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Morten
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W.J. Jeffery History
      #22730 - 28/12/04 03:11 AM

Hi Fellas.
A friend of mine have bought a Jeffery shotgun. and then he asked me about the history of this firm. But it appeard that I actually did not have much info in my books about it. Does anyone here have some interesting story to tell about Jeffery,. the history of the firm ect??


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #22773 - 29/12/04 05:48 AM

Morten,

Just a cut and paste job here. You could also mail Paul Roberts who owns the name now. He was an extremely helpful man when I wrote an article for India Today Plus in 1998 when he owned Rigby.


www.internetgunclub.com
Name W J Jeffery
Other Names Jeffery & Davies; WJ Jeffery & Co; WJ Jeffery & Co Ltd
Address 1 60 Queen Victoria Street
Address 2 60 Queen Victoria Street (13 King Street, St James's) (1 Rose and Crown Yard)
Address 3 26 Bury Street, St James's
Address 4 9 Golden Square, Regent Street
Address 5 5b Pall Mall
Address 6 23 Conduit Street
Address 7 18 Bruton Street
City/Town London
County
State/Region/Province
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Other Address
Dates 1888-date
Notes
William Jackman Jeffery was born in 1857. He was probably a member of the large Jeffery family who had gun making businesses in a number of towns in southern England.
He may have been apprenticed in one of the family firms, but it is highly likely he was apprenticed at P Webley & Son.

In 1884 he lived at 42 Great Castle Street, Regents Circus (Piccadilly Circus) close to W & C Scott's premises at 10 Great Castle Street, at this stage he may have been working for them.

In 1885 he patented a barrel inspection device (No. 124335).

In 1886 in a patent application with Edgar Harrison he described himself as a gun salesman, he was probably working for Cogswell & Harrison at the time. The patent was for a vernier and windgauge rifle sight.

In 1887 Philip Webley appointed him Manager of Webley's proposed London showroom, and left him to finalise the lease on premises at 60 Queen Victoria Street. For whatever reason, Jeffery had the lease drawn up in his own name rather than the company name but this was only discovered in 1888 after the death of Philip Webley. Thomas William Webley, who was then running the firm, terminated the agreement (presumably a partnership agreement) between Jeffery and the company and abandoned the idea of a London operation.

In 1890 Jeffery formed a partnership with a man by the name of Davies, presumably in order to raise capital, and Jeffery & Davies started trading from 60 Queen Victoria Street. This partnership was short lived and in 1891 the firm was renamed W J Jeffery & Co.

At some time between 1891 and 1914 the firm became a limited company and may have remained so throughout its life(although they may not have put their full and proper name on their gun case labels and elsewhere). Alternatively, they may have given up limited liability at some time (voluntary liquidation for the purpose of restructuring?). There are reports that W J Jeffery first acquired limited liability in 1953 but this obviously wrong, and if they did acquire limited liability in 1953 this would have been the second time.

In 1898 the firm opened additional retail premises at 13 King Street, St James's, and a year or so later a workshop at 1 Rose and Crown Yard, which was near to the King Street shop.

In 1900 a patent (No. ?) was granted for a vertical post graticule in a telescope sight, and another (No. ?) for an aperture sight mounted on the bolt of a Mauser rifle.

In many countries at the end of the 19th century there were substantial numbers of Martini Henry .577/.450 rifles, and in India and the Sudan there was some opposition to British rule. These rifles in the wrong hands were an obvious risk. The government therefore banned the import of cartridges, cartridge cases and bullets of this calibre into these countries. In direct response to the ban Jeffery developed his .475 cartridge which competed with Holland's .500/.465 and Westley Richards .476 cartridge.

The firm was mainly known for its rifle expertise especially double barrel rifles, reportedly they made many large calibre rifles and probably half the 150 or so .600 rifles made worldwide. The firm was the first to make a rifle in this calibre in 1902. They made over 30 .600 double barrel rifles and about 24 single barrel rifles.

The firm also introduced the .400 Jeffery, the .404 Jeffery, and the .450 No.2 Nitro. Because of its flat trajectory and penetration their .333 nitro express cartridge was used during the First World War to deal with German snipers who used armour plate to protect themselves.

Jeffery's single barrel rifles won several competitions at Bisley. The firm made a wide range of shotguns and used the South London Shooting Grounds for fitting and lessons.

In 1909 W J Jeffery died, he was only 52 years old, and his brother, Charles Jeffery took over the business.

In 1914, at the start of the First World War, the King Street shop was replaced by a smaller shop at 26 Bury Street, St James's, and the workshops at Rose and Crown yard closed. At this time the firm described themselves as wholesale and retail gun makers.

In 1920 Charles Jeffery died and his nephew, F Jeffery Pearce took over. The Queen Victoria Street premises closed in 1921, and in 1927 the firm moved to 9 Golden Square, Regent Street. At this time B Halliday was working for the company, he left to open his own business.

In 1953 the firm became a limited liability company, W J Jeffery & Co Ltd, and in 1955 moved to 5b Pall Mall.

In 1957 Westley Richards (Agency) Co Ltd took over the business and moved it to 23 Conduit Street.

In 1959 Holland & Holland took over and the company's address changed to 13 Bruton Street, they held the records of the company but these are now held by J Roberts & Son of London who also have a licence to manufacture under the Jeffery name.

Other Info
The firm sold shotgun cartridges under the names "The Champion", "The Sharpshooter", "The Club Smokeless", "The Jeffery Cartridge", "Jeffery's XXX", "The Ejector" and "High Velocity.














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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #22793 - 29/12/04 09:44 AM

W. J. Jeffery was, in practice, a retailer. It is now known that most of the double rifles were built by Harry Leonard and most of the shotguns are said to have come from John Saunders, both Birmingham firms. Jeffery offered everything from the most utilitarian boxlocks to the very best stocked-to-the-fences London pattern sidelocks. I've never handled a Jeffery gun that wasn't at least solid quality. I handled a Jeffery best sidelock 12 bore a few years ago that was as good as anybody's.

Holland & Holland sold the Jeffery records and name some years ago and the buyer leased the rights to the Jeffery name to J. Roberts & Son, London (former owners of J. Rigby & Co.) in 2000. If I got the story straight, the buyer was an American and the records are here in the US. You're supposed to access the records through J. Roberts & Son, but a recent request to them was unanswered.
-----------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #22807 - 29/12/04 11:38 AM

In his joint patent application with E. Harrison (of Cogswell and Harrison) on January 29, 1886 for a Vernier and Wind Gauge Sight Adjuster, William Jackman Jeffery described himself as a “Gun Salesman”, and that is what he was!

After a bitter falling out with P.Webley where he was the manager, Jeffery set up business during 1887 at the age of thirty, and was soon in trouble for such devious practices as “recycling” barrels from other makes and representing them as new, by having the original names struck off and re-engraved.

Just how many guns Jeffery made is unknown – it is possible that he made none, preferring to source from the trade. Early on, the Birmingham maker Thomas Turner Jr made most of Jeffery’s rifles, but I have seen one .333 double that has obvious European origins. H. Leonard & Co seems to have been his major source of shotguns, and most his Falling Block actions came from the Belgium maker Francotte, but some came from Webley and Scott and others. They were finished by firms such as Thomas Turner, Richard Ellis, H. Leonard, Webley & Scott and Charles Osborne. He even retailed Sharps single shot rifles.

Jeffery was basically co-ordinator, buying in parts, and sending them out to out-workers for assembly.

Perhaps, his best contribution is as a cartridge designer, his crowning acheivement being the .600 NE, but he played around with most bore sizes, .500 being a notable exception.


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ALF
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22819 - 29/12/04 04:34 PM

In reply to:

Perhaps, his best contribution is as a cartridge designer, his crowning acheivement being the .600 NE, but he played around with most bore sizes, .500 being a notable exception.





What about the 404 !

With some 24 500 Jeffery rifles in total ( 21 by Jeffery and 3 by Gibbs all built by Leonard and the less than 60 or so 600's these calibers pale against the 404 for bolt guns.

and likely / arguably the crowning glory in double guns the 450/400


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #22822 - 29/12/04 05:40 PM

ALF
In reply to:

arguably the crowning glory in double guns the 450/400




My original post was referring to what I would regard as Jeffery's enduring legacy - his contribution to cartridge design, rather than as an innovative gunmaker. As such, the .600 bore was his sole preserve.

I would say that his 450/400 3" was a variant on what pre-existed, and the .404 Jeffery Magnum was perhaps Jeffery's answer to the earlier .425 WR Magnum; similarly for the .333 Rimless as a follow on from Westley's .318. As a result of your researchs his .500 Rimless seems to have been a minor deviation of the 12.7X70 Schuler, but it would be a stretch to call it a Jeffery development. He did not do anything in flanged .500 bore cartidges for doubles or singles.

Leaving aside the numbers of rifles sold in the various chamberings; in the context of the technology of the 1902/3 period, I reckon his .600 cartridge was his standout achievement.


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ALF
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22824 - 29/12/04 06:19 PM

Interesting point you make and certainly one for debate but I would put it to you if you say the word Jeffery, 99% of the shooting public will say 404 in the next breath.

As someone who grew up in Africa around gun minded folk my first and enduring thoughts on the word Jeffery went to the 404. It was in terms of DG riflery the magic word.

It was bar Uganda the rifle of choice for government game departments and from this point it became the choice of many home boys. ( Uganda used the 425 WR as their choice caliber for government work.

Just a month ago I recieved confirmation from the now owners ( heirs to the family business of Westley Richards) that they supplied various game departments with literally hundreds of standard grade rifles and thus on number alone the 425 outnumber in terms of popularity any of the other cartridges Jeffery was involved with bar of course the 404.

Today you really need to look for a 425 in Africa whilst the 404 in original form is quite common.

Many modern day American hunters view the Double rifle as synonomous with African hunting but if you look at the total number of rifles built by each of the noted gunmakers you would certainly see that the majority of these guns found their way to India and not Africa. It was the writers of the 50's that really put that notion into word and put the double on the African pedestal.


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DoubleD
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #22829 - 30/12/04 12:46 AM

Wal Winfer's British Single Shot Rifles Volume 4 is titled Jeffery and the Trade Farquharsons with notes on Nitro Cartridges Although the primary focus of this volume is the Farquharsons, there is a good deal of Jeffery history.



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DD, Ret.


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Morten
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: DoubleD]
      #22833 - 30/12/04 02:47 AM

What can I say?? mostly like nothing. you are amasing friends. Extremly interesting though. Keep it commin!

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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #22834 - 30/12/04 03:35 AM

Kynamco/Kynoch have the copy of the 1913 jeffery catalog, it is a must.

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #22853 - 30/12/04 10:09 AM

In reply to:

if you look at the total number of rifles built by each of the noted gunmakers you would certainly see that the majority of these guns ( Double Rifles )found their way to India and not Africa




Can't but agree! It was the fabulous wealth of the Indian Rulers that allowed them to persue their passion for British double rifles, since that sort of wealth just did not exist in Africa. That there are a few British doubles around today for us to aspire to the ownership of, is their peculiar legacy!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22927 - 31/12/04 08:43 AM

470,
On the copy of the Jeffery records I have seen at Champlin Firearms, almost all of the barreled actions were acquired from Leonard. Page after page listed Leonard.

I know Jeffery made very few if any.
As I understand from you that the actions were finished by this other maker for jeffery?

The best way to denote a leonard action is by the 4 digit number on the under rib near the barrel loop. There may also be a very small initial on the under rib at the barrel flats.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #22938 - 31/12/04 09:40 AM

Rusty

In reply to:

actions were finished by this other maker for jeffery?




There were quite a few British Gunmakers that made guns almost exclusively for the trade. Firms like Webley & Scott are well known as trade suppliers, but is is not often appreciated that there were a host of other gunmakers, such as as Osborne, Leonard, Saunders, Tranter, Turner, Ellis, Robertson (of Boss fame), etc., that made for the trade. These makers did sell some guns signed by themselves, but mostly they sold guns to other retailers in various states of finish from barreled actions to fully finished (engraved and signed). Some of these retailers might simply have been Ironmongers in small provincial towns wher they serviced a local market. My guess is that few double rifles were sold this way, which is why you see most double rifles carrying the names of more recognised firms. As well, a few retailers, Jeffery included indulged in such nefarious practices as re-using parts from guns made by other makers.

