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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets

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Al333
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Reged: 24/02/13
Posts: 287
Loc: B.C. Canada
lubing cast bullets
      #227757 - 31/03/13 04:20 AM

Hi! I just had a custom mold made for my 577-450 double rifle, it is .465 diameter. As there is not a sizer die made in this diameter I am planning on pan lubing. I have heard of different ways of melting the lube, over steam, in an oven, and on a electric stove burner. I know you don't want to get the lube to hot and burn it. So my question is what is the best way? Also I will be using SPG or an SPG type of black powder lube. Thanks for any help. Al

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Al333]
      #227759 - 31/03/13 05:43 AM

Al333,
I use a sauce pan with just enough water in it so a 2 pound coffee can approximatly half full of lube does not float. I slowly heat this on the stove until the lube is melted and pour it around the bullets I have standing upright in a 8x8 inch cake pan.
Once the lube has cooled I punch out the now lubed bullets, put the block of lube back into the cake pan, add more bullets and then heat this in a larger cake pan with just enough water so the pan with the unlubed bullets does not float. slowly heat this until the lube is melted, add more lube as needed and repeat the above steps until you have all your bullets lubed.

Hope this helps,

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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Al333
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Reged: 24/02/13
Posts: 287
Loc: B.C. Canada
Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #227761 - 31/03/13 09:39 AM

Matt; Thanks for the reply. sound like a good way, will probably give it a try. Al

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Idahoshooter
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Reged: 27/10/12
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Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Al333]
      #228475 - 10/04/13 11:32 AM

Al,
Buffalo Arms will make you a .465 diameter size die.


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Homer
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Idahoshooter]
      #230785 - 02/06/13 05:06 PM

G'Day Fella's,

I was recently reading an article/thread that originated from the "Cast Boolits" forum.
It appears they have spilled the beans on how the Australian Hard Cast bullet industry, have been coating their bullets!
They have been using a combination of the dry powdery product, that they use to "Powder Coat" items with, dissolved in Acetone! They apply this liquid to the "As Cast" bullets with a spray painting gun, and then bake it in an oven (375 to 400*F), to cure and set it prior to sizing the bullets!

They are achieving some impressive velocities (2000 + fps), without any sign of leading!!!
I will locate this again and attempt to post it here!

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Oldbrit
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Reged: 04/04/10
Posts: 381
Loc: UK
Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Homer]
      #230795 - 02/06/13 09:10 PM

Homer,
Do you think this is the same process:

http://www.ares-gun.sk/?lang=english

Edited by Oldbrit (03/06/13 05:50 PM)


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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Homer]
      #230825 - 03/06/13 12:49 PM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's,



They are achieving some impressive velocities (2000 + fps), without any sign of leading!!!
I will locate this again and attempt to post it here!



Doh!
Homer




2000fps is hardly above an amble for any of the suitable lubes and even a 60/40 bees wax/vaseline lube on my 350gn 404 bullets will easily see off 2365fps and over 2400fps from my 160gn 7x57. The fit of the bullet is of far more importance to the non-leading issue than the lube as no lube will make up for poor bullet fit while good bullet fit will trump a poor lube.

These hard lubes are more for the sake of the comercial caster so that the bullets will arrive at the customers doorstep without the lube being disturbed or transfered from the lube grooves to the nose af those bullets that rub against each other in transit. They will stay suitably intact in any heat or cold delivery conditions but are rarely the best solution to any lube needs.

The pan lube is simply done by a number of methods without a lubrisizer and even getting the lube liquid in the above mentioned water bath and then dip lubing them and setting them on a piece of board or an old oven try (or any convenient surface for that matter) and the lube will push out from under the base and they set like that. A fired cartridge case with the base cut off makes a suitable "cake cutter" to clean the excess lube of the sides of the bullet and you are set to go

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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DarylSModerator
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: VonGruff]
      #230843 - 04/06/13 04:53 AM

I also have used the 60:40 beeswax Vasaline lube and it worked fine in my .458 at 2,200fps with my WW bullets, hardened or as-cast.

The larger bores are not as particular to speed/pressure/lube as the smaller bores.

I use a hot plate - bullets on tray - pound the melted lube around them- adjusting the height is needed with more lube. Once totally melted and quite warm, I cut the heat and let the lube solidify.

