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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive
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StephenCoker
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Loc: AR, United States of America
An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle?
      #228526 - 11/04/13 12:54 PM

Here are a couple of photos taken of the Alexander Henry I brought back from the Tulsa Arms show this past weekend. Sorry for the poor quality of photos as it was done with my smart phone under horrible lighting. I'll include better photos here and on my site if there is any further interest.

The specifics:
Knox form marked "A. Henry Edinburgh". LSA manufactured. Forearm is of Alexander Henry's style with side panels and forend tip shaped in wood (as opposed to a horn tip done in such fashion). Butt stock is of standard military fashion with military butt plate; however, the grip has been checkered to match the forearm. Island base with 1 standing and 2 folding leafs. The ladder is missing, but I will get busy with making a replacement soon enough. Simple ramp front sight, that has had a very rudimentary front sight placed into it. I'll file up a proper caterpillar front sight once I shoot it with my favorite load of 215 grain Woodleighs, and get my calculations for the height correct. Safety is missing, but appears it was once there. 5 round magazine. No engraving. Military marks on the barrel as well.

It appears to be of a lower grade offering, but still exceedingly interesting in my book.

So, fellow Lee Speed aficionados, would this actually be an example of a Lee Metford that has been worked over by Alexander Henry as opposed to a commercial Lee Speed done so?







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Sarg
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #228551 - 11/04/13 07:57 PM

Very nice AH, if it has Military marks, it was most likely just done up by AH, has it got LSA on the butt socket with no year ?

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texan72
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Sarg]
      #228560 - 12/04/13 01:40 AM

very nice Lee, congrats on the find.

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StephenCoker
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: texan72]
      #228626 - 13/04/13 06:13 AM

Sarg,

It is marked LSA over 1894 on the butt socket.

Thank's 505texan. It will be a fun project to get back into proper shooting condition as it should be. I've taken several game animals with my BSA Lee Speed, so this one may have to be used next fall. Assuming I can get a new caterpillar filed up in between all of my other projects!

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2152hq
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #228634 - 13/04/13 07:00 AM

I think I saw that one at the OGCA show last month.
I was tempted but have too much to do now!

Looks like an SMLE bbl in place of the heavier MLE/MLM contour bbl.
They have the same thread,,same thread timing, the extractor cut is usually rounded on the later SMLE bbl,,squared bottom on the MLE/MLM bbls).
Birmingham proofs.

I suspect a cut down Military forend.
IIRC the butt stock was a Military style with a checkered grip on the rifle I saw at OGCA.
BSA did offer several styles of 'Officers' carbines for commercial sale using the military style butt stock w/checkering and better quality wood.

There should have been no side safety lever on these MLE/MLM rifles to begin with.
The blank cut out on the left side that is now empty was for the rear volley folding sight staff on the original Military rifle.
The forend was cut for sporter just to the rear of the front volley sight plate to elliminate that feature.

Safety on the Metford was the half cock notch (though the very earliest did have a side lever safety that was deemed un-necessary and quickly done away with).
Safety on the MLE was on the striker knob itself. A thumb activated lever.
The SMLE (re)introduced the left side safety lever.

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Sarg
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: 2152hq]
      #228670 - 13/04/13 04:22 PM

That tells us it was not a commercial action, but was a military action sporterized by Alexander Henry !

I like it very much with the AH features, I to would have grabed it up, would like it more with a sporter butt stock, what is the fore sight like ?

BSA had many grades of sporters & made most of what we call "Lee Speeds" & other companies put there names on them, mostly on the Dust covers, very few were put up by others on BSA supplied actions .

Some sporters were put together on military actions by some very fine smiths, most less known than Alexander Henry !

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Caprivi
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Sarg]
      #228697 - 14/04/13 03:52 AM

I like it Stephen, way cool. The "A Henry" sold me..........:)

A little tarting up by your able hands will make it a fine companion. As I know next to nothing about a Lee, I will/would take the word of the commentators, but no matter what parts are what, the sum is fine with me. Anything that sat on those south west facing work benches in Edinburgh is more than welcome to sit on my bench as well.

...........if my bench was ever so worthy.

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StephenCoker
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Caprivi]
      #228922 - 17/04/13 02:37 PM

Having extensively studied Scottish firearms, what follows are some observations and musings on the Scottish style in firearms that I believe may be of interest regarding this particular rifle (at least to me they are as a builder of rifles in such style).

As I was reassembling the Alexander Henry Lee, after a thorough cleaning, I noticed the file work and shaping of the trigger guard.

Now, Daniel Fraser was known for the exquisite application of his unique style to the firearms he laid his hands upon. He learned his trade from Alexander Henry. Along these lines, Fraser's treatment of the trigger guard in his magazine rifles is nothing short of pure sex appeal. The English and Scottish gentlemen I know in the gun trade even use a somewhat anatomical term for this treatment - "waisting".

Below is an example of Fraser's file work on a trigger guard:



Now, take a look at the trigger guard of this particular Alexander Henry magazine rifle, and notice a similar application of style. This Alexander Henry magazine rifle doesn't have the filed in shape giving it the appearance of a shotgun type guard that Fraser magazine rifles exhibit, but that there is a similar "waisting":








I find such details of style interesting as I've learned to wield a file and develop the necessary eye for detail to duplicate it. Even more interesting is the fact that Daniel Fraser had already left Henry's by 1894 (The date stamped on the butt socket of this Lee). So, was the apprentice influencing his former gaffor by this date?