When you glance through "Gunmakers" sales ledgers, you have to realise that double rifles formed only a very small part of their business, and that shotguns were their mainstay. In the case of Jeffery, Leonard seems to have been his main supplier. Fellow Melbournite, Wal Winfer (author of the "British Singe Shot Rifles" series of books) spent many hours going through Jeffery's records when thet were in the posession of Holland and Holland, came to the conclusion that Thomas Turner Jr. of 8 Fisher Street, Birmingham was his major finisher of rifles, including doubles, bolt actions and single shots.

But, gundealers like Jeffery were businessmen, and if Supplier A could not meet a delivery schedule, then Supplier B would get the order. Or maybe the Retailer was behind in his payments with Supplier A and had his credit cut off!

In other words, the trade was pretty fluid, and there are no hard and fast rules as to who made what! It is possible that a "Wheeler and Dealer" like Jeffery bought in parts from other trade gunmakers in bulk and sent them out to other trade makers for finishing, rather than outworker actioners, stockers, engravers etc.

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source. But, it ought also be recognised that the pattern of sourcing would change over different timelines.



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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22951 - 31/12/04 11:27 AM


In reply to:

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source.



470,
I wonder how these Krupp Steel barrels got on my Leonard action A. Hollis and son 450/400 3 inch?

and this W.J Jeffery 475#2 Jeffery a Leonard action as well.


Not to take issue with you sir, of all the Leonard actions, including those provided to Jeffery that I have seen, all have sported KRUPP STEEL. All have had the Leonard digits that sequence with Jeffery/A. Hollis serial numbers.

Once again, I will atest to the records and rifles I have seen. Barreled actions for most of Jeffery's doubles rifles were largely supplied by Leonard.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #22956 - 31/12/04 12:20 PM

Rusty,
Not wishing to get into a pissing contest, all I can say is that Wal Winfer, a personal friend who has pored over more Jeffery records than we will in our lifetimes, has concluded that Turner was his major rifle finisher. For example, from one page of Jeffery's 1907/8 records, Wal found that Turner supplied 11 rifles in the Serial number range #18901-#18911.

You have also got to make a distinction between who supplied the parts (actions, barrels, furniture, sights etc.), and who did the finishing. Sometimes it may well have been the action supplier, but could equally have been someone else.

This does not exclude Leonard as a supplier or finisher, and perhaps at other times he may have taken precedence over Turner?

Whether the finisher bought the Krupp barrels in directly, or Jeffery did, and passed them on to be actioned and finished is a matter of conjecture, but Krupp is listed as the barrel supplier in a lot of Jeffery's ledger entries.

As you know, A. Hollis was an Indian based retailer, and seemingly has no direct connection with Jeffery. Perhaps he operated on the Jeffery business model, but I'm not sure what the relevence is here to the Jeffery "debate"?


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NE450No2
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22957 - 31/12/04 12:49 PM

Gentlemen,
While we are discussing double rifle mysteries, I have a little Jeffery related mystery of my own.
My 450 No2 is marked Edwinson Green and Sons. It has 28" bbls. The barrels are marked as Krupp just like Rustys double and other Jefferys I have seen. The action too looks just like a Jeffery action. The frond and rear sights are just like the ones I have seen on higher grade Jefferys including the 600 I saw in the flesh and other 600's that I have seen pictures of. Most Jefferys have a particular fit and feel to me when I shoulder them My E.C.G.&S [as it is marked on the bbl flats and the action water table] has this same feel. Jefferys all seem to fit me well.
The matte engraving on the sight rib [both front and rear] matches Jeffery doubles and the engraving on the dolls head is EXACTLY the same as some other Jefferys I have seen.
This rifle has a very nice well figured beautiful piece of wood, and the border engraving is nicer than on any Jeffery marked rifle I have seen, it is very well done.

Here is my theory


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22958 - 31/12/04 12:49 PM

Actually, A. Hollis and Son were of Mincing Lane and an earlier address with a Royal warrant from the Duke of Connaught, London.

Once again I don't wish to start a pissing match, but a statement of Krupp barrels excluding Leonard is a bit over the top. Leonard supplied to the trades. That's why my A. Hollis looks just like a W.J. Jeffery of the period. They were supplied by the same firm!

I'm sure your friend is most sincere his affection for double rifle.

I can only atest to what I have personally seen handled and learned from folks like 400 Nitro Express, George Caswell of Champlin Firearms, NE 450#2 and others.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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NE450No2
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #22962 - 31/12/04 01:03 PM

Here is my theory on my 450 No2.
I have done some research on Edwinson Green. He seems to be mainly a shotgun Maker. He added "Son" to the end of his trade name as his eldest son entered the business. When his second son entered the business he added tha "s" to Son. This occured around 1925. The proof marks of my rifle are from this period.My theory is that Green acquired my boxlock barreled action from Jeffery OR someone who was doing the finishing action/bbl work for Jeffery and did the stock work. I do not know if the engraving was done before it went to Green or he might have used someone who did his shotgun work. I have been unable to examine a Green shotgun.
Someone I cannot remember who told me they have seen other Green double rifles. My double does not have the usual Leonard numbers on the bbls.
I think maybe a good shotgun customer of Green had him make him a double rifle because he liked the shotgun(s) he had bought from Green.
If anybody has anything to add I would love to hear it, and I would love to see a picture of a Green shotgun and a Thomas Turner double rifle to compare the engraving.


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ALF
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23000 - 31/12/04 07:21 PM

Actually most here are correct in a way:

If the Jeffery double was built before 1908 ( actually between 1890? and 1908) likely Thomas Turner Jr. as finnisher but definitely not after 1912 as the company then ceased operations. ( I have two reputable sources stating the same) Thomas Snr was mainly a barrel maker and he had two sons James and Thomas Jr. both gunmakers.

As to the bolt guns:

I have the copies of the original Jeffery ledger entries as they pertain to the 21 Jeffery 500's from # 1 delivered in 1927 to the final rifle and the ledgers shows all to be finnished by H Leonard.


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: ALF]
      #23052 - 01/01/05 05:09 AM

Alf could you please drop me an email. I have a Jeffery record Question.
rkmojo@aol.com

--------------------
Rusty
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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23069 - 01/01/05 08:51 AM

Gentlemen: I have followed this thread with keen interest, for I own a Jeffery double rifle, #22263, 333 Rimmed, scalloped action with full coverage scroll, made in December of 1912. The page from the Jeffery logbook for that period notes 5 double rifles having been completed and 5 double shotguns. The sidelock double rifles and sidelock shotguns, under the category "made by and date," list first the name of Leonard, followed by Rooke, Krupp, Sanders, Flavel and Price (not all the guns list all these names, usually it is H. Leonard followed by three or four of the other names). The boxlocks, both double rifles and double shotguns, list only Leonard as the maker. This is a page from 1912 and Turner is not mentioned, giving strength to the assumption that the firm had been disbanded by then. Thank you all for your dedication and scholarship on this fascinating subject. Sincerely, Keith McCafferty

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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23507 - 05/01/05 07:24 AM

Turner could not have been Jeffery's primary supplier of double rifles. Thomas Turner III became Master of the Birmingham Proof House in 1899 and closed the Birmingham factory soon after. The entries in the Jeffery records in 1907 - 1908 are undoubtedly Turner's last gasp. Turner's outlets in Reading and Newbury were then sold to Cording of Piccadilly and continued to operate under the Turner name, but the guns were retailed, having been built by others in Birmingham. This information is confirmed by Jack Rowe, a gunmaker who worked for Turner. He thought the suggestion that Turner was Jeffery's major source was pretty silly and then mentioned the "roughly 1900" factory closing.

The Leonard firm advertised itself in trade journals as express rifle specialists to the trade. Like P. Webley & Son (later Webley & Scott), Leonard built rifles for a long list retailers - Fraser, Manton, Jeffery, Cogswell, Pape, A. Hollis, etc. This was their stock in trade and they survived until 1965. The shaped back boxlock, as seen in Rusty's photo of the Jeffery .475 No. 2 is a Leonard trade mark of which there were several variations. The upper photo is of the barrels of his A. Hollis & Son .450/.400. He should post a picture of it from the same angle as the Jeffery. These two rifles are virtually identical because they are both from Leonard. The Hollis was simply ordered as a higher grade of the same gun. I've seen copies of the Jeffery records numerous times where someone had obtained such from Holland when researching a particular rifle. As Rusty and Keith state, it is page after page of "H. Leonard" in the "made by" column. Keith noted that the entry for boxlocks usually is "H. Leonard" only and that is my observation as well. I believe these guns to have been built complete by Leonard.

It is true that most (but not all) Jeffery rifles built prior to WWI had Krupp barrels. How this "excludes" Leonard is beyond me. This was due to Leonard, not Jeffery. Leonard rifles built for Jeffery had Krupp barrels, but so did the rifles Leonard built for others. I firmly believe that Leonard used Krupp rifle barrels exclusively until the war. Jeffery did order the first few .600 blanks directly from Krupp in 1901 and those rifles (four, if I remember correctly) were then built by Leonard. But then, since these were the first .600s, Leonard wouldn't have had any tubes in that caliber on hand.

Leonard was definitely Jeffery's primary double rifle supplier. Jeffery's retail volume prior to WWI was tremendous and undoubtedly outstripped the capacity of any one trade maker. I think the more likely explanation for the Turner entries in the Jeffery records is that while Leonard was providing most of the double rifles to Jeffery complete, he was also farming out barreled actions to Turner to finish in order to keep up and these rifles arrived at Jeffery from Turner, instead of Leonard.

No, A. Hollis & Son has no connection to Jeffery. The point Rusty was making was that they got their double rifles from the same maker. No, A. Hollis & Son wasn't an "India based retailer". A. Hollis & Son were successors to W. (William) & E. (Ebeneezer) Hollis, established Birmingham, 1796, Gunmakers to HRH the Duke of Connaught and HE the Viceroy. Yes, they had an outlet in India in the 1880s and 1890s as many other British makers did. They opened an outlet in London in Mincing Lane in 1897 and moved to Victoria Street in 1903 where they remained until 1919.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23514 - 05/01/05 10:33 AM

As per 400 Nitro's request

WJ Jeffery 475#2 Jeffery


A. Hollis and Son 450/400 3 inch




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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23561 - 06/01/05 12:01 PM

400NE
I think you guys are misconstrueing the points I have made in earlier posts!

As I said earlier, this doesn't have to be a pissing contest. If someone has something other than hearsay information, then well and good because I for one simply like to get the bottom of these issues.

Now, as for for Thomas Turners' business relationship with Jeffery!
In reply to:

The entries in the Jeffery records in 1907 - 1908 are undoubtedly Turner's last gasp




The current owners of the Thomas Turner name have confirmed that the records of the original firm have been lost, so this statement can only be supposition, in spite of Jack Rowes' assertion (how old is he?). As ALF has pointed out, Turner's business did fold in 1912, but we don't know precisely when he ceased to be Jeffery's primary finisher of rifles. As you rightly state, Jeffery's sales up to WWI was prodigious, and much of this business was never recovered after the war, particularly for double rifles since most of the skilled workers had been killed in that conflict, and by then the Mauser magazine rifle was in the ascendancy. But to give you (and other members)a "snapshot" of Turner's involvement in Jeffery's rifle business, here is an except from his Order Ledger in the pre-WW1 period;



It shows that Turner had a hand in all of the rifles listed, from Falling Block's in .22WCF, .256, .400S, .303, Martini's in .256, .303, a 303 Enfield, a .404 Mauser, and a .400S Double!

Jeffery may well have turned to other suppliers and finishers after Turner's demise, but there is no doubt that the success of Jeffery's rifle business was largely founded on the quality of the product that he sourced from Turner. To contend otherwise is ludicrous.