I then use a ctg. case with the base drilled for a 3" long 1/4" or 3/8" bolt with a 'washer' or nut threaded on the end. The washer or nut is just under case mouth diameter.

I push this tool down over the bullet, 1/4 turn, and pull up. The bullet, inside the case neck, comes up with the 'cake cutter'.

I push with my thumb on the top of the bolt and it pushes the bullet out onto the table, base down and ready for loading. It's fast, non-messy and easy to set up.

When using a ctg. case as the cake cutter, the bullet's grooves are perfectly filled with lube.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 990
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #230938 - 07/06/13 01:37 PM

About to start casting (after a 25year break from casting pistol bullets) for my 500NE. I'll be using a beeswax/vaseline lube and have noticed that the ratio people use seems to vary between 60:40 to 75:25. How do people arrive at the best mix for them? Our summers here get relatively warm (low to mid 30s) so I thought a 75:25 mix would give a more "stable" mixture.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #230973 - 08/06/13 02:38 AM

People's mix is what shoots best or due to temps.

More beeswax makes for stiffer lube for warmer temps or perhaps higher speeds - more oil = softer lube.

I used 60:40 to good effect in my .458's as well as a black powder lube for my ctg. gun. The softer lube would be needed, I think, for softening black powder fouling. .50 2 1/10th - 10 shots, no wiping and ALL fouling pushed out with one dry patch - that's a lube that is working in that gun, with that load.

Yes I know, Vaseline is a petroleum product - but in concert with the beeswax - works to keep fouling soft.

I tried Olive Oil instead of the Vaseline and did not like it one bit, in comparison.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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iomskp
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Reged: 10/11/08
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Loc: Cairns Queensland Australia
Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #231048 - 10/06/13 09:06 PM

I have just done my first lot of powder coated bullets

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Homer
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: iomskp]
      #231999 - 02/07/13 09:45 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Sorry, I could be accused of being forgetful but not for forgetting!
Here is another link I found on this same subject, and this includes not only instructions but also images (I hope) etc!!!

Doh!
Homer

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Dolomite_Supafly
Post subject: Tumble powder coating instructions
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:16 pm
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Silent But Deadly
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:03 am
Posts: 427
Location: E. TN
Here is the way I do my tumble powder coating of bullets.

Here are the items you will need
Powder coating powder
For the powder I have tried expensive powders and cheap powder. They all seem to work equally well. I initially used Harbor Freight red and it worked well so I order a few other colors from Powder by the Pound. They arrived quickly and they were cheap in 2oz sizes. I made sure to order the 400 degree powder from PBTP.

Acetone
The acetone is just like you find at any hardware store. Nothing special but I would caution against using nail polish removed that is acetone as they tend to have other ingredients that might affect adhesion.

Container
For the container I found some small buckets at Walmart for $2 each. They seem to work well with the size batches I am doing. I think any container will work providing the acetone doesn't eat it.

Screen
I used 1/4" hardware clothe that is available at most home improvement stores. I cut a piece just big enough to fit in the oven then I rolled the edges up to keep the bullets from rolling off. I have a word of caution about the hardware cloth. These are generally zinc plated and zinc is bad for you if it gets too hot. There aren’t any fumes at 400 degrees but at 425 it was smoking.

Toaster oven
I bought one at Big Lot for $30 which is about the price for anywhere else. It needs to go to at least 400 degrees to work. Be careful as I have seen some that only went to 300 degrees. I will also caution against buying them used as the thermostat is what generally goes and you end up with a stove you cannot control the temperature on.

Mask
You need to have a filtered mask. Not a dusk mask but a mask that is designed to filter out fumes. I picked mine up a Harbor Freight for less than $20 and it works great.

Eye protection
I wear glasses so this is not an issue but I will say after every time I have done this I have spots on my glasses. So without eye protection you will likely get something in your eye.

*******************************************************************************************
Now onto the instructions

First I start by preheating the oven. I will put it on 400 degrees and set the timer for 15 minutes. It doesn't take 15 minutes to heat up that small oven.

I put on my mask and eye protection before opening either the acetone or the powder. The powder can be as harmful as the acetone until the powder is baked on so ALWAYS wear your mask.