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Caprivi
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #228954 - 18/04/13 02:06 AM

There are influences here for sure. The aformentioned forestock is a given. The the island being fitted to the rear most on the barrel, while not exclusive to, is indeed a Fraser-esk style. The "waisting" of this guard for sure could be comtributed as Daniel Fraser was the reigning master at the economy of mass.

The bottom metal of a Fraser bolt rifle is a wonderful, artful study of what time well spend on the Bench means.



Is there plans for a buttstock in a style fitting a Hill rifle ???

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Sarg
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Caprivi]
      #228971 - 18/04/13 07:44 AM

Man that rifle is very interesting & the more you show us the more I like it, could you show the fore sight please ?

Thank you very much for posting on it, just great !

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Caprivi
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Sarg]
      #229127 - 21/04/13 12:26 PM

..........Have heard that this maybe 1 of only 2 ????

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StephenCoker
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Caprivi]
      #229186 - 22/04/13 12:41 PM

Thanks Sarg. I think it's pretty interesting as well. Alexander Henry magazine rifles are exceedingly rare. Caprivi, I've only seen two examples, which doesn't necessarily mean much, though I'm attempting to have the records checked (at least what's left of the records).

As requested, below are photos of the front sight. The ramp is identical in shape to those found on Fraser's magazine rifles. Also, the placement of the ramp at about 1/4" back from the muzzle is the same treatment given by Fraser on his magazine rifles (and quite often his double rifles too). The dove-tailed blade is obviously not original. I'll correct it by filing up a proper "caterpillar" once I get the point of impact correct.







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Caprivi
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #229187 - 22/04/13 12:58 PM

Ha' so you think the repro Gemmer sight is not original ???
...Thanks for the close ups, nice stuff and indeed very interesting.

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Sarg
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Caprivi]
      #229196 - 22/04/13 06:58 PM

Thank you for the extra pic's, that was not the front sight I was expecting !

Do you have the dust cover for it, mostly see them missing when some one trys to mount a scope, then the action gets all drilled up to ?

I have 4 or more Lee Speeds/BSA sporters with no dust cover, but a bunch of holes !!

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StephenCoker
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Sarg]
      #229214 - 23/04/13 02:30 AM

No, unfortunately the dust cover is missing. I'm in the same boat with my other BSA Lee Speeds!

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StephenCoker
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #229413 - 29/04/13 12:41 PM

I was slugging the bore this afternoon and noticed the barrel band is made of damascus. Now that's something I haven't seen before! It's actually done in two pieces - the band itself then the sling eye attachment. In the second picture below you can just make out the solder joint line. The contrasting damascus band should make for a very unique look once I rust blue the barrel and properly re-brown the damascus band.





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Marrakai
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #229425 - 29/04/13 11:23 PM

Stephen:
Methinks a piece of old recycled shotgun barrel has been used as the basis for that barrel-band. Nothing gets wasted in a Scottish gun foundry......


Also, the dovetail blade front sight is likely a modification to regulate for the lighter Mk.VII Spitzer projectile. I have seen this type of mod on a few older rifles that would have been originally sighted for the 215gr bluff-nosed bullet.

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Marrakai
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Caprivi
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Marrakai]
      #229458 - 30/04/13 10:51 AM

Very cool, I like it. Hard to believe Alex Henry used scrap............

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StephenCoker
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: Caprivi]
      #229468 - 30/04/13 01:45 PM

Methinks you're exactly right, Marrakai! Those Scotmen were known to be a frugal lot. I suppose they couldn't help themselves all the time. Yes, Caprivi, even if his name was Alexander Henry. I imagine some shop foreman trying to figure out how to use up some left over or scrapped damascus tubes, and smiling at this little bit of ingenuity.

The barrel slugged at .3275". She's a tired old girl! All of my .303 loads on hand key-holed at 50 yards (150 grains on up to the proper 215 grain Woodleighs). So, do we:

1. Re-barrel and maintain the original .303 chambering?

or

2. Rebore and rechamber the existing barrel to .375 express?

I'm presently leaning towards option 2 as it means slightly less work, while maintaining a traditional cartridge known to be cambered in the Lee sporting rifles, and used by Scottish firms. See, I'm almost as frugal as a Scottish maker!

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MikeRowe
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #229480 - 30/04/13 10:29 PM

Probably the truth of the matter is there were always piles of old London guns laying around in the Edinburgh shops, after their owners had seen the error of their ways and sprung for a really good gun.

Made a great source of scrap......:)

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simonsaorsa
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: MikeRowe]
      #234992 - 02/09/13 05:55 AM

What did you end up doing with it?

I'd love to have a photo of the finished item to post on the LSA facebook page I run.

Simon

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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: An Alexander Henry Lee Metford Sporting Rifle? [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #261714 - 05/03/15 11:10 AM

Stephen:

Why not have a custom mould made by Accurate Moulds for what you need?

I've designed & had a dozen or so made by Accurate Moulds & have 6 more on the drawing board.

I've also got a few dust covers kicking around.

Regards,

Jim

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