As for the numerical breakdown of finisher's of Jeffery's double rifles vis-a-vis Turner and Jeffery, since Turner's records are lost, and Leonard's also presumably gone, who really knows, apart from those that have accessed Jeffery's records? Even then, his Shop Ledgers are missing, and only his Order Ledgers survive. These do not give a complete picture of his operation, since they don't give complete details, only who he paid the bills to - so if the finisher made or bought in parts, such as barrels and actions, it is not itemised.

As for A.Hollis, here is a copy of page 122 of Wal Winfer's 3rd Volume in his "The British Single Shot Rifle" series of books;



If anyone has anything other than addresses on barrels or business addresses in England to support the contention that he was anything other than a gun retailer, in the mould of Jeffery (albeit primarily located in India), perhaps they could add to the sum total of knowledge on him??




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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23565 - 06/01/05 01:00 PM

In reply to:

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source.



I'm still trying to get past that one!

I don't see how you can discount Leonard as a major supplier? Visual evidence of the rifles, long with serial numbers alone establish that. No pissing contest, just trying to point out something factual.


I totally agree that A. Hollis and Son was a retailer, period. Just like Jeffery. Ideed they had an India shop, their business started in England.



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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23567 - 06/01/05 02:23 PM

Rusty,
Your original post said

In reply to:

On the copy of the Jeffery records I have seen at Champlin Firearms, almost all of the barrelled actions were acquired from Leonard. Page after page listed Leonard.




My point was that, at least in the early days of his business, Jeffery was primarily an assembler of parts, who then sent them to a finisher. His Order Ledgers simply itemise the breakdown of costs for parts (actions/barrels/sights/furniture, etc.)and final assembly (including actioning/stocking/regulating etc.) or in other words, finishing.

If Leonard is listed in ledger entries that you have seen as a supplier of "barreled actions"; who is listed as the finisher? If Jeffery bought the whole lot "lock, stock and barrel" as a finished rifle from Leonard then surely the ledgers would show that, and not itemise the "barrelled action"?

Of course it is possible that Leonard bought barrels from Krupps and actioned them before selling them on to Jeffery, but that seems unlikely. It also begs the question - who finished them if Leonard didn't?

We do know that Jeffery was a major customer of Krupps since many ledger entries specifically mention that; even giving the cost. I think that is not illogical to assume that Jeffery bought in "tubes" as they are referred to for shotgun and rifle barrels, and passed them on to a finisher.

As I have tried to point out in my previous posts, if the origins of Jeffery's double rifles is an issue that needs resolving, then there has to be a distinction drawn between the various contibutors to the final product.

Since many "Jeffery" double rifles (and rifles signed by other retailers) carry a 4-digit number on the barrels (Wal Winfer describes this as a "maker's control number" which had exceeded 2000 by the 1930's), this would seem to suggest that they might would have been applied by the finisher, rather than the action or barrel supplier, who may not neccessarily have been one and the same?

A page from Jeffery's 1908 Order Ledger exclusively devoted to Shotguns in the Serial Number range 20041-50, simply lists Leonard under the "Made by and Date" column, thus indicating that they were bought in fully finished. Note this is contemporary with the the rifle Ledger that I posted in which Turner is given as his finisher. Perhaps the later "Post-Turner" entries for double rifles say the same thing, indicating that they were similarly bought in fully finished, rather than as "barrelled actions"?

Perhaps this is now becoming an exercise in pedantry, and we are getting confused about the role of the various people in Jeffery's supply chain?

Personally, I'm getting to the point of not giving a "rat's arse" one way or the other!


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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23571 - 06/01/05 05:15 PM

Gentleman: According to an article published by the American gunsmith and writer Douglas Tate, by the late 1880s both Jeffery and Leonard had outlets on Queen Victoria Street in London -- Jeffery at number 60 and Leonard at 147. Shortly after this, Jeffery records show many of their double rifles as being made by Harry Leonard, who was the son of Daniel Leonard, who set up as a gunmaker in Birmingham as early as 1832. Harry Leonard had his workshop at 19 Lench Street in Birmingham. George Ellis, who worked for Leonard as an actioner and jointer, says the firm also built many guns and rifles for Daniel Fraser, whose guns often exhibit the several variations of the shaped boxlock action found on Jeffery rifles. In this article, there is much more information on the history of the Leonard firm. Perhaps this will be of interest. Keith

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23572 - 06/01/05 05:45 PM

Keith,

In reply to:

the firm also built many guns and rifles for Daniel Fraser, whose guns often exhibit the several variations of the shaped boxlock action found on Jeffery rifles




Assigning makers by vitue of the shape of an action is somewhat problematic. For example, here are what I would call fairly typical Dan'l Fraser double rifles;

Firstly a BPE;



and a pair of typical .303 doubles;



None of them look like the so-called typical Leonard/Jeffery/A.Hollis rifles shown elsewhere in this thread!

Now, here is a Jeffery rifle attributed to Leonard, from your source, "Birmingham Gunmakers" by Douglas Tate;



Note that flat action back - a bit different to Rusty's typical Leonard rifle??? In fact, I once owned a Jeffery rifle that was identical to this rifle, and it was also a dead ringer to a Wilkes .470 that I believe is currently in the possesion of another poster on this forum.

Upshot of all this?? IMO - attibuting "gunmakers" on the basis of the shape of the action is fraught with danger.

BTW - Donald Tate was born in Newcastle-on-Tyne, England and worked in the graphic arts industry in London, Sydney and New York until he was 40, after which he became a Seattle-based Gundealer. A knowledgeable man he might be, but I would have liked to see more acknowledgements of his source material in his book, rather than simple regurgitation of some "urban legends" that have been put about, particulaly by some US based "gunwriters"!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23573 - 06/01/05 07:19 PM

In reply to:

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source.




About as good an urban legend as I've seen!

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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23602 - 07/01/05 04:13 AM

Yes, I agree that assigning make with respect to action shape is problematic. In fact, the shaped action of my Jeffery is like none of the photos posted in this thread. The Jeffery with the stalking tigers in the photo above belonged to a friend of mine. Lying his rifle next to mine, you might not think they were both Jefferys. In fact, mine is exactly like the Number 2 rifle illustrated in one of the Jeffery catalogues I have perused (as well as the primary rifle photo in the Tate article), with full coverage scroll and toe and heel plates, while his is the less expensive number 3 model. The number 1 model in the illustrations was, I believe, an underlever boxlock with full scroll, and a very elegant rifle indeed. I think that lost in all these threads is what fine rifles some of these were. Most Jefferys were "using guns" and some I've handled have been misuded or overused -- they are beat to hell. But classic examples like my rifle and the stalking tiger rifle are wonderfully balanced, handsome weapons that may or may not have killed more Indian game than double rifles by any other maker. I could be very wrong about this, Army&Navy guns were popular as well, but in all the literature I have researched the Jeffery name comes up more than others in connection with Indian hunting. As an aside, I will say that I once passed up buying a Jeffery 450/400 with the push underlever, full scroll, as typical of the Jefferys in 600 Nitro. It was, I believe, sold for $6,000. I talked to the man in Salt Lake City who owned it. He told me it was 10 pounds 8 ounces, which I thought was too heavy, as many Jefferys in 450/400 come in around 10 pounds 2 ounces or even less and I hunt in mountains at 8,000 feet elevation or more. What a fool I was! Anyway, I think one of the reasons this thread is so popular is because of the quality of these rifles at prices that are, or at least, were, much more affordable than the sidelock London guns. Keith


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23622 - 07/01/05 09:44 AM

Keith,

Very interesting! All these different styles of Jeffery's!

For the benefit of other members, do you have any photos that you could post? Also,it could be quite illuminating if you had some copies of original Jeffey Ledger entries? That might shed some light on who actually made the rifles mentioned, ? Or at least Serial Number ranges?

So far, all we have is NE450No2's rifle that was made by Edwinson Green which has the so-called "Leonard Style" action back (pointedly ignored by some othe posters!),
and a .475 No.2 in the same style that is purportedly by Leonard.

In fact, I reckon we should get a "Jeffery Double Rifle Gallery" going! How about it Nitrox?

To kick things off, here are a couple of different style Jeffery's that I once owned;

Firstly, a late model .333 Flanged NE in the S/N 255XX range;



Note the "round" action body. I have a mate with a late .333 that is completely different, and looks to be of European origin. I will attempt to get a photo of this rifle.

And an an early, presumably "Pre-Leonard" .577x31/4" BPE double in the S/N 4XXX range;



Note the "scalloped" action back, a la "Leonard"?, and the distinctly different shape of the balls of the action!

BTW - The "primary rifle" photo shown in Tate's book (pp86) is a shotgun, and is a dead ringer for a Jeffery Shotgun of mine. But note the asymmetrical shape of the scalloped action back - quite different to that found on Jeffery rifles that have such "fancy" backs.



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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23623 - 07/01/05 09:51 AM

Crouching Tigers, Hidden Leonards?


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23627 - 07/01/05 10:08 AM

Hey Rusty,

Didn't take you long to go "off-topic"! In case you hadn't noticed I was calling for photos of Jeffery rifles, not A. Hollis (or any other retailer that had his guns made by Leonard)!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23633 - 07/01/05 10:29 AM

470,
Not off topic. Just thought you could use a little humor to go with those urban legends!

Best regards,


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23635 - 07/01/05 10:55 AM

Rusty,

I reckon you must be a frustrated aspiring Jeffery owner!

You keep throwing that Hollis into this Jeffery thread!

Other members must be starting to get a bit confused??

P'raps you should get it re-engraved to "W.J. Jeffery &Co", and no-one would be the wiser - and you would have a Jeffery!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23636 - 07/01/05 11:08 AM

Speaking of frustration. . . off topic I see?

Actually, I am a very happy owner of an A. Hollis and Son, 450/400 3 inch. I don't need a Jeffery, because I have the same barreled action that Jeffery used. With Krupp Steel barrels too!

You hang in there mate!

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deant
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23637 - 07/01/05 11:14 AM

that is some interest engraving on that BPE. I think I like it. It is different.
I for some reason have wanted a 303 double rifle those look like some nice ones in those pictures.
Dean
I did pickup a nice wj jeffery double shotgun cheap this year I was going to rebarrel it to a double rifle but it turned out to be to nice to butcher.

Edited by deant (07/01/05 11:16 AM)


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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: deant]
      #23643 - 07/01/05 12:20 PM

Guys, I'd like to post some photos of my Jeffery, a page from the logbook with my rifle in it and a couple government documents in the original case which, I think, are gun registration papers. All the maharajas, I believe, could be wrong, had to register their weapons with the government after the fall of the Raj. Embarrased to say I must wait until my son is home next week before I can post them because I'm so computer illiterate. It's something of an irony, for I make my living writing on a computer. In fact, I wrote an article about Jeffery double rifles with many photos in the Double Gun Journal a few years ago. I must say I have learned more from Rusty, 470 Rigby and all of you than I did from my own research. Anyway, the photos to come. Keith

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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23651 - 07/01/05 02:05 PM

Keith,
That is what this is all about. Exchanging information, learning and growing. As much as I love to hunt with my double, I get the greatest thrill being with other double rifle shooters, telling stories and exchanging our research and finds.

Tomorrow is a grand day for me. I'm off to Dallas for the Dallas Safari Club Convention. The Double Rifle Shooters Society meeting will be gaveled to order and our 'Band of Brothers' will come together to enjoy each other's company.


Best regards,


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NE450No2
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23652 - 07/01/05 02:34 PM

My Edwinson Green and Sons rifle has the flat action back and the same rear sights as the 450/400 Jeffery rifle pictured in 500 Nitro's post.
All the Jeffery double rifles I have handled have an action
that looks "different" from other double rifle actions.
I do not mean the back of the action,I have seen flat backs, the round back, and another sculptured type back.
All on rifles marked Jeffery. My Green rifle has this same type action. Someone once told me that they thought Jeffery got his actions made in Europe, maybe Belgium. Has anyone else heard this?

I hope to meet any of the AR Posters who are going to the Dallas Safari Show. Just look for a Distinguished Group of Double Rifle Shooters, walk up and introduce yourself.


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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23660 - 07/01/05 07:10 PM

Bluedevil:

I remember the article you wrote about your .333 for DGJ long ago and recognized your name. Good read. I've lost my copy of that issue. Which one was it?