Now I choose the color I want to use and add it to the bucket first. Here is how much powder I put in the bucket for ~100-150 bullets. You definitely want to add enough to coat the bullets. I normally add 2-3 scoops of powder using a 1.9 Lee dipper to measure. This is generally enough to do a batch of 100-150 bullets, depending on the size of the bullets.
Image

Next I add the acetone to the powder. This is generally how much acetone I use. There is no scientific measuring method for this but I will say you want too much rather than too little. If you have too much it adds a few minutes to the tumbling and evaporating time but if you add too little the bullets will come out blotchy and dull.
Image
At this point I begin to swirl the mixture around. If you have some clumps you can add 5-10 bullets to help break them up before adding the rest of the bullets.

After the mixture is nice and uniform I add the bullets and begin tumbling by hand.
Image

At this point I begin to lightly shake the mixture up. I generally do a back and forth motion with a swirl every 2-3 times around. I will also kind of flip the bullets end over end like you do when flipping a pancake.

You want to tumble them just vigorously enough to coat the bullets with the mixture. And you continue to shake, and shake and the bullets will not looked coated at all. They will have a light tinge of color but the silver is definitely shining through. Then finally the acetone begins evaporating and the amount of time is dependent on how much there is as well as the temperature. And it will not evaporate very quickly if you do not tumble. You can actually set the bucket down for 30-45 minutes and they will still need to be tumbled. But tumbling will evaporate the acetone enough within 5 minutes of constant tumbling. And as the acetone evaporates the bullets get more and more color.

And when the bullets seem to be holding on to the color this is a critical time. You want to dump the bullets while they are still wet, but not too wet, but definitely do it before they get too dry. If the acetone evaporates too much the bullets will not have a wet look and will actually have a dull, rough finish. It doesn't affect performance from testing but it does look like crap.

At this point the bullets should be uniformly covered with color AND still wet to the touch. There should be some of the mixture in the bottom of the bucket and on the bullets that is about the consistency of Testor's paint. It should still run from gravity and if the bullets have color but the coating is still running in the bottom of the bucket then it is time to dump the bullets. Another big indicator for me is the sound of the tumbling bullets. The sound changes slightly as the bullets are trying to move against the resistance of the thicker coating.

This is how they should look right before dumping them out onto the screen. They should be uniform in color, still wet to the touch and still shiny. (Sorry for the crappy picture).
Image

I do not have a picture but you dump them out onto the screen. Then I give them a quick shake to try to keep some from sitting on top of others. At this point the bullets will dry very quickly and I give them a quick shake every 30 seconds or so until dry. After about 2-3 minutes they will be dry to the touch and not be tacky. When they are dry I separate the bullets as best as I can on the screen so none of the bullets are touching while they bake.

Then I stick the bullets and screen into the toaster oven which is set to 400 degrees. I set the timer and let the bullets bake for 10-15 minutes depending on the size of the bullets and how they are looking. As they bake they will become a little shinier than when they were dry. Once they are uniform in how shiny they all look I carefully remove them from the oven.
Image

And this is how they will look coming straight out of the oven, shiny.
Image

I set them out to cool for 10 minutes or so. The powder coat will be tacky when they first come out and will remain tacky for 3-5 minutes until they have cooled enough to allow the powder coat to harden. After that you can touch the bullets but be careful because they will still be extremely hot. And if you touch them while they are still tacky they can stick to your finger, ask me how I figured that one out.

After that you can either shoot them as they are or size them down depending on your application. Sizing them does not remove the finish at all. The coating seems to add about .002" to the size of the bullets. So if you have bullets that are the same size or .001" over the bore size as cast then they will not need to be sized after they are coated. If the bullets are any larger as cast then you might try sizing them down to .002" over the bore size.

I have personally pushed these to over 2,000 fps without any issues. As a matter of fact the bore seems a lot cleaner than with jacketed or cast and lubed. I have read of people pushing them to 2,800 fps without issue.

The advantages are that the bore never leads. It is also cleaner. And the biggest advantage is it encapsulates the lead to prevent exposure. This is something I will be doing with all my cast bullets. And I am not 100% positive they need to be baked.

Here is a bag on its way to a friend:
Image

And finally, if you have ANY questions feel free to ask.

Be prepared to mess up a couple of batches in the beginning. They are not ruined, they are just not pretty. They work just as well as the pretty ones.

Now I am running out of bullets to powder coat until I shoot and cast some more.

