM, Berlin in large numbers for the Portuguese army, cal. 6.5x58P, and in small numbers for Brazilian military police units, cal. 7x57.
The Haenel sporters discussed here were made neither in Steyr nor in Berlin, but in Suhl, Germany. You are right, the 1911 Alfa catalog shows on pages 454 and 455 seven grades of sporters on M88 actions and on page 460 three grades of the Haenel "1909" rifles.According to an original 1909 Haenel catalog these are the lower Haenel grades Nr. 5,6 and 7 only. If you look close, the ALFA pics still show the 1900 model. It was expensive to produce new cuts for a catalog, not worthwhile to show "minor" differences.
The designation "New Model Mannlicher -Haenel" for the flush-magazine Haenels was an invention of the American importers, f.i. A.H.Funke, New York. The monicker "Neues Modell" is a re-translation, never used in Germany.


Funke and Tauscher already imported Haenel rifles on M88 actions for several years. As the M88 action used a Mannlicher-type 5 round enbloc clip, the importers called these rifles "Mannlicher Haenels". After Haenel brought out the flush-magazine M1900 they simply called this the "new model". Some US ads even invented a "model 1902" just to show that it was a new item they offered. My old friend Lud Olson knew only such American ads for the "New Model" and the "model 1909" designation from the ALFA catalog. As he had seen only three such rifles in all his life, he was not aware of the fact that there were two different Haenel models, 1900 and 1909. In his book "Mauser Bolt Rifles" he even wondered why the model name was "1909", but such rifles were advertized some years earlier. I found out about the real model history from German sources and told him the facts, but Lud passed away before he could rewrite the story for future editions. As most American gunwriters take Lud's book as gospel the designations "new model Mannlicher-Haenel" and "Model 1909" stick in American literature.

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Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 05:30 AM)


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2152hq
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #229232 - 23/04/13 06:34 AM

Thank you for the information.
I had guessed from recollection at the '1904' designation of the rifle in the ALFA catalog,,bad recollection on my part. It was the 1909 designation.
I'm familiar with the Portugese Verguerio (sp) having owned a couple of those but the designation didn't click in.

I had a feeling the 'New Model' was a collectors designation. The rifles being so uncommon to begin with people tend to pick up the tag/name from the dealers and collectors as gospel.
It's easier than saying 'I don't really know what this thing is'.
I still see the rifles listed as 'Model 88' and occassionally even a 'Mauser' when you do see one.
A nice 9x57 version at the last few Ohio Gun Collectors meetings I've been to.

I realize Steyr is the city though 'Steyr' is common use for the mfg'r,,I don't think there are many that would even recognize Austrian Arms Manufacturing Co. if you told them you had a firearm made by them.
Collectors talk and layman chatter I guess.

I just acquired 2 more Mannlicher Schoenauer project rifles. A 1903 commercial carbine that someone took apart, lost a few pieces and started to restock. The other a British made sporter on a Greek 1903 that needs a bit of help but is really not all that bad shape. 256Gibbs Magnum caliber.

I figure they are all well worth the time and effort to bring back to usable condition.

Thank you again for the onfo and the pics.
I do appreciate it.


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kuduae
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #229233 - 23/04/13 06:38 AM

The short chapter in Lud Olson's book "Mauser Bolt Rifles" was the only info available on the Haenel rifles until an article about them in "Der Waffenschmied Nr.33", a publication of the German Gun Collectors Association, 6 years ago. Still available from the bookstore, www.germanguns.com

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Edited by kuduae (23/04/13 08:02 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Hubertus ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #229256 - 24/04/13 02:49 AM

The Haenel 1900 and 1909 rifles have 5-shot, staggered double row magazines, while the Meffert "Hubertus" conversions of M88 actions feature limited capacity, single stack magazines only. Why? The Haenels are not merely "modified M88 actions". Though they look very similar above the wood, the covered, invisible is very different. Haenel receivers probably started out with a different forging to begin with, at least the machining was different, especially on the underside. Meffert had no access to the patented Haenel actions, so they had to do with standard M88 actions, unable to fit a two-row magazine to them. Here is a photo of the receiver bottoms, top M88, Haenel 1909 below.


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Edited by CptCurl (07/06/13 05:30 AM)


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