For some reason, maybe the photos, I seem to remember that yours might have had a third fastener? The reason I ask is that I've only seen a couple of Jeffery rifles that did. They usually just have a round dolls head. I read the article long ago and am probably just not remembering correctly.

What does your .333 weigh? I've used a double in the mountains some - in Idaho's Clearwater for black bear and Colorado for elk - but the rifle I use for that is an 8 3/4 lb Evans .400/.360. I came close to buying a Jeffery .333 once, but it weighed 10 lbs.
--------------------------------




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unspellable
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23674 - 08/01/05 12:34 AM

I too am used to seeing a round doll's head with no third fastener on Jeffery rifles. Did any body else use such a doll's head?

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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: unspellable]
      #23677 - 08/01/05 01:29 AM

NE450No2:
Jeffery sourced most (probably ALL) of his Farquharson actions from Belgium, NOT his double rifles.

A Jeffery .400 ejector double in my custody has the third bite. I didn't think it particularly unusual: I have seen another, a .333 non-ejector. Both are so-called 'Maharajah Guns' with the naive 'prowling tigers' engraving.





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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #23709 - 08/01/05 12:16 PM

Keith here: Have a great trip, Rusty. Hi 400 Nitro. My Jeffery does not have a third fastener and it weighs 9 pounds, perhaps a few ounces less. I have handled one 333 Jeffery that probably weighed 10 pounds, it had the stalking tigers and was flat or straight across the back of the action. I have found, as a rule, that Jefferys with the type of scaplloped action mine has are a little trimmer than the same caliber in the 3rd quality rifle that has the straight across the back action and the simple tiger or guar engraving. Perhaps the latter, being less inexpensive, were built on more standard frames, the 333 being built, say, on the same frame as a 450/400. In any case, mine is defintely built on a frame scaled down for the cartridge. By contrast, I have handled a couple 318 Westley Richards, both droplocks, that weighed 10 pounds 6 ounces and 10 pounds 8 ounces respectively. One of them is presently being offered by Westley Richards American store in Bozeman, Montana, which is where I live. Now what is the point of a 318 that weights 10 and half pounds? Keith
PS I'm not sure which issue my article was in, but I'll dig through the stacks and try to find it. In it I featured my 333 and my friends 450/400 with the stalking tigers engraving.


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4seventy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: unspellable]
      #23711 - 08/01/05 01:32 PM

In reply to:

I too am used to seeing a round doll's head with no third fastener on Jeffery rifles.




Actually the "round dolls head" IS a "third fastener".

If the dolls head has a notch in it which is engaged by a top lever protusion or something similar, like Marrakai's 400, this is called a "third bite".


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23717 - 08/01/05 02:49 PM

bluedevil:

In reply to:

the 333 being built, say, on the same frame as a 450/400



I have had occasion to compare the two fore-mentioned Jeffery 'Maharajah' guns, mine in .400x3-inch, the other in .333. In all respects (except chambering and ejection) these two rifles were identical, however the actions were NOT the same size: the breech-face for the .400 being some 5mm WIDER than the .333. This fact was not apparent to the eye, however the micrometer doesn't lie!

Furthermore, the .400 is a very tight squeeze into the .333's oak'n'leather case. How do I know this? I acquired the .333's case for my uncased .400 before the former rifle (with stuffed bores) retired to the NT Police firearm museum.

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #23791 - 09/01/05 04:33 PM

Marrakai,

No doubt you have posted some details of your 450/400 before, but in the interests of fleshing out some of the origins of these Jeffery doubles, do you have any information on it that you could share?? Such as;

* Original Ledger entry incl. date of Manufacture/Serial No range.
* Chambering 31/4 in case or the later .400S.
* "Makers Control No", from the barrel near forend hanger.

Also - I would be interested to know where the "Maharaja Gun" thing came from?

Ta

470R


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23796 - 09/01/05 05:51 PM

In reply to:

the shotguns are said to have come from John Saunders




Here is an entry from Jeffey's 1908 Order Ledger that lists nine 12 bore shotguns and one 10 bore, consecutively numbered.


A few intersting observations;

* All are shown as made by "Leonard".

* The ten shotguns were made over a period of nine months(from 28 Jan - 15 Sep) - little more than one gun per month. Doesn't seem enough? Perhaps he sourced from other suppliers and kept their records in a different ledger?

* Shotguns were still being made with Damascus barrels as late as 1908!

* One 23/4" gun was made with a "plain" dolls head (i.e no 3rd fastener) - obviously to handle the heavier charge, but not others! And the same approach would have been taken with double rifles, with some rifles of the same chambering being given a third fastener, but not others. Perhaps it depended on what actions were in stock at Leonard's - or maybe on the buyers chequebook! Whatever, there were probably no hard and fast rules to this!

Is has to be realised that the British Guntrade just didn't pump these guns out like Winchester rifles. Each gun was hand-made - and how it ended up probably depended on what was in the parts bin.

Maybe - one day, someone will write a book about the real story behind the British Guntrade?

In the interim, do any other members have any Jeffery shotguns with documentation that they could report on?


Edited by 470Rigby (10/01/05 12:23 AM)


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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23798 - 09/01/05 06:29 PM

Is there any connection between this Thomas Turner and Thomas Turner Guns now based in Reading Berkshire UK?

Also can anyone shed any further light on Hollis?......I have an old Hollis shotgun an a friend has a Hollis .470 double (which he would like to sell).

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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23821 - 10/01/05 06:14 AM

I did find a Jeffery 475#2 Nitro at Champlin's booth at the Dallas Safari club show.

Please not Leonard 4 digit number and steel barrels




George Caswell has promised to send me copies of all the Jeffery records in his possession. I will post as many if not all when I get them and will try to have an emailable file to be able to send to those who want it.

While at the show I spoke with a gentleman via phone in North Carolina who owned a Jeffery 475#2 Jeffery made in 1927. His rifle also possesed the Leonard 4 digit number. He has promised to send me pictures and I will post those when they arrive to me.

Here is a link to some of the pictures I took at the Dallas Safari Club Convention this past weekend.
Dallas Safari Club post on AR.

Best regards,


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: shakari]
      #23840 - 10/01/05 12:55 PM

In reply to:

Is there any connection between this Thomas Turner and Thomas Turner Guns now based in Reading Berkshire UK?





Apart from the name ...No.

Regarding Hollis, you have got to differentiate between A. Hollis (Alfred B) whom I posted about earlier in this thread, and the more well known Isaac Hollis.

Here is a "cut & paste" job from the Internet Gun Club about that firm;

Name Isaac Hollis & Sons

Address 1 5-11 Weaman Row, Lench Street
Address 2 91-92 Lower Loveday Street
Address 3 91-92 Lower Loveday Street & 16-17 Loveday Street.
Address 4 16-17 Loveday Street.
Address 5
Address 6
Address 7
City/Town Birmingham
County
State/Region/Province
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun, Rifle & Pistol Makers
Other Address London offices: 83 Cheapside; 44a Cannon Street; 83 Cheapside; 6 Great Winchester Street; 26 Billiter Buildings; 101 Leadenhall Street; 9 New Broad Street; 54 Clerkenwell Road; 84 Goswell Road.
Dates 1814-1955
Notes
Isaac Hollis & Sons claimed establishment from 1814, i.e from Richard & William at Bath Street, but their immediate predecessor was the firm of Hollis & Sheath (see Hollis & Sheath 1849-1861).
Isaac Hollis & Sons became volume producers of military guns and inexpensive trade guns, but they also made quality sporting guns for the South African (e.g. A Cloag of Port Elizabeth) and Indian markets, the Australian and New Zealand markets, and the home market (e.g. Crockart of Blairgowrie).

In 1861 Isaac Hollis, by now at least 66 years old, appears to have been trading from 5-11 Weaman Row, Lench Street. He patented a trigger guard (No. 1082) and he patented another in 1868 (No. 4922) when he was over 73. It is not known when he died.

In 1870, presumably under the control of the sons, the firm opened a shop at 44a Cannon Street in London; in 1871 this moved to 83 Cheapside.

In 1876/1877 the firm became a limited liability company, Isaac Hollis & Sons Ltd, but by 1879 they were trading again as Isaac Hollis & Sons (which suggests short term financial difficulties).

From 1884 the London office was at 6 Great Winchester Street. From 1892 to 1899 the office was recorded at 26 Billiter Buildings, if the principal London offices were not at this address, 6 Great Winchester Street may have been wholesale offices.

It would appear that in 1899 the offices were moved to 101 Leadenhall Street. In 1903 they moved to 9 New Broad Street.

In about 1911 the firm formed a joint venture of some kind with Bentley & Playfair (see Hollis, Bentley & Playfair). The Birmingham factory seems to have been at 91-92 Lower Loveday Street at this time, but in about 1915 further factory space was taken at 16-17 Loveday Street.

By 1920, Bentley & Playfair appear to left the firm which traded as "Hollis, Bentley & Playfair (I Hollis & Sons)" from 54 Clerkenwell Road.

From 1931 to 1933 the firm traded as I Hollis & Sons from 54 Clerkenwell Road, and as Hollis, Bentley & Playfair from 84 Goswell Road. From 1933 they traded under both names but only from 84 Goswell Road.

From 1935 the firm traded as Hollis, Bentley & Playfair, the factory at 16-17 Loveday Street closed whilst the factory at 91 and 92 Lower Loveday Street continued to operate.

From 1938 to 1943 they traded only as Hollis, Bentley & Playfair but in 1943 closed their London offices.

The firm appears to have closed in 1955.

The full Hollis story is complicated and confusing because it was a large family. William Hollis was born in 1777 and established his business in 1807 at St Mary's Row, he was recorded there until 1811. [It is unlikely he was working on his own, and it is thought that he had at least one brother in the firm, possibly Richard (of Richard & William); Richard (1829-1853) of 3 Lench Street/20 St Mary's Row/79 Weaman Street was probably his nephew (presuming William had another brother)]. Between 1812 and 1816 William moved to 73 Bath Street. In 1838 the firm became William Hollis & Sons, but this partnership does not seem to have been a success and it reverted to William Hollis in 1839. The firm was last recorded in 1845, William died in 1856 at the age of 79 claiming to be the oldest manufacturer and contractor in the Birmingham Gun Trade.

In 1829 a Richard Hollis opened at 3 Lench Street, this may have been William's son but more likely it was a nephew. In 1833 Richard also occupied 20 St Mary's Row, but for one year only. In 1847 Richard moved from Lench Street to go to 79 Weaman Street, he closed in 1853, but it is possible that he teamed up with Christopher (brother or son?).

The firm of Hollis Brothers started trading from 11 Weaman Row in 1839. The partners were Isaac Hollis and Frederick Hollis who died in 1839. They stopped trading in 1848, to form Hollis & Sheath at 10-11 Weaman Row.

A cartridge named "Hollis Special Cartridge" in 20 bore exists in a private collection; it bears a Royal coat of arms but whether or not it applies to this firm is not known.\End Quote

Isaac Hollis was not noted as maker of high grade guns, but occasionally one comes across one with his name on it. Here is one such 450/400 double rifle;











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mickey
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23847 - 10/01/05 03:19 PM

So now that we are winding down on WJ Jefferies who was W Jefferies of Calcutta?

I have a friend that bought a 450#2 W Jefferies from Saunders in 1990 or so. A nice rifle but heavy.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: NE450No2]
      #23855 - 10/01/05 06:13 PM

450No2

In reply to:

Someone once told me that they thought Jeffery got his actions made in Europe, maybe Belgium




Here is a copy of a page from Jeffery's 1904-05 catalogue showing 16 and 20 bore guns that he sourced from Belgium.



Of interest is his ackowlegement that the Belgian makers could produce guns 30-40 pecent cheaper than the English, due to Belgian workers putting in a 12 hour day compared to the English working day of 7 or 8! Also, the Belgians worked for an hourly rate that was 20-30 pecent lower.

No doubt Jeffery bought from whoever was cheapest!


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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23935 - 12/01/05 04:16 AM

470Rigby,

Thanks for the info.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Rowdy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: shakari]
      #23965 - 12/01/05 04:07 PM

A second try to post a picture of my Jeffery - it has suffered a bit from the Indian climate and "gunsmiths"

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Rowdy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rowdy]
      #23982 - 12/01/05 11:59 PM

And the markings - I guess Mr Krupp did not make .303 bores.

