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Morten
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W.J. Jeffery History
      #22730 - 28/12/04 03:11 AM

Hi Fellas.
A friend of mine have bought a Jeffery shotgun. and then he asked me about the history of this firm. But it appeard that I actually did not have much info in my books about it. Does anyone here have some interesting story to tell about Jeffery,. the history of the firm ect??


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #22773 - 29/12/04 05:48 AM

Morten,

Just a cut and paste job here. You could also mail Paul Roberts who owns the name now. He was an extremely helpful man when I wrote an article for India Today Plus in 1998 when he owned Rigby.


www.internetgunclub.com
Name W J Jeffery
Other Names Jeffery & Davies; WJ Jeffery & Co; WJ Jeffery & Co Ltd
Address 1 60 Queen Victoria Street
Address 2 60 Queen Victoria Street (13 King Street, St James's) (1 Rose and Crown Yard)
Address 3 26 Bury Street, St James's
Address 4 9 Golden Square, Regent Street
Address 5 5b Pall Mall
Address 6 23 Conduit Street
Address 7 18 Bruton Street
City/Town London
County
State/Region/Province
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Other Address
Dates 1888-date
Notes
William Jackman Jeffery was born in 1857. He was probably a member of the large Jeffery family who had gun making businesses in a number of towns in southern England.
He may have been apprenticed in one of the family firms, but it is highly likely he was apprenticed at P Webley & Son.

In 1884 he lived at 42 Great Castle Street, Regents Circus (Piccadilly Circus) close to W & C Scott's premises at 10 Great Castle Street, at this stage he may have been working for them.

In 1885 he patented a barrel inspection device (No. 124335).

In 1886 in a patent application with Edgar Harrison he described himself as a gun salesman, he was probably working for Cogswell & Harrison at the time. The patent was for a vernier and windgauge rifle sight.

In 1887 Philip Webley appointed him Manager of Webley's proposed London showroom, and left him to finalise the lease on premises at 60 Queen Victoria Street. For whatever reason, Jeffery had the lease drawn up in his own name rather than the company name but this was only discovered in 1888 after the death of Philip Webley. Thomas William Webley, who was then running the firm, terminated the agreement (presumably a partnership agreement) between Jeffery and the company and abandoned the idea of a London operation.

In 1890 Jeffery formed a partnership with a man by the name of Davies, presumably in order to raise capital, and Jeffery & Davies started trading from 60 Queen Victoria Street. This partnership was short lived and in 1891 the firm was renamed W J Jeffery & Co.

At some time between 1891 and 1914 the firm became a limited company and may have remained so throughout its life(although they may not have put their full and proper name on their gun case labels and elsewhere). Alternatively, they may have given up limited liability at some time (voluntary liquidation for the purpose of restructuring?). There are reports that W J Jeffery first acquired limited liability in 1953 but this obviously wrong, and if they did acquire limited liability in 1953 this would have been the second time.

In 1898 the firm opened additional retail premises at 13 King Street, St James's, and a year or so later a workshop at 1 Rose and Crown Yard, which was near to the King Street shop.

In 1900 a patent (No. ?) was granted for a vertical post graticule in a telescope sight, and another (No. ?) for an aperture sight mounted on the bolt of a Mauser rifle.

In many countries at the end of the 19th century there were substantial numbers of Martini Henry .577/.450 rifles, and in India and the Sudan there was some opposition to British rule. These rifles in the wrong hands were an obvious risk. The government therefore banned the import of cartridges, cartridge cases and bullets of this calibre into these countries. In direct response to the ban Jeffery developed his .475 cartridge which competed with Holland's .500/.465 and Westley Richards .476 cartridge.

The firm was mainly known for its rifle expertise especially double barrel rifles, reportedly they made many large calibre rifles and probably half the 150 or so .600 rifles made worldwide. The firm was the first to make a rifle in this calibre in 1902. They made over 30 .600 double barrel rifles and about 24 single barrel rifles.

The firm also introduced the .400 Jeffery, the .404 Jeffery, and the .450 No.2 Nitro. Because of its flat trajectory and penetration their .333 nitro express cartridge was used during the First World War to deal with German snipers who used armour plate to protect themselves.

Jeffery's single barrel rifles won several competitions at Bisley. The firm made a wide range of shotguns and used the South London Shooting Grounds for fitting and lessons.