_________________
16" McGowen SS barrel
Paladin SS gas block
Pistol length gas system
.093" gas port


Last edited by Dolomite_Supafly on Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Homer]
      #232914 - 25/07/13 06:42 PM

G'Day Fella's,

The thing we need to contemplate with these powder "Coated Bullets" is, in theory you can apply this coating to pure lead bullets and still obtain up to 2000 (Leading Free) fps velocities!
You wont achieve that with any other cast bullet, this side of Paper Patching!!!

The reason I'm interested in this coating method, is for it's use with bullets traveling at Sub-Sonic velocities! Whilst in most situations head shots are generally taken, some of my customers want to be able to chest shoot animals (with a suppressed centrefire rifle), and obtain good bullet expansion at these low velocities.

This coating method, may be the answer to this problem?
Only time will tell..........

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
Posts: 189
Loc: Vic, Australia
Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Homer]
      #240828 - 18/01/14 08:35 PM

@ Homer,
I tried a spray can of 'Pot belly black' from Bunnings on a friend's .452, 230gr Lee cast projjies.
stood them upright and gave a coat ,air dry 24 hours, 2nd coat. dry 24hrs
then popped them in the BBQ for about 20 min.
Came out good looking, withstood the 'acetone wipe' test, lost a few flecks on the smash test.I am awaiting results from my friend-old mate's been busy with a few things.
I do not have a dedicated oven to heat treat correctly, and realise that its more fun and therapeutic, to make lubes the OLD way
I surmise the electrostatic method will give the best results, going by the mounting body of evidence.
However, it may be worthwhile contacting HI-TEK who manufactuers the product here in Oz. ( he posts often on CB, you can PM him)

Cheers

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"


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DarylSModerator
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: eljefedouble]
      #240843 - 19/01/14 04:39 AM

That is quite a process, Homer - thanks for posting it. I think I will stick with bullet lubes and paper patching. Thanks though.
One off-shoot in lubes I did try and achieved excellent accuracy results was MS. Moly bullet spray coating. Lyman and other companies sell it as well.

No leading, no lubes - simply set the bullets on a sheet of paper and spray them all over with the moly, let them dry, load and shoot. I used a base was of card stock.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #257122 - 24/11/14 10:19 AM

I am going down the powder coating path and this is my first try with the cheap electrostatic PC gun.
I have done some 310 Cadet bullets by tumblimg them in a solo cup with some airsoft balls to generate the static to get the powder to adhere to the bullet. It works OK but moving them from the cup to the baking sheet causes scratches and is tedious.
The coverage with the gun is definitely better but there is a lot of lost powder on the foil. I think I can place them closer together but with such tall bullets I was worried about getting good coverage on the sides. I say "a lot" but really, it is not that much powder. If I get a full sized oven and place the bullets closer together I feel the loss will be minimal.
These are plain based bullets as cast which I will size to .410" and shoot at normal cast velocities although I am tempted to run a few at full speed and see how they do. The PC bullets can take full velocity normally but most guys are using gas checked bullets either coated before the check or with the check.
I may throw a lubed wad in there just to protect the base.

They started about .408" and now measure .411-.412" so I might be laying it on a little heavy with the gun.
Sure look nice though.

On the way into the toaster oven.


I think they are looking pretty darn good!


These 310 Cadet bullets were dry tumbled in the solo cup


More 310 Cadet but done with the gun. Ignore the two wrinkly ones there.


--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Huvius]
      #257149 - 25/11/14 02:28 AM

Do they measure the same after baking?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Loc: Colorado
Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #257155 - 25/11/14 05:08 AM

The .408" is the bare lead bullet. There is no way to measure post coating and before baking since the color is literally powder. The .411-.412 measurement is after cooking but they were a little warm still.
I will re-measure them tonight and see what they come out at. There should be no problem resizing the coated and baked bullets and I will report that once my .410" sizer gets here. Others have reported no issues resizing and the smash test shows no flaking or loss of the color coating.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Huvius
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Re: lubing cast bullets [Re: Huvius]
      #257207 - 26/11/14 04:06 AM

I have measured a few of them and they are averaging .4105" now.
I also was able to peel some of the blue off of the non-stick foil and it measures .001" in the thick spots so I think the bullets are getting a similar coating.
I will resize them but I am not even sure that is needed except maybe helping them to become more concentric.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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