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rowdy]
      #24047 - 14/01/05 12:06 AM

Rowdy,
That's a very early Jeffery .303 - in the 4xxx serial number range ?. Do you have any documentation (Ledger entries, etc) that might shed some light on it's origins?

Also, what are the small markings on the barrels next to the Serial? number? That might give a clue about the barrel maker?

Thanks


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rowdy]
      #24098 - 14/01/05 12:00 PM

Rowdy,

Thanks for posting a picture of your rifle. Whatever depredations the Indian weather and gunsmiths have made on it, it is still something that would drive a man crazy.

Absolutely beautiful rifle and in a superb caliber - the 303 is an old friend to me as an Indian. Congratulations and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Rowdy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #24346 - 17/01/05 12:12 PM

No information about it's history 470 - except it was retailed in India as it has Walter Locke & Co. Calcutta 9263 on the barrels.
The Jeffery address is 13 King Street St. James London.


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #24945 - 23/01/05 12:52 PM

A late post, to answer 470Rigby’s request for details of my .400 Jeffery.

The serial number is 25589, and the 4-digit number on the barrels is 3362. There is also a small letter ‘A’ obscurely stamped on the barrels near the forend-loop, and I have been told that Andrews may have made the barrels or indeed the entire rifle. It is chambered for the .400S, or Jeffery’s .450/.400 3-inch cartridge.




Seeking more info on the provenance of this double, I sent off a request to Paul Roberts some time ago, and he duly forwarded it to the US owner of the Jeffery records with the next batch of enquiries. Some time later, I received an e-mail from the US informing me that the information had been copied from the Jeffery records, and could I please provide a postal address for the extract. My return e-mail containing the postal address encountered fatal delivery errors!

I informed Paul of these developments, and he undertook to chase it up, but I have heard nothing more. Repeated attempts to reply-email the US party have received the same ‘undeliverable’ error. It just kills me to think that the info on my rifle has been extracted from the records and was actually sitting in an envelope waiting to be posted! Perhaps its time I chased this up again.

Regarding the ‘Maharajah gun’ nick-name, it has been universally applied to all Jeffery guns with the ‘prowling tigers’ engraving for as long as I can remember. It is clear that these guns were intended for India, and although often regarded as ‘working’ box-locks, many (including mine) have chopper-lump barrels, moon sights, Southgate ejectors, fully-engraved trap grip-caps, doll’s-head with third bite, bushed strikers, etc etc. It is clear that they are a level above the normal No.3 Pattern guns, more in line with the No.4 'Best quality' Pattern, and the speculation is that they were intended primarily as the ‘working guns’ within a Maharajah battery. On an organised tiger-shoot, for example, all visiting dignitaries would be given a double rifle, and assigned to an elephant, in order to participate in the hunt.

My own example bears the number ‘29’ boldly engraved on the oval, and Paul Roberts agreed that this is most likely a Maharajah rack-number. I’d like to have seen numbers 1 through 10!

Originally it was thought that the naïve engraving of the tigers (ie their-‘boof-headed’ appearance) was due to the fact that British engravers had not seen a real tiger, and were modelling them on pussy cats! There is now apparently some evidence to suggest that they may have been requested in that style, reminiscent of many of the carvings and engravings on Hindu temples etc.



If anyone can shed factual light on the origins of Jeffery’s ‘prowling tigers’ engraving, I would certainly be pleased to hear it! I only have the 1910/11 catalogue, owners of a later version may have more to add on these fascinating doubles.


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #24962 - 23/01/05 05:16 PM

Marrakai,

Thank's for taking the time to post on your rifle.

It's a damn shame that the owner of the Jeffery records is proving to be so inaccessable. Perhaps somebody in the US knows the guy and could give him a "tune-up"?

The post 1924 Proof Marks on your rifle makes it comparatively late in the scheme of things, so when you get your Ledger copy it shall be interesting to see who the "maker" was.

I found your comment on the "naive" style of the Tigers interesting - I share your view that the style is Indian in origin. Certainly, it is in keeping with the typical illustrations found in books and etchings from the Rajputana region in India - indeed, I have some of these that I picked up in Jaipur once that are "dead ringers" for the Jeffery tigers.

Regarding the Provenance, I would have thought that if your had rifle came out of a Marharaja's Armoury, the number engraved on the oval might have been in Sanskrit?

Regards,

470R







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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #24972 - 23/01/05 10:25 PM

470R:
Perhaps one might expect a rack-number in Sanskrit on earlier guns, but between the wars in India it was all about "being British"! The guns were British, the visiting dignitaries were invariably British, many of the Maharajahs were educated in Britain and indeed some of them spent the summers in England as guests of Brit royalty. An armoury-number in western numerals is no surprise IMHO.

Here's a close-up:


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #24992 - 24/01/05 03:39 AM

Marakkai,

The theory that these were commissioned based on pictures of tigers painted on the walls of Hindu temples is definitely possible as I can see a clear resemblance especially to pictures in temples in South India. A number of zamindars in the South especially in what was then called the "Composite Madras Presidency" by British bureaucrats were keen hunters and they might well have commissioned religious scenes as many of them were more religious than North Indian Hindus were.

If you would need any assistance in contacting the owner of the Jeffrey records in the USA and if I could help, just let me know. I'd be more than happy to do what I could.

Good hunting!

--------------------
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Mehul Kamdar


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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #24995 - 24/01/05 04:47 AM

the tiger question remind me on an old print from time around 1850 I buy last year in Berlin for 15 euro. Its this style of drawing a tiger.
Marakai-send you a PM for your e-mail address. I will scan the print and send it to you, please post it here.
It may be the rigth place to show this little thing.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25005 - 24/01/05 08:44 AM

At various times, the rulers of Indian States probably carried the British Gunmaking trade, certainly for DB rifles. As a consequence of the Recession precipitated by the "Wall Street Crash" of 1929, the British trade went into a decline from which it never fully recovered.

To illustrate this, Holland and Holland's records show an average number of "starts" of 500 guns in the 1910/11 period, but in the 1930's this was down to 176.

The Indian rulers were seemingly isolated from all this, and certainly during this period were the major customers for British DB rifles, so the vast majority were, in essence, "Maharaja Rifles".

My curiosity is why the Jefferey "Prowling Tiger" rifles are singled out for this this title? If a significant number can be shown to have different origins, then surely that puts the lie to this particular notion?

BTW - It is also a mistake to assume that the Indian rulers of the era were universally "Anglophilic". Some were totally opposed to British rule, to the point of refusing to buy British-made guns, preferring instead to purchase from European sources





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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25012 - 24/01/05 09:55 AM

470Rigby,

If you are talking of the maharajas or the erstwhile kingdoms in India, after 1857 there were none who were anti British. The only ones that had been anti British lost the Sepoy Mutiny then and there was no major opposition to the British in India except from the Congress, a party started by a British socialist, Allan Octavian Hume, and that is why the Indian government abolished the minor monarchies after independence.

That said, other than Mannlichers which were very popular bolt rifles in India I have not seen many pre independence Continental guns if any sold there at any time unless you take cheap American Harrington and Richardsons and other similar single barrel shotguns which were sold in large enough numbers to farmers for vermin control.

Indians boycotted British clothing and cars but not guns - I cannot recall ANY boycott of British guns by any individual or group in recorded Indian history.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25018 - 24/01/05 12:29 PM

Marrakai

If you ever get the info, I remember you mentioned it back it August, I would be intrigued to find out any history on my Jeffrey and follow-up as well.

"Rack numbers" for doubles for visiting hunters. We live in lesser times.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25027 - 24/01/05 02:57 PM

Mehul
In reply to:

in India I have not seen many pre independence Continental guns if any sold there




Apart from Mausers and Mannlicher Sporting rifles, quite a few Belgian made DB rifles were sold in in India. I know this because I have seen such rifles that have been imported into Australia from India. Also, as you will see from the 1926/27 Manton catalogue, they were selling Over and Under rifles of obvious Continental origins. This rifle is very reminiscent of Merkel rifles.


Now, I can't vouch for how many were sold, or whether many found their way into "Maharaja's" Armouries, but the British certainly did not have the market to themselves.

As for Anglophobic Rulers, it is true that the British did subdue the recalcitrant rulers after the Mutiny of 1857, but I don't recall them being univerally converted into English lackeys! Even dear old Duleep Singh, who was virtually raised by Queen Victoria, and who features in all the books on Pre-Edwardian Game Shooting, eventually turned against the British and left in the late 1880's to conspire with the Germans, the Russians, the French or whoever would help him in his ultimately futile attemt to regain the Kingdom that that he was stripped of by the British.

In the context of that time, European politics was extremely volatile (Germany was even in alliance with Britain!), and much of this had a knock-on effect to the British colonies.

As for boycotts on buying British guns, I did read this somewhere, but being of advancing years, I'm afraid my diminished mental faculties cannot remember where! Probably in "Lives of the Indian Princes","Plain Tales of the Raj","Princely India", or some such. When time permits, I shall trawl through my library to see if I can find it.

Regards,
470R


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25080 - 24/01/05 11:55 PM

470R:

In reply to:

My curiosity is why the Jefferey "Prowling Tiger" rifles are singled out for this this title? If a significant number can be shown to have different origins, then surely that puts the lie to this particular notion?




Ask yer father for a lesson in manners, mate. No liars here! I certainly didn't invent the term 'Maharajah Guns' to describe Jeffery's 'prowling tigers' boxlocks, the monica has been around for decades, and will be around for many more. I simply responded to your query. Not much point in burring up over the answer!

If anyone here can demonstrate that Jeffery sold 'prowling tiger' boxlocks to customers other than Indian royalty, this would certainly be a contribution, but we are unlikely to ever discover the names of original purchasers of Jeffery's rifles. My understanding is that the surviving ledgers do not contain that information, but I would be very happy to be wrong on this!

470R:
Regarding your last post, I think you may be deliberately mis-leading here with your account of continental guns bought by Maharajas.

Your example shows an East German gun marketed by Mantons, a British firm in India, and finished in the British style! The fact is that this speaks volumes about the entrepreneurial spirit of the Manton firm, and says nothing about gun-preferences of the Maharajahs. Manton was happy to source his wares from all and sundry, but the buyer of such an arm could hardly have been 'anti-British', or he would not have been shopping at Mantons!

Here's another example belonging to a mate: crown over 'U' Suhl inspection mark clearly visible on the flats, but finished in the best English style (and probably sold without drawing attention to the actual country of origin!).



...and no matter who Duleep Singh may have 'gotten in to bed with' in the late 1880's, he invariably preferred British guns to the grave!


pwm: reply PM coming your way, with thanks!



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25094 - 25/01/05 04:12 AM

marrakai the pic is on the way to you, thank you

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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25098 - 25/01/05 04:42 AM

Manton have sell more than one gun from Suhl, have somewhere a pic of 470NE sxs.
Remeber an article in a gun magazin here about Heinrich Barella, gunmaker in Berlin. the article have some pics from 1926 or 1927 with a maharajah and mister Barella on the range. the maharajah was on a shoping tour and testing some guns.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25099 - 25/01/05 04:58 AM

470Rigby,

Duleep Singh's on and off association with the British government was probably more related to his affair with Queen Victoria than any political reason. The Sikh empire at Lahore was history after his father was assassinated by his stepmother.

I am not denying that Continental guns were sold in India - when even cheap American guns were, there was no doubt that Continental guns would have sold. But I have visited almost all the major palace armouries in Tamilnadu and Andhra as a good friend in Belgium wanted to buy some guns from India some years ago. While I did see many handguns made on the Continent and in the USA, I saw hardly any rifle or shotgun made anywhere other than in Britain except if it was retailed by a British company. There are big dealers like Rusi Jijina and DVS Rao who have some old Sauers and Simpsons but the percentage if taken in relation to their entire stock is considered it would probably be 1 to 2% and definitely not more than 5%.