In 1909 W J Jeffery died, he was only 52 years old, and his brother, Charles Jeffery took over the business.

In 1914, at the start of the First World War, the King Street shop was replaced by a smaller shop at 26 Bury Street, St James's, and the workshops at Rose and Crown yard closed. At this time the firm described themselves as wholesale and retail gun makers.

In 1920 Charles Jeffery died and his nephew, F Jeffery Pearce took over. The Queen Victoria Street premises closed in 1921, and in 1927 the firm moved to 9 Golden Square, Regent Street. At this time B Halliday was working for the company, he left to open his own business.

In 1953 the firm became a limited liability company, W J Jeffery & Co Ltd, and in 1955 moved to 5b Pall Mall.

In 1957 Westley Richards (Agency) Co Ltd took over the business and moved it to 23 Conduit Street.

In 1959 Holland & Holland took over and the company's address changed to 13 Bruton Street, they held the records of the company but these are now held by J Roberts & Son of London who also have a licence to manufacture under the Jeffery name.

Other Info
The firm sold shotgun cartridges under the names "The Champion", "The Sharpshooter", "The Club Smokeless", "The Jeffery Cartridge", "Jeffery's XXX", "The Ejector" and "High Velocity.














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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #22793 - 29/12/04 09:44 AM

W. J. Jeffery was, in practice, a retailer. It is now known that most of the double rifles were built by Harry Leonard and most of the shotguns are said to have come from John Saunders, both Birmingham firms. Jeffery offered everything from the most utilitarian boxlocks to the very best stocked-to-the-fences London pattern sidelocks. I've never handled a Jeffery gun that wasn't at least solid quality. I handled a Jeffery best sidelock 12 bore a few years ago that was as good as anybody's.

Holland & Holland sold the Jeffery records and name some years ago and the buyer leased the rights to the Jeffery name to J. Roberts & Son, London (former owners of J. Rigby & Co.) in 2000. If I got the story straight, the buyer was an American and the records are here in the US. You're supposed to access the records through J. Roberts & Son, but a recent request to them was unanswered.
-----------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #22807 - 29/12/04 11:38 AM

In his joint patent application with E. Harrison (of Cogswell and Harrison) on January 29, 1886 for a Vernier and Wind Gauge Sight Adjuster, William Jackman Jeffery described himself as a “Gun Salesman”, and that is what he was!

After a bitter falling out with P.Webley where he was the manager, Jeffery set up business during 1887 at the age of thirty, and was soon in trouble for such devious practices as “recycling” barrels from other makes and representing them as new, by having the original names struck off and re-engraved.

Just how many guns Jeffery made is unknown – it is possible that he made none, preferring to source from the trade. Early on, the Birmingham maker Thomas Turner Jr made most of Jeffery’s rifles, but I have seen one .333 double that has obvious European origins. H. Leonard & Co seems to have been his major source of shotguns, and most his Falling Block actions came from the Belgium maker Francotte, but some came from Webley and Scott and others. They were finished by firms such as Thomas Turner, Richard Ellis, H. Leonard, Webley & Scott and Charles Osborne. He even retailed Sharps single shot rifles.

Jeffery was basically co-ordinator, buying in parts, and sending them out to out-workers for assembly.

Perhaps, his best contribution is as a cartridge designer, his crowning acheivement being the .600 NE, but he played around with most bore sizes, .500 being a notable exception.


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ALF
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22819 - 29/12/04 04:34 PM

In reply to:

Perhaps, his best contribution is as a cartridge designer, his crowning acheivement being the .600 NE, but he played around with most bore sizes, .500 being a notable exception.





What about the 404 !

With some 24 500 Jeffery rifles in total ( 21 by Jeffery and 3 by Gibbs all built by Leonard and the less than 60 or so 600's these calibers pale against the 404 for bolt guns.

and likely / arguably the crowning glory in double guns the 450/400


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #22822 - 29/12/04 05:40 PM

ALF
In reply to:

arguably the crowning glory in double guns the 450/400




My original post was referring to what I would regard as Jeffery's enduring legacy - his contribution to cartridge design, rather than as an innovative gunmaker. As such, the .600 bore was his sole preserve.

