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Marrakai
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Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #41201 - 11/11/05 02:13 AM

Norman (Jeffery):
If Paul Roberts has passed on a request from you to the owners of the Jeffery records, it may take some time for them to respond, but I suspect you will be happy with the eventual result. My own request took many months but I am very grateful for the information and the very fine copy of the ledger entry. Have patience!

Stuart (Leonard):
Thanks for the info on the Leonard lineage, invaluable to a double-gun anglophile like me. Every time I pick up my Jeffery .400 double I realise just how damn good the thing feels, your ancestors certainly knew how to build lively, sweet-handling, perfectly balanced rifles. That heritage must be a source of great pride.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41204 - 11/11/05 02:22 AM

I am looking forward to exchanging information with Stuart and his Leonard heritage and history.

This is indeed a great moment in my research on double rifles!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41288 - 11/11/05 09:41 PM

G'day Marrakai,

(Notice the bi-lingual capabilities)

Looked at your web site, would love to visit. Thanks for replying, interesting that you should include a reply to Stu in the same message as he and I have been friends for years. We both are very intereested in the Leonard guns, I am waiting to shoot his D. Leonard and Son 12 bore DB damascus barreled hammer gun and will let him try my Jeffery.

Also to Rusty, I spent a couple of years in McAllen and was lucky enought to be invited to some white wing dove days. Also shot a number of American rifles and pistols, including the .357 magnum and colt 45 auto. The gun shops were awesome. Quite an experience for a Limey, considering the legal requirements in the UK. As far as large bores in the UK go, I have been limited to .303 and 7.62 mm. But have fired Bren and Vickers machine guns!

Regards,

Norman


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41292 - 12/11/05 01:50 AM

A late reply to the question of catalogues later than 1910/1911

Hi Marrakai,

Stuart and I both have a copy of the 1928 Jeffery catalogue. The "prowling tigers" gun is listed on page 29, Classified as

Jefferys No. 3 Model Cordite Express Rifle in .333, .375 Magnum, .400, & .475 No. 2 Bore calibres. Top lever Anson & Dealy Action, Dolls Head Extension, 24" nickel steel barrels, Sighted to 300 yards (or to 500 if required)

The barrels have solid lumps and not merely a separate piece of steel brazed to the Barrel as is usually the case in medium-priced weapons. Cartridges for these Cordite Rifles can usually be obtained at short notice from the leading Indian Gunmakers. Prices No. 3 Model Ejector 70 English pounds No. 3 model Non-Ejector 60 English pounds. Approximate postage to Australia and New Zealand 6 shillings and sixpence. Catalogue also had Cartridges in .400 Jeffrey calibre with 400 grain solid, soft nose or split nose bullets cost 3 English pounds per 100.

Regards,

Norman


Edited by Jeffery (12/11/05 01:52 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #41533 - 15/11/05 01:20 AM

In reply to:

am new to this forum and am not sure how you copy messages to other members so apologise for not copying you emails I sent to Rusty. I don't see a copy button!





Stuart

If you would like anything relevant to double rifles, the Leonards actions, or family history displayed on NitroExpress.com (for public viewing) just ask.

I will send you an email.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Jeffery]
      #41556 - 15/11/05 11:00 AM

Jeffery:
Well how 'bout that: an example of negative inflation on British gun prices.

Your 1928 catalogue lists the No.3 model ejector at 70 quid, whereas the ledger-extract (copy) in my possession lists the same gun as 60 quid ten years later. Difference between the Roaring Twenties and the Great Depression perhaps?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41648 - 16/11/05 06:21 AM

I have just recieved from George Caswell of Champlin Firearms in Enid, OK., a page of Jeffery records. Unfortunately these are the only ones he has.

400NitroExpress and I are in the process of trying to obtain others. I have no idea the timeline for access to others' records if ever. We're trying! Please note the dates 1913-1920. Leonard supplied barreled actions.

I hope that you can read this.


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #41728 - 16/11/05 08:42 PM

What a fantastic piece of social history. It is interesting that the first two name references (1913) only give the name Leonard, the remainder (1917 & 1920)are H Leonard. Maybe Stu can give an indication if the first two are from the Daniel era!

Regards,

Norman


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Jeffery]
      #41886 - 18/11/05 08:23 PM

Stuart, sent me a private msg last week. It gives some of the lineage of the Leonards.
In reply to:

Daniel was the son of Samuel Leonard a gun and pistol maker who started his own business (D Leonard Gunmaker, which became D Leonard and Son and then later D Leonard and Sons). Harry, Daniels son, ran the business after Daniel died and Harry's son Charles Leonard ran the business after Harry died. The family was quite extensive each generation having many sons most of whom went into the gun trade which gave the firm many relatives to call upon to work on orders. Harry Leonard also made guns under his own name H. Leonard, B'ham. I also have Henry as my second forename.
Earlier Leonard Guns have L&S as stampings as my own gun has.