BTW the Maharajas even started their own political party in the 1930s when it became evident that independence was only a question of time, the Mahajana Sabha, and their raison d'etre was to stay within the British empire as a dominion.

Anyway, this is too off topic on a thread about beautiful guns and let us stick to guns and not to Indian politics.

Best wishes,



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25101 - 25/01/05 05:08 AM

Marakkai and pwm,

Please post the picture here. I am sure that I am not the only member interested in seeing it. Give us something extra to enjoy and thanks in advance for this.

Good hunting and best wishes!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25112 - 25/01/05 09:00 AM

Mehul,
In reply to:

let us stick to guns and not to Indian politics



Agreed - probably of no interest to 99.99% of the members who simply want to shoot the guns, and would have no interest whatsoever in their historical associations.

At the risk of being seen to want to labour the point, I was simply try to correct an impression that the relationship between the Indian rulers and the British was totally cosy. Some of their resentments of the Brish stemmed from British attempts to curb their excesses, but (IMO) they came to see the British as a better alternative to the nasty thing called "DEMOCRACY" that was looming at the hands of Messrs Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, et al.

I shall PM you on the topic.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25117 - 25/01/05 10:06 AM

pwn
Here is a "miniature" of a British Sportsman shooting a Tiger from a Howdah. This is from Patiala State in about 1892.


I would be interested to know who the Maharaja was that was out shopping for a Barrela gun. Barrela enjoyed the patronage of the Russian Royal family - prior to their demise! The Russians were also quite cosy with the Nizam of Hyderabad. This is a photo from the Grand Duke Alexanders visit in to Hyderabad in 1891.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25133 - 25/01/05 03:00 PM

Here is a page from Jeffery's Order Ledger from the 1901/02 period;


Some interesting observations;

*Of the ten consecutively numbered rifles and shotguns (including one "Ball Gun"), all were finished by Scotts. Since this post-dates the 1897 merger of P. Webley with W.C. Scott & Son it is interesting to speculate that Jeffery's previous altercations with Webley had been set aside by then, although he is perhaps pointedly ignoring the Webley involvement by leaving the name off his records?

* All three .400S DB Rifles listed show the cost of the "tubes" separately, suggesting that they weren't supplied by Webley & Scott. The barrels were "Nickel Steel"

* All three DB rifles were fitted with Baker ejectors, contrary to later rifles which invariably have Southgate ejectors.

* Over a five month period (14th October - 13th March), ten guns were "made"; that's only two per month! This begs the question - did Jeffery keep individual ledgers for different suppliers? This could explain why his ledgers always seem to list only one supplier on each page?


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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25150 - 25/01/05 08:22 PM

Why would they keep seperate books?

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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25156 - 25/01/05 10:06 PM

I have tossed up pwm's teutonic print of a tiger-hunt, but its a bit too big to fit here. Shrinking it will lose too much detail, I had to do some very creative image-editing to get it under 200kb as it is! Have a look here:

Tiger Hunt


Meanwhile, here's another example of the engraving:


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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25173 - 26/01/05 03:49 AM

470 rigby, you must have a fine archives, send me a PM with your e-mail address. i will look for the issue with the old photos and send it to you.
marrakail
what I mean is not the big cat in middle,but the two in the margin. I believe you have a similar development with pictures from elephants in the time between 1850 and 1900. the picture of an animal goes in this time from a naiv to a photographic exact manner.this dont mean that you are not able to recognice a tiger as a tiger. the naive style try to show the characteristic feature's of this animal. if the gun was made for an idian custumer it seem me clear that this was the rigth way because its more relative with the culture the people live and think.
you must say that it lost much of its quality now when you have shooting down 300 kb but its good that you are able to post it. I hope the gentleman here enjoi it.


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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25174 - 26/01/05 03:55 AM

I dont think that the print was teutonic, you will find the name A.H.Payne sc. and the "the Tiger Hunt" plus "Die Tigerjagd".
I believe it was printed in Britain but also for the german market.
Look for the lady on the rigth side figthing against the tiger with the sunshade.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25177 - 26/01/05 05:43 AM

Marakkai and pwm,

The German print is almost identical to the Raj era hunt paintings both by British as well as by Indian artists that I have seen. The line engraving on the Jeffery is different and very similar to South Indian temple paintings. The reason I am saying this is that in ancient India, when many of the temples were built by carving into rock in aroung AD 900, there was no way to stabilise the colour yellow in paint and tigers were carved into the rocks in outline. Many years later, the Muslims brought yellow pigment to India and the line carvings were just filled in with the yellow pigment fully, without any depth ot domension to the painting. Unless you see the sight close up, you would not understand the difference between the German picture and the engraving on the rifle. I'll try and find some links and e-mail them to you to show you what I mean.

Good hunting!

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25201 - 26/01/05 01:48 PM

Mehul

Pehaps this is now becoming "off-topic" and of absolutely no interest to other members, but

In reply to:

Many years later, the Muslims brought yellow pigment to India



perhaps this was true of South India, but as this part of a 5th Century AD Frescoe from one of the Ajanta caves in Central India shows;


The use of pigments, including yellow was not unkown before Mughal times.

These were done with very expensive pigments imported by the Budhist era painters responsible these these Frescoes, which were far in advance of anything being done Europe at the time. The blues were apparently added at a later time when lapis lazuli became avalaible.

These Frescoes had lain forgotten for 1000 years until re-discovered in 1819 by an Englishman out Tiger hunting. I have been there, but don't recall any depictions of Tigers.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #25206 - 26/01/05 05:51 PM

In reply to:

Why would they keep seperate books?




The surviving Jeffery records are "Order Ledgers", and it is not unusual for businesses to keep separate order books for different suppliers. I do it myself, albeit using an alphanumeric code to differentiate suppliers.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25209 - 26/01/05 07:45 PM

470 Rigby,

The Ajanta and Ellora caves were begun in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD and the pgments used there had been brought in to Northern and North western India by the Greeks first under Alexander and later under Menander. They were expanded and completed by the 6th century AD. The Greeks did not come to the South and neither did any of their influences during the turmoil between the various Southern dynasties and the Hindus and Buddhists and Jains.

The yellow, saffron and orange colours were brought to Madurai in pigment form by Allauddin Khilji around 1300 AD, long before the Mughals set foot in India. The Mughals also did not ever manage to conquer the Southernmost parts of India as they had to stop at what is now Maharashtra because the Maratthas stopped their expansion southwards.

There is as good as a wall of separation between North and South India, between what are essentially Dravidian and mixed Dravidian/Aryan civilisations. One region simply cannot be compared with the other as the development of religion, art and culture in both are almost completely different.

Best wishes,

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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25228 - 27/01/05 04:22 AM

it may be of topic´but its very interesting, I wonder that pigments are unknow before Moghal time. that means that the old idian culture dont have coloured pictures, rigth? hard to believe that a country(I know its more a continent)dont have most time colours. maybe I have to understand it in the way that colours making of and with pigments are unknow in old india but they have more primitive colours making from plants which can't stand long time special in tropical climate?

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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25245 - 27/01/05 01:50 PM

pwm,

While textile pigments like indigo were available in South India and there is evidence that even the Romans traded in these and in spices at Poompuhar, the colour yellow and ochre, orange and saffron were not available as pigments there. These were brought by Allauddin Khilji in the early 1300s during his campaign against the Southern Hindu kingdoms and almost 170 years before the Mughals came into India.

Also, as I said earlier, the Mughals never made it to South India as their push Southwards was thwarted by the Maratthas.



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A10ACN
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25423 - 30/01/05 10:13 AM

As an owner of a W.J. Jeffery 450 No.2, I've been following this thread with interest. All of y'all's scratchin and finger pointin finally motivated me to pull my rifle out of the safe. Now, my rifle is the typical pre-war, gaur/buffalo/bison engraved, scalloped back action, Jeffery. It has 24 inch Krupp steel bbls, 1 and 4 lvs. The only thing a little different about it is the 'Made Expressly For Lyon and Lyon, Calcutta' engraved on the bbls along with the 13 King Street St James, Jeffery Address. Obviously a Leonard built gun for Jeffery and retailed for Lyon and Lyon in India. Right?? Well, after looking for the Leonard 4 digit number that Rusty mentioned, I grabbed the copy of the ledger that Paul Roberts was able to provide for me. Imagine my surprise when I looked on the ledger and saw Turner as the only builder of my rifle (#16444). The same goes for the other rifles on the page, all top lever A/D DBs (#16441-16450, all 450 No.2s, 400 Ss, and 1 400/360. Dates-June 1906-June 1907(1).
I've even told people that my rifle was a Leonard built rifle-all scalloped backs were, right???? Wrong, again, it seems!!!! Sorry no pic capability.
A10ACN


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: A10ACN]
      #25435 - 30/01/05 02:57 PM

Actually the real test for the Leonard action is the 4 digit number on the under rib near the barrel loop.
Does yours have such a number?

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A10ACN
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #25437 - 30/01/05 04:34 PM

Nope, no Leonard number. Makes one wonder if Jeffery DID keep a ledger for each out-builder, since all the rifles on my ledger page were Turners. I need to find the other Jeffery ledger page I have around here for a 404 I once owned. Then there is the 404 I now own that is listed in Speed's Mauser book as a Jeffery, has Jeffery address and number engraved on it, typical Jeffery stock lay out (AKA model A Mauser), and the Jeffery mid-length tapered bbl, however its recorded as a 12 bore shotgun in Jeffery's records!?!?! Maybe there is another Mauser ledger that is missing???
A10ACN


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: A10ACN]
      #25454 - 31/01/05 12:37 AM

My question is , who supplied the actions after Turner closed down?

Who else in the trades kept seperate records for differant suppliers?

As soon as George Caswell gets back from Reno, I have been promised a copy of all the Jeffery records he has in his possession.

I will post all those records here when I get them and can scan them to the computer.

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mickey
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #25470 - 31/01/05 08:37 AM

Rusty

Looking forward to that.

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #26632 - 22/02/05 02:09 AM

OK, back to the top again.

Last week, I received the long-awaited letter from the current owners of the Jeffery records in the US. A copy of the ledger page containing my .400 double was enclosed. Here's the entry pertaining to the rifle in question:



The correspondant commented on the 'handsome penmanship' but regretted that the abbreviations were 'quite difficult to discern in some cases'. Fortunately for us, we are fluent in the language of the pommie gun-maker here!

.450/400; 3-inch case; Model 3; Hammerless ejector; 24-inch barrels; Standing plus 2 leaf to 300 yards; Bead foresight with disc; Anson forend; Doll's Head extension with bite; Pistol-grip stock; Trap with spare sight; 10 lbs; made 15/02/39; Cost price 40 pounds 7 and 6; Engraving 4 quid; Selling price 60 quid.

Now for the tricky bit. Made by "C.L."

...so who the hell is C.L.? Is this the next generation of Leonards? I am aware of Daniel the elder, and sons Harry, Daniel, and Samuel before the first war, but no-one with the initials C.L. The gun does have the 4-digit number generally attributed by other members of this forum to Harry Leonard:



1939 is a fairly late manufacture, so I am intrigued as to who the maker could be. Obviously the firm of Charles Lancaster was out of the picture by 1932. There is a Clive Lemon listed in Boothroyd's Directory, but no details given. The only detailed info I have on the Leonard family comes from Tate, no hints there.

Can anyone throw me a bone here?

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Leonard
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #41031 - 09/11/05 12:45 AM

Hi Rusty

I sent you an email earlier today but was not sure if it was transmitted correctly as it did not appear in my "sent" box.

Please advise

Stewart Leonard


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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41039 - 09/11/05 03:16 AM

Hey Marrakai:

Go to www.champlinarms.com and open the vault. Do a search on double rifles. Check out the W. J. Jeffery 450/400 3" Best Sidelock Ejector. Jeffery's SN is 25,574, 15 guns earlier than yours. Maker's number, stamped in exactly the same place and manner (as all of these maker's numbers we're discussing here are) is 3348.