I would say that his 450/400 3" was a variant on what pre-existed, and the .404 Jeffery Magnum was perhaps Jeffery's answer to the earlier .425 WR Magnum; similarly for the .333 Rimless as a follow on from Westley's .318. As a result of your researchs his .500 Rimless seems to have been a minor deviation of the 12.7X70 Schuler, but it would be a stretch to call it a Jeffery development. He did not do anything in flanged .500 bore cartidges for doubles or singles.

Leaving aside the numbers of rifles sold in the various chamberings; in the context of the technology of the 1902/3 period, I reckon his .600 cartridge was his standout achievement.


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ALF
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22824 - 29/12/04 06:19 PM

Interesting point you make and certainly one for debate but I would put it to you if you say the word Jeffery, 99% of the shooting public will say 404 in the next breath.

As someone who grew up in Africa around gun minded folk my first and enduring thoughts on the word Jeffery went to the 404. It was in terms of DG riflery the magic word.

It was bar Uganda the rifle of choice for government game departments and from this point it became the choice of many home boys. ( Uganda used the 425 WR as their choice caliber for government work.

Just a month ago I recieved confirmation from the now owners ( heirs to the family business of Westley Richards) that they supplied various game departments with literally hundreds of standard grade rifles and thus on number alone the 425 outnumber in terms of popularity any of the other cartridges Jeffery was involved with bar of course the 404.

Today you really need to look for a 425 in Africa whilst the 404 in original form is quite common.

Many modern day American hunters view the Double rifle as synonomous with African hunting but if you look at the total number of rifles built by each of the noted gunmakers you would certainly see that the majority of these guns found their way to India and not Africa. It was the writers of the 50's that really put that notion into word and put the double on the African pedestal.


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DoubleD
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #22829 - 30/12/04 12:46 AM

Wal Winfer's British Single Shot Rifles Volume 4 is titled Jeffery and the Trade Farquharsons with notes on Nitro Cartridges Although the primary focus of this volume is the Farquharsons, there is a good deal of Jeffery history.



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DD, Ret.


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Morten
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: DoubleD]
      #22833 - 30/12/04 02:47 AM

What can I say?? mostly like nothing. you are amasing friends. Extremly interesting though. Keep it commin!

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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #22834 - 30/12/04 03:35 AM

Kynamco/Kynoch have the copy of the 1913 jeffery catalog, it is a must.

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #22853 - 30/12/04 10:09 AM

In reply to:

if you look at the total number of rifles built by each of the noted gunmakers you would certainly see that the majority of these guns ( Double Rifles )found their way to India and not Africa




Can't but agree! It was the fabulous wealth of the Indian Rulers that allowed them to persue their passion for British double rifles, since that sort of wealth just did not exist in Africa. That there are a few British doubles around today for us to aspire to the ownership of, is their peculiar legacy!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22927 - 31/12/04 08:43 AM

470,
On the copy of the Jeffery records I have seen at Champlin Firearms, almost all of the barreled actions were acquired from Leonard. Page after page listed Leonard.

I know Jeffery made very few if any.
As I understand from you that the actions were finished by this other maker for jeffery?

The best way to denote a leonard action is by the 4 digit number on the under rib near the barrel loop. There may also be a very small initial on the under rib at the barrel flats.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #22938 - 31/12/04 09:40 AM

Rusty

In reply to:

actions were finished by this other maker for jeffery?




There were quite a few British Gunmakers that made guns almost exclusively for the trade. Firms like Webley & Scott are well known as trade suppliers, but is is not often appreciated that there were a host of other gunmakers, such as as Osborne, Leonard, Saunders, Tranter, Turner, Ellis, Robertson (of Boss fame), etc., that made for the trade. These makers did sell some guns signed by themselves, but mostly they sold guns to other retailers in various states of finish from barreled actions to fully finished (engraved and signed). Some of these retailers might simply have been Ironmongers in small provincial towns wher they serviced a local market. My guess is that few double rifles were sold this way, which is why you see most double rifles carrying the names of more recognised firms. As well, a few retailers, Jeffery included indulged in such nefarious practices as re-using parts from guns made by other makers.

When you glance through "Gunmakers" sales ledgers, you have to realise that double rifles formed only a very small part of their business, and that shotguns were their mainstay. In the case of Jeffery, Leonard seems to have been his main supplier. Fellow Melbournite, Wal Winfer (author of the "British Singe Shot Rifles" series of books) spent many hours going through Jeffery's records when thet were in the posession of Holland and Holland, came to the conclusion that Thomas Turner Jr. of 8 Fisher Street, Birmingham was his major finisher of rifles, including doubles, bolt actions and single shots.