--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #42315 - 25/11/05 02:40 AM

Christies auction sale London 14 December 2005 has the following

Lot 31 Jeffery .577 DB boxlock non-ejector serial number 2416 estimate 6500 to 9000 English Pounds

Lot 32 I Hollis .450 (3 1/4" nitro-express) DB boxlock non-ejector serial number 15018 estimate 4500 to 6500 English pounds.

Both are pictured. Dig deep into your pockets friends!

Regards,

Norman


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Jeffery]
      #42330 - 25/11/05 10:09 AM

Try this one on for size. . .Holland & Holland New York Gun Room

A. Hollis and Son 470 boxlock. I've checked, it's a Leonard action. $42,000 USD. Here a link to the site
Holland and Holland New York

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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vigillinus
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Rusty]
      #42459 - 28/11/05 03:26 PM

Not on double rifles, but I have a Krag with a gold oval engraved "To my friend Anthony Fiala from S.A. Leonard", Mike Petrov says that S.A. was head stocker for Purdeys, a son of Daniel, was in the U.S. firm Leonard & Hyde (George Hyde designed submachine guns and did metalwork for Griffin & Howe), S.A. also did stockwork for Baker & Kimball in
Boston. Fiala was an inventor & outfitter, designed a .22 repeating pistol that looked like a Colt Woodsman, went on expeditions to the Arctic, and up the Amazon with Theodore Roosevelt, Bill Ruger told me he bought a couple of machine guns from Fiala before WWII. Petrov has a 1903 sporter signed by S.A., it has the same cheekpiece shape as my Krag. These Leonards certainly got around.


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Leonard
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Loc: Germany
Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: vigillinus]
      #42464 - 28/11/05 11:04 PM

Hi Vigillinus,

I note with interest that you refer to an S A Leonard and that you have information from Mike Petrov that he was the son of Daniel. I have looked in our family records and the Samuel who was my G Grandfathers Brother (i.e. brother of Harry Leonard) did not leave UK also he was a gun barrel filer. However there were other Daniel Leonards co existing, cousins etc., who were in the gunmaking trade.

Do you or Mike Petrov have any other information? If so I would be most grateful to hear.

Best regards to you and Mike Petrov
Stuart Leonard


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Michael_Petrov
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Reged: 29/11/05
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Loc: Alaska
Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Leonard]
      #42485 - 29/11/05 07:53 AM

I have not had time to read this entire post , my apology if this has been covered.

The Purdey reference I used in the first article was taken from advertisements by Roberts and Kimball. I have no reason to believe that he ever work at Purdey.

Mr. Leonard please write me at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net




Published June, 1998
Leonard & Hyde:
Tracking Samuel A. Leonard has been like looking for an arctic fox in a snowstorm. I know he existed but I just cannot get a complete picture of him. Sometime before 1928 Leonard left his job as head stocker for Purdey’s of London and emigrated to New York City.

Before 1935 George J. Hyde, who was the shop foreman and metal man at Griffin & Howe quit G&H and went into business for himself. Leonard teamed up with Hyde and their rifles are marked “No. XXX Leonard & Hyde New York” on the barrel. In May of 1935 Ned Roberts and his father-in-law W.G.C. Kimball went into business together as “Roberts and Kimball” in Woburn, Massachusetts. Their idea was to make high-quality sporting and varmint rifles on Mauser actions in the then popular cartridge that bears Roberts’ name, the .257 Roberts. Metal work on these Roberts & Kimball guns was done by Hyde and the stocking was done by Leonard. Some information suggests that Leonard and Hyde did not relocate to Massachusetts but that the work was sent to them in New York City. Roberts & Kimball company lasted less than a year and their rifles are not found very often. As far as I know the barrels are marked “Roberts & Kimball”. (Is that right Dave?) Before or after this business failed Leonard made “Best” quality sidelock double barrel shotguns and sporting rifles under his own name. The illustrated Leonard-Springfield sporter is marked “No. 219 S. A. Leonard New York". In outward appearance this rifle looks like a G&H as far as all the refinements on the metal. It has the matted receiver top, thumb print on the floorplate, finely checkered trigger, ramp front and barrel band sling swivel. I have no doubt that the metal work was done by Hyde. One known Leonard shotgun is marked No. 1945. What these numbers stand for I have no idea, but I do know that Leonard did not make 219 guns, much less 1,945 of them. The quality of workmanship on all of Leonard’s is as good as Griffin & Howe’s. After the Roberts & Kimball business failure I have found nothing more about Mr. Leonard. Did he return to England, as so many others did at the outbreak of trouble with Germany? Whenever I think that the search is hopeless, I think of the length of time I spent trying to locate a relative of the late master engraver R.J. Kornbrath. After getting nowhere, my good friend John said “Why don’t you have a talk with his grandson. He lives over by you in South Anchorage." We may never know where Leonard went, but we do know what he left behind; Some beautifully made guns.