Rusty and I have both owned A. Hollis & Son .450/.400 3" boxlocks for years and got started in this line of research due to the striking similarities between our guns and SOME of the Jeffery's. Some of the Jeffery guns have that 4 digit number in front of the loop, but quite a few don't. Virtually all of the Hollis guns do. Although you have to look "through" the strictly cosmetic differences, the Hollis guns and the Jeffery guns that have the same 4-digit number are the identical basic gun and are absolutely from the same trade maker. The Jeffery's that don't have this number are not the same gun and, I'm certain, came from different makers.

So whose number is this? I really think your surmise has to be correct - "C" is the next generation. As nearly as I can tell, Harry would certainly seem to have been retired by 1939, if not deceased. It would seem that there WAS a next generation that continued the business, because the firm continued to trade until 1965 or later.

Yes, this cryptic entry is frustrating, but offers a new line of inquiry. I'll let you know what I discover.

Is the maker's number on your gun 3289 or 3389? I can't quite make it out.
----------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #41064 - 09/11/05 06:19 AM

Stewart,
Wow, Great to hear from you and thanks for sharing a bit of your family's history.

I would be very grateful to exchange any information with you directly.

Please feel free to contact me at rkmojo@aol.com

Kindest regards,
Rusty Knight
Missouri City, Texas

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Rusty
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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41065 - 09/11/05 06:28 AM

Marraki:

Well I'll be. Seems "C" is for Charles.
--------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41072 - 09/11/05 09:24 AM

400NE:
Unfortunately the Jeffery ledger page I have in my possession only covers SNs 25581 to 25590, though whoever picks that gun up will be able to get the goods from the current owner of the records for sure. I take it you've examined the sidelock personally, as the 4-digit number does not appear in the on-line photos I was able to view. Very nice rifle BTW, wish I had a few thou spare for the privelage of looking after it for a while!

The 4-digit number on my .400 BLE is 3362

Welcome to the forum, Leonard. You are a relative I take it? What relation to you was Charles? I too would very much appreciate a cc on any private e-mails as I have a long-standing interest in this topic also! marrakai577@hotmail.com
Cheers

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Marrakai
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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41104 - 09/11/05 10:38 PM

Dear All,

Not quite a double rifle but a Jeffery S/S 12 bore shotgun nevertheless. The number of mine is 29867 and I wonder if anybody has the Jeffery references for this? I have spoken to Roberts earlier this year but no information has been sent yet.

A very interesting topic, if I may say so.

Regards,

Norman Poole Suffolk England


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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41109 - 10/11/05 02:06 AM

Marrakai:

That one would be worth a "handling" fee, wouldn't it? Unfortunately no, I haven't had the pleasure yet. My friend CFA was headed up there to pick up his new Lang and his new Holland, so I asked him to handle it and look for the number. He called me while he was handling it and described it in detail while I took notes. He says the rifle looks nearly new.
----------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Leonard
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41200 - 11/11/05 01:56 AM

Hello Marrakai,

As to your question of what relation I am to Charles Leonard

Harry Leonard was my great grandfather and Charles Leonard was the youngest of his five sons. Who were:
Daniel (christened Walter Daniel, my grandfather)
Samuel
Henry
Fredrick
Charles

Charles was possibly the longest surviving also. All Harry's sons were in the gun trade. My Grandfather Daniel specialised in barrels (Barrel Filer)
Harry died around 1928 and I'm not absolutely sure but Charles would have been 80 in 1964 and his death, along with the destruction of two thirds of the Birmingham Gun Quatre to develop a ring road led, I believe, to the end of gunmaking by the Leonards.

This is also only one branch of the Leonard gunmakers as Harry leonard was one of three sons of Daniel Leonard the Founder who (I'm sure you can guess) were also in the gun trade. Harry's brothers were Daniel and Samuel who all had families with most sons going into the trade as well.

I am new to this forum and am not sure how you copy messages to other members so apologise for not copying you emails I sent to Rusty. I don't see a copy button!

Regards
Stuart Leonard
Germany



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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #41201 - 11/11/05 02:13 AM

Norman (Jeffery):
If Paul Roberts has passed on a request from you to the owners of the Jeffery records, it may take some time for them to respond, but I suspect you will be happy with the eventual result. My own request took many months but I am very grateful for the information and the very fine copy of the ledger entry. Have patience!

Stuart (Leonard):
Thanks for the info on the Leonard lineage, invaluable to a double-gun anglophile like me. Every time I pick up my Jeffery .400 double I realise just how damn good the thing feels, your ancestors certainly knew how to build lively, sweet-handling, perfectly balanced rifles. That heritage must be a source of great pride.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41204 - 11/11/05 02:22 AM

I am looking forward to exchanging information with Stuart and his Leonard heritage and history.

This is indeed a great moment in my research on double rifles!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41288 - 11/11/05 09:41 PM

G'day Marrakai,

(Notice the bi-lingual capabilities)

Looked at your web site, would love to visit. Thanks for replying, interesting that you should include a reply to Stu in the same message as he and I have been friends for years. We both are very intereested in the Leonard guns, I am waiting to shoot his D. Leonard and Son 12 bore DB damascus barreled hammer gun and will let him try my Jeffery.

Also to Rusty, I spent a couple of years in McAllen and was lucky enought to be invited to some white wing dove days. Also shot a number of American rifles and pistols, including the .357 magnum and colt 45 auto. The gun shops were awesome. Quite an experience for a Limey, considering the legal requirements in the UK. As far as large bores in the UK go, I have been limited to .303 and 7.62 mm. But have fired Bren and Vickers machine guns!

Regards,

Norman


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41292 - 12/11/05 01:50 AM

A late reply to the question of catalogues later than 1910/1911

Hi Marrakai,

Stuart and I both have a copy of the 1928 Jeffery catalogue. The "prowling tigers" gun is listed on page 29, Classified as

Jefferys No. 3 Model Cordite Express Rifle in .333, .375 Magnum, .400, & .475 No. 2 Bore calibres. Top lever Anson & Dealy Action, Dolls Head Extension, 24" nickel steel barrels, Sighted to 300 yards (or to 500 if required)

The barrels have solid lumps and not merely a separate piece of steel brazed to the Barrel as is usually the case in medium-priced weapons. Cartridges for these Cordite Rifles can usually be obtained at short notice from the leading Indian Gunmakers. Prices No. 3 Model Ejector 70 English pounds No. 3 model Non-Ejector 60 English pounds. Approximate postage to Australia and New Zealand 6 shillings and sixpence. Catalogue also had Cartridges in .400 Jeffrey calibre with 400 grain solid, soft nose or split nose bullets cost 3 English pounds per 100.

Regards,

Norman


Edited by Jeffery (12/11/05 01:52 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #41533 - 15/11/05 01:20 AM

In reply to:

am new to this forum and am not sure how you copy messages to other members so apologise for not copying you emails I sent to Rusty. I don't see a copy button!





Stuart

If you would like anything relevant to double rifles, the Leonards actions, or family history displayed on NitroExpress.com (for public viewing) just ask.

I will send you an email.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Jeffery]
      #41556 - 15/11/05 11:00 AM

Jeffery:
Well how 'bout that: an example of negative inflation on British gun prices.

Your 1928 catalogue lists the No.3 model ejector at 70 quid, whereas the ledger-extract (copy) in my possession lists the same gun as 60 quid ten years later. Difference between the Roaring Twenties and the Great Depression perhaps?

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Marrakai
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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41648 - 16/11/05 06:21 AM

I have just recieved from George Caswell of Champlin Firearms in Enid, OK., a page of Jeffery records. Unfortunately these are the only ones he has.

400NitroExpress and I are in the process of trying to obtain others. I have no idea the timeline for access to others' records if ever. We're trying! Please note the dates 1913-1920. Leonard supplied barreled actions.

I hope that you can read this.


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Rusty
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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #41728 - 16/11/05 08:42 PM

What a fantastic piece of social history. It is interesting that the first two name references (1913) only give the name Leonard, the remainder (1917 & 1920)are H Leonard. Maybe Stu can give an indication if the first two are from the Daniel era!

Regards,

Norman


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Jeffery]
      #41886 - 18/11/05 08:23 PM

Stuart, sent me a private msg last week. It gives some of the lineage of the Leonards.
In reply to:

Daniel was the son of Samuel Leonard a gun and pistol maker who started his own business (D Leonard Gunmaker, which became D Leonard and Son and then later D Leonard and Sons). Harry, Daniels son, ran the business after Daniel died and Harry's son Charles Leonard ran the business after Harry died. The family was quite extensive each generation having many sons most of whom went into the gun trade which gave the firm many relatives to call upon to work on orders. Harry Leonard also made guns under his own name H. Leonard, B'ham. I also have Henry as my second forename.
Earlier Leonard Guns have L&S as stampings as my own gun has.




--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #42315 - 25/11/05 02:40 AM

Christies auction sale London 14 December 2005 has the following

Lot 31 Jeffery .577 DB boxlock non-ejector serial number 2416 estimate 6500 to 9000 English Pounds

Lot 32 I Hollis .450 (3 1/4" nitro-express) DB boxlock non-ejector serial number 15018 estimate 4500 to 6500 English pounds.

Both are pictured. Dig deep into your pockets friends!

Regards,

Norman


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Jeffery]
      #42330 - 25/11/05 10:09 AM

Try this one on for size. . .Holland & Holland New York Gun Room

A. Hollis and Son 470 boxlock. I've checked, it's a Leonard action. $42,000 USD. Here a link to the site
Holland and Holland New York

--------------------
Rusty
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vigillinus
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Rusty]
      #42459 - 28/11/05 03:26 PM

Not on double rifles, but I have a Krag with a gold oval engraved "To my friend Anthony Fiala from S.A. Leonard", Mike Petrov says that S.A. was head stocker for Purdeys, a son of Daniel, was in the U.S. firm Leonard & Hyde (George Hyde designed submachine guns and did metalwork for Griffin & Howe), S.A. also did stockwork for Baker & Kimball in
Boston. Fiala was an inventor & outfitter, designed a .22 repeating pistol that looked like a Colt Woodsman, went on expeditions to the Arctic, and up the Amazon with Theodore Roosevelt, Bill Ruger told me he bought a couple of machine guns from Fiala before WWII. Petrov has a 1903 sporter signed by S.A., it has the same cheekpiece shape as my Krag. These Leonards certainly got around.


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Leonard
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: vigillinus]
      #42464 - 28/11/05 11:04 PM

Hi Vigillinus,

I note with interest that you refer to an S A Leonard and that you have information from Mike Petrov that he was the son of Daniel. I have looked in our family records and the Samuel who was my G Grandfathers Brother (i.e. brother of Harry Leonard) did not leave UK also he was a gun barrel filer. However there were other Daniel Leonards co existing, cousins etc., who were in the gunmaking trade.

Do you or Mike Petrov have any other information? If so I would be most grateful to hear.

Best regards to you and Mike Petrov
Stuart Leonard


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Michael_Petrov
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Leonard]
      #42485 - 29/11/05 07:53 AM

I have not had time to read this entire post , my apology if this has been covered.

The Purdey reference I used in the first article was taken from advertisements by Roberts and Kimball. I have no reason to believe that he ever work at Purdey.

Mr. Leonard please write me at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net




Published June, 1998
Leonard & Hyde:
Tracking Samuel A. Leonard has been like looking for an arctic fox in a snowstorm. I know he existed but I just cannot get a complete picture of him. Sometime before 1928 Leonard left his job as head stocker for Purdey’s of London and emigrated to New York City.