But, gundealers like Jeffery were businessmen, and if Supplier A could not meet a delivery schedule, then Supplier B would get the order. Or maybe the Retailer was behind in his payments with Supplier A and had his credit cut off!

In other words, the trade was pretty fluid, and there are no hard and fast rules as to who made what! It is possible that a "Wheeler and Dealer" like Jeffery bought in parts from other trade gunmakers in bulk and sent them out to other trade makers for finishing, rather than outworker actioners, stockers, engravers etc.

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source. But, it ought also be recognised that the pattern of sourcing would change over different timelines.



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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22951 - 31/12/04 11:27 AM


In reply to:

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source.



470,
I wonder how these Krupp Steel barrels got on my Leonard action A. Hollis and son 450/400 3 inch?

and this W.J Jeffery 475#2 Jeffery a Leonard action as well.


Not to take issue with you sir, of all the Leonard actions, including those provided to Jeffery that I have seen, all have sported KRUPP STEEL. All have had the Leonard digits that sequence with Jeffery/A. Hollis serial numbers.

Once again, I will atest to the records and rifles I have seen. Barreled actions for most of Jeffery's doubles rifles were largely supplied by Leonard.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #22956 - 31/12/04 12:20 PM

Rusty,
Not wishing to get into a pissing contest, all I can say is that Wal Winfer, a personal friend who has pored over more Jeffery records than we will in our lifetimes, has concluded that Turner was his major rifle finisher. For example, from one page of Jeffery's 1907/8 records, Wal found that Turner supplied 11 rifles in the Serial number range #18901-#18911.

You have also got to make a distinction between who supplied the parts (actions, barrels, furniture, sights etc.), and who did the finishing. Sometimes it may well have been the action supplier, but could equally have been someone else.

This does not exclude Leonard as a supplier or finisher, and perhaps at other times he may have taken precedence over Turner?

Whether the finisher bought the Krupp barrels in directly, or Jeffery did, and passed them on to be actioned and finished is a matter of conjecture, but Krupp is listed as the barrel supplier in a lot of Jeffery's ledger entries.

As you know, A. Hollis was an Indian based retailer, and seemingly has no direct connection with Jeffery. Perhaps he operated on the Jeffery business model, but I'm not sure what the relevence is here to the Jeffery "debate"?


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NE450No2
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22957 - 31/12/04 12:49 PM

Gentlemen,
While we are discussing double rifle mysteries, I have a little Jeffery related mystery of my own.
My 450 No2 is marked Edwinson Green and Sons. It has 28" bbls. The barrels are marked as Krupp just like Rustys double and other Jefferys I have seen. The action too looks just like a Jeffery action. The frond and rear sights are just like the ones I have seen on higher grade Jefferys including the 600 I saw in the flesh and other 600's that I have seen pictures of. Most Jefferys have a particular fit and feel to me when I shoulder them My E.C.G.&S [as it is marked on the bbl flats and the action water table] has this same feel. Jefferys all seem to fit me well.
The matte engraving on the sight rib [both front and rear] matches Jeffery doubles and the engraving on the dolls head is EXACTLY the same as some other Jefferys I have seen.
This rifle has a very nice well figured beautiful piece of wood, and the border engraving is nicer than on any Jeffery marked rifle I have seen, it is very well done.

Here is my theory


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22958 - 31/12/04 12:49 PM

Actually, A. Hollis and Son were of Mincing Lane and an earlier address with a Royal warrant from the Duke of Connaught, London.

Once again I don't wish to start a pissing match, but a statement of Krupp barrels excluding Leonard is a bit over the top. Leonard supplied to the trades. That's why my A. Hollis looks just like a W.J. Jeffery of the period. They were supplied by the same firm!

I'm sure your friend is most sincere his affection for double rifle.