Published, June, 2001
Samuel A. Leonard:

Thanks to Douglas Tate’s book Birmingham Gunmakers published by safari Press 1997 (ISBN 1-57157-005-1), the early years of Samuel Arthur Leonard are now known. The Leonard Family, with father Daniel and sons Harry, Daniel and Samuel, operated under the name of “D. Leonard & Sons”. It appears that their specialty was the manufacture of double rifles for the trade, notably for W.J. Jeffery. During WWI, Harry, Daniel and Samuel served as Armourers in England, all with the rank of sergeant. Tate also tells about how Samuel Leonard traveled to the United Sates and would advertise when he would be in various cities to carry out repairs. These tours may have been organized by W.J. Jeffrey & Company.
Since my 1998 article one Krag and one 1903 Springfield sporter surfaced; all marked with the same small “S.A. Leonard” stamp.









Edited by Michael_Petrov (29/11/05 08:03 AM)


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Michael_Petrov]
      #43160 - 05/12/05 08:54 PM

Hi,

2 pages from 1926 Jeffery catalogue.

Photobucket

Photobucket

Regards,

Norman


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Jeffery]
      #43164 - 05/12/05 10:38 PM

Terrific Norman, thanks heaps for that: certainly clears up a few points regarding the Prowling Tigers engraving. I was never sure whether they were available over-the-counter with that pattern.

The 1926 catalogue has just been added to my books 'wish-list'!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Marrakai]
      #43258 - 06/12/05 11:17 PM

Apologies, the previous two are actually from the 1928 catalogue. Two more pages from 1928 attached.

Regards,

Norman

Photobucket

Photbucket


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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Jeffery]
      #43270 - 07/12/05 01:24 AM

Norman,
Glad you had a great time in Texas!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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mickey
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: Rusty]
      #45302 - 30/12/05 04:20 PM

Very interesting. I thought I would bring it back to the top as I am negotiating on a Jeffery 400 3" and may want some input.

Does anyone know who W. Jefferies of Calcuttta was?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History - Leonard family [Re: mickey]
      #46312 - 10/01/06 08:53 PM

Happy New Year to one and all.

2 pages from the 1928 Catalogue on the .400 calibre.

Regards,

Norman

Photobucket

Photobucket


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Redleg6
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Morten]
      #46368 - 11/01/06 12:28 PM

Gentlemen,

I was referred by some of the fine fellows over at gunshop.com and this is my first post. Thank you for this wonderful and most interesting discussion of one of the great British gunmakers. I have gained an amazing amount of knowledge from your scholarship on the subject. It is of special interest to me as I have just purchased a Jeffery .333 double rifle and am waiting anxiously for delivery later this week. It is my first British express double rifle. We will soon make a trip down to Enid to have JJ give his stamp of approval help me work up some appropriate loads. I was wondering if any of you recognize this rifle.



Thanks again.

Regards,

Bob Blair


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Redleg6]
      #46395 - 11/01/06 05:12 PM

Welcome to the true cognoscenti, Bob!

Can you tell us whether the proof-marks on the barrel flats of your.333 specify a 250-grain or a 300-grain bullet? There is a belief that all guns were marked "300 gr max", even though some (most, perhaps?) are believed to be regulated for the 250gr bullet. I'm not sure this is true, and would love to hear of one marked "250 gr max".

The only one I have played with showed "300 gr max" and shot that bullet weight to the sights. I would have bought that gun if the bores were better, they were unfortunately quite dark and corrugated in the rifling grooves and it wouldn't hold any better than about 5 inches. A great pity as it was very fine externally.

Good luck with your load development, you will soon be an expert at neck-annealing at the very least!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Redleg6]
      #46405 - 12/01/06 12:11 AM

Bob:

That looks really nice. I like the look of it better than I did the Westley. It will make a great pig rifle.
-------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Jeffery
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #46454 - 12/01/06 10:53 PM

Hi Marrakai,

In the 1928 catalogue (page attached) Jeffreys indicate that the .333 double rifle is regulated for the 250 grain bullet only.

Photobucket

Regards,

Norman


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Redleg6
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #46594 - 14/01/06 10:48 AM

I received my new (old) rifle today and thought I'd post an update. I'm pretty thrilled!

This is W.J. Jeffery .333 EX ejector double rifle #24382 with Leonard (I think) chopper lump barrels #1887. It has two sets of southgate?? ejectors, one for flanged and one for rimless cartridges. The barrel flats are marked with the caliber, the BP,BV and NP proofs, Cordite 42 and 300 max (sorry Marrakai) markings. The bores are brilliant with flat lands and sharp edged grooves and no discoloration....maybe not quite new, but very good in my uneducated opinion.There are leaf sights for 200, 300, 400, and 500 yards and a rod front sight. The is a doll's head and third bite and the 13 King Street, St.James St., London address.

The reciever has the big headed tigers and standard #3 model engraving, disc set strikers, gold "safe", blank oval, thin Silvers pad and pretty nice wood with many decades of handling marks and a *385 stamped in the wood just behind the plain grip cap. There is no cheek piece.....thanks, I'm a lefty. The water tables are stamped with the BV proof marks. Case color is at about 40% while barrel black is 90%.

I will try to post good pics soon. I think this is going to make a fine piggy rifle if it can make a decent group. Any info you could supply based on the above specs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the welcome to an obviously elite group of knowlegable gentlemen...hope I can live up to the club standards eventually.

Regards,

Bob



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