Before 1935 George J. Hyde, who was the shop foreman and metal man at Griffin & Howe quit G&H and went into business for himself. Leonard teamed up with Hyde and their rifles are marked “No. XXX Leonard & Hyde New York” on the barrel. In May of 1935 Ned Roberts and his father-in-law W.G.C. Kimball went into business together as “Roberts and Kimball” in Woburn, Massachusetts. Their idea was to make high-quality sporting and varmint rifles on Mauser actions in the then popular cartridge that bears Roberts’ name, the .257 Roberts. Metal work on these Roberts & Kimball guns was done by Hyde and the stocking was done by Leonard. Some information suggests that Leonard and Hyde did not relocate to Massachusetts but that the work was sent to them in New York City. Roberts & Kimball company lasted less than a year and their rifles are not found very often. As far as I know the barrels are marked “Roberts & Kimball”. (Is that right Dave?) Before or after this business failed Leonard made “Best” quality sidelock double barrel shotguns and sporting rifles under his own name. The illustrated Leonard-Springfield sporter is marked “No. 219 S. A. Leonard New York". In outward appearance this rifle looks like a G&H as far as all the refinements on the metal. It has the matted receiver top, thumb print on the floorplate, finely checkered trigger, ramp front and barrel band sling swivel. I have no doubt that the metal work was done by Hyde. One known Leonard shotgun is marked No. 1945. What these numbers stand for I have no idea, but I do know that Leonard did not make 219 guns, much less 1,945 of them. The quality of workmanship on all of Leonard’s is as good as Griffin & Howe’s. After the Roberts & Kimball business failure I have found nothing more about Mr. Leonard. Did he return to England, as so many others did at the outbreak of trouble with Germany? Whenever I think that the search is hopeless, I think of the length of time I spent trying to locate a relative of the late master engraver R.J. Kornbrath. After getting nowhere, my good friend John said “Why don’t you have a talk with his grandson. He lives over by you in South Anchorage." We may never know where Leonard went, but we do know what he left behind; Some beautifully made guns.

Published, June, 2001
Samuel A. Leonard:

Thanks to Douglas Tate’s book Birmingham Gunmakers published by safari Press 1997 (ISBN 1-57157-005-1), the early years of Samuel Arthur Leonard are now known. The Leonard Family, with father Daniel and sons Harry, Daniel and Samuel, operated under the name of “D. Leonard & Sons”. It appears that their specialty was the manufacture of double rifles for the trade, notably for W.J. Jeffery. During WWI, Harry, Daniel and Samuel served as Armourers in England, all with the rank of sergeant. Tate also tells about how Samuel Leonard traveled to the United Sates and would advertise when he would be in various cities to carry out repairs. These tours may have been organized by W.J. Jeffrey & Company.
Since my 1998 article one Krag and one 1903 Springfield sporter surfaced; all marked with the same small “S.A. Leonard” stamp.









Edited by Michael_Petrov (29/11/05 08:03 AM)


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Michael_Petrov]
      #43160 - 05/12/05 08:54 PM

Hi,

2 pages from 1926 Jeffery catalogue.

Photobucket

Photobucket

Regards,

Norman


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Jeffery]
      #43164 - 05/12/05 10:38 PM

Terrific Norman, thanks heaps for that: certainly clears up a few points regarding the Prowling Tigers engraving. I was never sure whether they were available over-the-counter with that pattern.

The 1926 catalogue has just been added to my books 'wish-list'!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Marrakai]
      #43258 - 06/12/05 11:17 PM

Apologies, the previous two are actually from the 1928 catalogue. Two more pages from 1928 attached.

Regards,

Norman

Photobucket

Photbucket


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Jeffery]
      #43270 - 07/12/05 01:24 AM

Norman,
Glad you had a great time in Texas!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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mickey
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Rusty]
      #45302 - 30/12/05 04:20 PM

Very interesting. I thought I would bring it back to the top as I am negotiating on a Jeffery 400 3" and may want some input.

Does anyone know who W. Jefferies of Calcuttta was?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: mickey]
      #46312 - 10/01/06 08:53 PM

Happy New Year to one and all.

2 pages from the 1928 Catalogue on the .400 calibre.

Regards,

Norman

Photobucket

Photobucket


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Redleg6
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #46368 - 11/01/06 12:28 PM

Gentlemen,

I was referred by some of the fine fellows over at gunshop.com and this is my first post. Thank you for this wonderful and most interesting discussion of one of the great British gunmakers. I have gained an amazing amount of knowledge from your scholarship on the subject. It is of special interest to me as I have just purchased a Jeffery .333 double rifle and am waiting anxiously for delivery later this week. It is my first British express double rifle. We will soon make a trip down to Enid to have JJ give his stamp of approval help me work up some appropriate loads. I was wondering if any of you recognize this rifle.



Thanks again.

Regards,

Bob Blair


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Redleg6]
      #46395 - 11/01/06 05:12 PM

Welcome to the true cognoscenti, Bob!

Can you tell us whether the proof-marks on the barrel flats of your.333 specify a 250-grain or a 300-grain bullet? There is a belief that all guns were marked "300 gr max", even though some (most, perhaps?) are believed to be regulated for the 250gr bullet. I'm not sure this is true, and would love to hear of one marked "250 gr max".

The only one I have played with showed "300 gr max" and shot that bullet weight to the sights. I would have bought that gun if the bores were better, they were unfortunately quite dark and corrugated in the rifling grooves and it wouldn't hold any better than about 5 inches. A great pity as it was very fine externally.

Good luck with your load development, you will soon be an expert at neck-annealing at the very least!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Redleg6]
      #46405 - 12/01/06 12:11 AM

Bob:

That looks really nice. I like the look of it better than I did the Westley. It will make a great pig rifle.
-------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #46454 - 12/01/06 10:53 PM

Hi Marrakai,

In the 1928 catalogue (page attached) Jeffreys indicate that the .333 double rifle is regulated for the 250 grain bullet only.

Photobucket

Regards,

Norman


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Redleg6
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #46594 - 14/01/06 10:48 AM

I received my new (old) rifle today and thought I'd post an update. I'm pretty thrilled!

This is W.J. Jeffery .333 EX ejector double rifle #24382 with Leonard (I think) chopper lump barrels #1887. It has two sets of southgate?? ejectors, one for flanged and one for rimless cartridges. The barrel flats are marked with the caliber, the BP,BV and NP proofs, Cordite 42 and 300 max (sorry Marrakai) markings. The bores are brilliant with flat lands and sharp edged grooves and no discoloration....maybe not quite new, but very good in my uneducated opinion.There are leaf sights for 200, 300, 400, and 500 yards and a rod front sight. The is a doll's head and third bite and the 13 King Street, St.James St., London address.

The reciever has the big headed tigers and standard #3 model engraving, disc set strikers, gold "safe", blank oval, thin Silvers pad and pretty nice wood with many decades of handling marks and a *385 stamped in the wood just behind the plain grip cap. There is no cheek piece.....thanks, I'm a lefty. The water tables are stamped with the BV proof marks. Case color is at about 40% while barrel black is 90%.

I will try to post good pics soon. I think this is going to make a fine piggy rifle if it can make a decent group. Any info you could supply based on the above specs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the welcome to an obviously elite group of knowlegable gentlemen...hope I can live up to the club standards eventually.

Regards,

Bob



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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Redleg6]
      #46601 - 14/01/06 12:19 PM

Very interesting, Bob. Sounds like this gun is as good as it looks.

Jeffery assigned it's serial numbers in blocks. No. 24382 is from a block that covered guns that were sold 1913-1923 (24241-24480). My reference works say that Jeffery closed both the King Street and Queen Victoria Street outlets and moved to 26 Bury Street in 1914. So, it would seem that 1913-1914 has to be the approximate date.

The Leonard number of 1887, stamped on the lower rib just in front of the fore-end loop, I would have guessed at 1911-1912. Looks like my A. Hollis & Son .400 is a touch later than I thought. Damn. It's 35 units later than yours.

I have no idea what the "*385" behind the grip cap means, but I hope someone here does. My .400 doesn't have this, but I have a William Evans DR that has an asterisk stamped close up behind the grip cap, as you described, but no number. I've always wondered about that.

Thank you for sharing this information with us, Bob. It has been useful to me, and interesting besides. Really looking forward to more pictures. Post a close-up of the Leonard number if you can.
---------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Leonard
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Redleg6]
      #47788 - 24/01/06 08:05 PM

Hi bob,
Nice to see what appears to be another Leonard Gun coming to light.
Hope you are pleased with it
Regards
Stuart Leonard


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #47796 - 24/01/06 09:05 PM

WTG Bob!

Congrats!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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bobc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #48677 - 31/01/06 10:48 AM

OK, my new (old) Hollis 450-400 ser #15*** has a 2 digit '85' on the underside of the barrels. Bob

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bonanza
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bobc]
      #48687 - 31/01/06 11:55 AM

My Jeffery is 895 and my A.Hollis is 836.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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Leonard
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #52591 - 16/03/06 07:41 PM

Hello Keith,

I see that you wrote an article on Jeffery double rifles some time ago. I would be interested to read it as I am collecting as much info as I can on Jeffery(and Leonard)- do you still have a copy or know how or where I could get one?

Best regards
Stuart Leonard.


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470evans
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #55011 - 17/04/06 06:40 AM

After reading this string many times, several in the last week, I finally have something to contribute.

With some help from 400 Nitro Express, NE 450 No 2 and JJ Perodeau, I purchased a Jeffery 400 3 inch and brought it home 2 days ago.

It has 24 inch extractor barrels, heel and toe plates and no cheekpiece. It has a dolls head with third bite. The gun is a 55 Cordite gun. It has very nice model 3 engraving and is in excellent condition.
The gun is cased and the serial number is from the 1913 - 1923 block with the Bury St address. The Leonard number is 1966.

As soon as I get a chance I'll post some pictures.

I have Dies, Brass and Bullets on the way and will post on the shooting results shortly.


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NE450No2
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470evans]
      #55020 - 17/04/06 11:56 AM

470 Evans
It looks like I am going back to Enid on Wed. with my friend with the 470 Chapuis.
Are you sure you do not want me to take that Jeffery 400 and have a scope fitted?


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470evans]
      #55083 - 18/04/06 09:35 AM

Congratulations on your new double!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470evans]
      #55107 - 18/04/06 01:51 PM

470evans,

Congratulations and yes, do find time to post pictures.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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A10ACN
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #55269 - 20/04/06 03:13 AM

If that's the one I'm thinking of- Color me GREEN!!!

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Huvius
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: A10ACN]
      #214588 - 14/08/12 12:42 PM

Anybody see the .500 bolt gun at Cabelas?

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gun-Libra...ery/1413135.uts

I don't know where the Palos Verdes Estates location comes from.
I talked to the Fort Worth Gun Library and they confirmed that is what is engraved on the barrel.
Any ideas?
Looks to be a decent gun for the price ($7K)if it feeds reliably but there are a cuple things I see that make me wonder.
I will see if aybody chimes in here to see what the consensus is on the gun.
FWIW, I tink the square bridge is original to the action and not welded up.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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500Nitro
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Huvius]
      #214590 - 14/08/12 12:46 PM



Palos Verdes Estates


It is in California.


Description: W. Jeffery & Son, Plymouth & Palos Verdes Estates Commercial Mauser; built up and added square to bridge.


Note the "built up and added square to bridge."


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Huvius
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 500Nitro]
      #214592 - 14/08/12 01:20 PM

I knew were Palos Verdes Estates was from spending a little time around San Pedro and Hermosa/Manhattan/Redondo but I was wondering if there was any connection at all to Jeffery in England?
The man at the Gun Library mentioned the little cavity at the base of the bridge just above the bolt release as evidence of a possible "built-up" square bridge, but I think it is just a little nick/dent in the metal and not a void from welding.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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500Nitro
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Huvius]
      #214595 - 14/08/12 01:56 PM



So why does it say on the description at the bottom
of the page "Note the "built up and added square to bridge."

???

Seems weird they say one thing but have the complete
opposite in the description on the web site.

.


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Huvius
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 500Nitro]
      #214596 - 14/08/12 02:05 PM

From our conversation, I think they assume that any Mauser action with a thumb cut and stripper clip recess is of military origin, so the square bridge MUST be added on...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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500Nitro
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Huvius]
      #214597 - 14/08/12 02:17 PM



What "the little cavity at the base of the bridge just above the bolt release as evidence of a possible "built-up" square bridge,
"


Where aboutls exactly.

In front of the square bridge, to the side ?


Are you talking where the action is cut back towards the Square Bridge ?


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Huvius
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 500Nitro]
      #214601 - 14/08/12 03:05 PM

Think they are talking about this (circled in red)



--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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500Nitro
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Huvius]
      #214604 - 14/08/12 03:51 PM

IMHO it's in the right spot for a void but you really would have to have it in your hands and have a really close look at it.

Just my HO of course, would be interested in other people's thoughts.

.

Edited by 500Nitro (14/08/12 03:52 PM)


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