I can only atest to what I have personally seen handled and learned from folks like 400 Nitro Express, George Caswell of Champlin Firearms, NE 450#2 and others.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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NE450No2
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #22962 - 31/12/04 01:03 PM

Here is my theory on my 450 No2.
I have done some research on Edwinson Green. He seems to be mainly a shotgun Maker. He added "Son" to the end of his trade name as his eldest son entered the business. When his second son entered the business he added tha "s" to Son. This occured around 1925. The proof marks of my rifle are from this period.My theory is that Green acquired my boxlock barreled action from Jeffery OR someone who was doing the finishing action/bbl work for Jeffery and did the stock work. I do not know if the engraving was done before it went to Green or he might have used someone who did his shotgun work. I have been unable to examine a Green shotgun.
Someone I cannot remember who told me they have seen other Green double rifles. My double does not have the usual Leonard numbers on the bbls.
I think maybe a good shotgun customer of Green had him make him a double rifle because he liked the shotgun(s) he had bought from Green.
If anybody has anything to add I would love to hear it, and I would love to see a picture of a Green shotgun and a Thomas Turner double rifle to compare the engraving.


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ALF
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23000 - 31/12/04 07:21 PM

Actually most here are correct in a way:

If the Jeffery double was built before 1908 ( actually between 1890? and 1908) likely Thomas Turner Jr. as finnisher but definitely not after 1912 as the company then ceased operations. ( I have two reputable sources stating the same) Thomas Snr was mainly a barrel maker and he had two sons James and Thomas Jr. both gunmakers.

As to the bolt guns:

I have the copies of the original Jeffery ledger entries as they pertain to the 21 Jeffery 500's from # 1 delivered in 1927 to the final rifle and the ledgers shows all to be finnished by H Leonard.


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #23052 - 01/01/05 05:09 AM

Alf could you please drop me an email. I have a Jeffery record Question.
rkmojo@aol.com

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Rusty
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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23069 - 01/01/05 08:51 AM

Gentlemen: I have followed this thread with keen interest, for I own a Jeffery double rifle, #22263, 333 Rimmed, scalloped action with full coverage scroll, made in December of 1912. The page from the Jeffery logbook for that period notes 5 double rifles having been completed and 5 double shotguns. The sidelock double rifles and sidelock shotguns, under the category "made by and date," list first the name of Leonard, followed by Rooke, Krupp, Sanders, Flavel and Price (not all the guns list all these names, usually it is H. Leonard followed by three or four of the other names). The boxlocks, both double rifles and double shotguns, list only Leonard as the maker. This is a page from 1912 and Turner is not mentioned, giving strength to the assumption that the firm had been disbanded by then. Thank you all for your dedication and scholarship on this fascinating subject. Sincerely, Keith McCafferty

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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23507 - 05/01/05 07:24 AM

Turner could not have been Jeffery's primary supplier of double rifles. Thomas Turner III became Master of the Birmingham Proof House in 1899 and closed the Birmingham factory soon after. The entries in the Jeffery records in 1907 - 1908 are undoubtedly Turner's last gasp. Turner's outlets in Reading and Newbury were then sold to Cording of Piccadilly and continued to operate under the Turner name, but the guns were retailed, having been built by others in Birmingham. This information is confirmed by Jack Rowe, a gunmaker who worked for Turner. He thought the suggestion that Turner was Jeffery's major source was pretty silly and then mentioned the "roughly 1900" factory closing.

The Leonard firm advertised itself in trade journals as express rifle specialists to the trade. Like P. Webley & Son (later Webley & Scott), Leonard built rifles for a long list retailers - Fraser, Manton, Jeffery, Cogswell, Pape, A. Hollis, etc. This was their stock in trade and they survived until 1965. The shaped back boxlock, as seen in Rusty's photo of the Jeffery .475 No. 2 is a Leonard trade mark of which there were several variations. The upper photo is of the barrels of his A. Hollis & Son .450/.400. He should post a picture of it from the same angle as the Jeffery. These two rifles are virtually identical because they are both from Leonard. The Hollis was simply ordered as a higher grade of the same gun. I've seen copies of the Jeffery records numerous times where someone had obtained such from Holland when researching a particular rifle. As Rusty and Keith state, it is page after page of "H. Leonard" in the "made by" column. Keith noted that the entry for boxlocks usually is "H. Leonard" only and that is my observation as well. I believe these guns to have been built complete by Leonard.

It is true that most (but not all) Jeffery rifles built prior to WWI had Krupp barrels. How this "excludes" Leonard is beyond me. This was due to Leonard, not Jeffery. Leonard rifles built for Jeffery had Krupp barrels, but so did the rifles Leonard built for others. I firmly believe that Leonard used Krupp rifle barrels exclusively until the war. Jeffery did order the first few .600 blanks directly from Krupp in 1901 and those rifles (four, if I remember correctly) were then built by Leonard. But then, since these were the first .600s, Leonard wouldn't have had any tubes in that caliber on hand.

Leonard was definitely Jeffery's primary double rifle supplier. Jeffery's retail volume prior to WWI was tremendous and undoubtedly outstripped the capacity of any one trade maker. I think the more likely explanation for the Turner entries in the Jeffery records is that while Leonard was providing most of the double rifles to Jeffery complete, he was also farming out barreled actions to Turner to finish in order to keep up and these rifles arrived at Jeffery from Turner, instead of Leonard.

No, A. Hollis & Son has no connection to Jeffery. The point Rusty was making was that they got their double rifles from the same maker. No, A. Hollis & Son wasn't an "India based retailer". A. Hollis & Son were successors to W. (William) & E. (Ebeneezer) Hollis, established Birmingham, 1796, Gunmakers to HRH the Duke of Connaught and HE the Viceroy. Yes, they had an outlet in India in the 1880s and 1890s as many other British makers did. They opened an outlet in London in Mincing Lane in 1897 and moved to Victoria Street in 1903 where they remained until 1919.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23514 - 05/01/05 10:33 AM

As per 400 Nitro's request

WJ Jeffery 475#2 Jeffery


A. Hollis and Son 450/400 3 inch




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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23561 - 06/01/05 12:01 PM

400NE
I think you guys are misconstrueing the points I have made in earlier posts!

As I said earlier, this doesn't have to be a pissing contest. If someone has something other than hearsay information, then well and good because I for one simply like to get the bottom of these issues.

Now, as for for Thomas Turners' business relationship with Jeffery!
In reply to:

The entries in the Jeffery records in 1907 - 1908 are undoubtedly Turner's last gasp




The current owners of the Thomas Turner name have confirmed that the records of the original firm have been lost, so this statement can only be supposition, in spite of Jack Rowes' assertion (how old is he?). As ALF has pointed out, Turner's business did fold in 1912, but we don't know precisely when he ceased to be Jeffery's primary finisher of rifles. As you rightly state, Jeffery's sales up to WWI was prodigious, and much of this business was never recovered after the war, particularly for double rifles since most of the skilled workers had been killed in that conflict, and by then the Mauser magazine rifle was in the ascendancy. But to give you (and other members)a "snapshot" of Turner's involvement in Jeffery's rifle business, here is an except from his Order Ledger in the pre-WW1 period;



It shows that Turner had a hand in all of the rifles listed, from Falling Block's in .22WCF, .256, .400S, .303, Martini's in .256, .303, a 303 Enfield, a .404 Mauser, and a .400S Double!

Jeffery may well have turned to other suppliers and finishers after Turner's demise, but there is no doubt that the success of Jeffery's rifle business was largely founded on the quality of the product that he sourced from Turner. To contend otherwise is ludicrous.

As for the numerical breakdown of finisher's of Jeffery's double rifles vis-a-vis Turner and Jeffery, since Turner's records are lost, and Leonard's also presumably gone, who really knows, apart from those that have accessed Jeffery's records? Even then, his Shop Ledgers are missing, and only his Order Ledgers survive. These do not give a complete picture of his operation, since they don't give complete details, only who he paid the bills to - so if the finisher made or bought in parts, such as barrels and actions, it is not itemised.

As for A.Hollis, here is a copy of page 122 of Wal Winfer's 3rd Volume in his "The British Single Shot Rifle" series of books;



If anyone has anything other than addresses on barrels or business addresses in England to support the contention that he was anything other than a gun retailer, in the mould of Jeffery (albeit primarily located in India), perhaps they could add to the sum total of knowledge on him??




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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23565 - 06/01/05 01:00 PM

In reply to:

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source.



I'm still trying to get past that one!

I don't see how you can discount Leonard as a major supplier? Visual evidence of the rifles, long with serial numbers alone establish that. No pissing contest, just trying to point out something factual.


I totally agree that A. Hollis and Son was a retailer, period. Just like Jeffery. Ideed they had an India shop, their business started in England.



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We band of brothers!

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