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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25133 - 25/01/05 03:00 PM

Here is a page from Jeffery's Order Ledger from the 1901/02 period;


Some interesting observations;

*Of the ten consecutively numbered rifles and shotguns (including one "Ball Gun"), all were finished by Scotts. Since this post-dates the 1897 merger of P. Webley with W.C. Scott & Son it is interesting to speculate that Jeffery's previous altercations with Webley had been set aside by then, although he is perhaps pointedly ignoring the Webley involvement by leaving the name off his records?

* All three .400S DB Rifles listed show the cost of the "tubes" separately, suggesting that they weren't supplied by Webley & Scott. The barrels were "Nickel Steel"

* All three DB rifles were fitted with Baker ejectors, contrary to later rifles which invariably have Southgate ejectors.

* Over a five month period (14th October - 13th March), ten guns were "made"; that's only two per month! This begs the question - did Jeffery keep individual ledgers for different suppliers? This could explain why his ledgers always seem to list only one supplier on each page?

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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25150 - 25/01/05 08:22 PM

Why would they keep seperate books?

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25156 - 25/01/05 10:06 PM

I have tossed up pwm's teutonic print of a tiger-hunt, but its a bit too big to fit here. Shrinking it will lose too much detail, I had to do some very creative image-editing to get it under 200kb as it is! Have a look here:

Tiger Hunt


Meanwhile, here's another example of the engraving:


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25173 - 26/01/05 03:49 AM

470 rigby, you must have a fine archives, send me a PM with your e-mail address. i will look for the issue with the old photos and send it to you.
marrakail
what I mean is not the big cat in middle,but the two in the margin. I believe you have a similar development with pictures from elephants in the time between 1850 and 1900. the picture of an animal goes in this time from a naiv to a photographic exact manner.this dont mean that you are not able to recognice a tiger as a tiger. the naive style try to show the characteristic feature's of this animal. if the gun was made for an idian custumer it seem me clear that this was the rigth way because its more relative with the culture the people live and think.
you must say that it lost much of its quality now when you have shooting down 300 kb but its good that you are able to post it. I hope the gentleman here enjoi it.

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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25174 - 26/01/05 03:55 AM

I dont think that the print was teutonic, you will find the name A.H.Payne sc. and the "the Tiger Hunt" plus "Die Tigerjagd".
I believe it was printed in Britain but also for the german market.
Look for the lady on the rigth side figthing against the tiger with the sunshade.

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mehulkamdar
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Posts: 3688
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25177 - 26/01/05 05:43 AM

Marakkai and pwm,

The German print is almost identical to the Raj era hunt paintings both by British as well as by Indian artists that I have seen. The line engraving on the Jeffery is different and very similar to South Indian temple paintings. The reason I am saying this is that in ancient India, when many of the temples were built by carving into rock in aroung AD 900, there was no way to stabilise the colour yellow in paint and tigers were carved into the rocks in outline. Many years later, the Muslims brought yellow pigment to India and the line carvings were just filled in with the yellow pigment fully, without any depth ot domension to the painting. Unless you see the sight close up, you would not understand the difference between the German picture and the engraving on the rifle. I'll try and find some links and e-mail them to you to show you what I mean.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25201 - 26/01/05 01:48 PM

Mehul

Pehaps this is now becoming "off-topic" and of absolutely no interest to other members, but

In reply to:

Many years later, the Muslims brought yellow pigment to India


perhaps this was true of South India, but as this part of a 5th Century AD Frescoe from one of the Ajanta caves in Central India shows;


The use of pigments, including yellow was not unkown before Mughal times.

These were done with very expensive pigments imported by the Budhist era painters responsible these these Frescoes, which were far in advance of anything being done Europe at the time. The blues were apparently added at a later time when lapis lazuli became avalaible.

These Frescoes had lain forgotten for 1000 years until re-discovered in 1819 by an Englishman out Tiger hunting. I have been there, but don't recall any depictions of Tigers.

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #25206 - 26/01/05 05:51 PM

In reply to:

Why would they keep seperate books?



The surviving Jeffery records are "Order Ledgers", and it is not unusual for businesses to keep separate order books for different suppliers. I do it myself, albeit using an alphanumeric code to differentiate suppliers.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25209 - 26/01/05 07:45 PM

470 Rigby,

The Ajanta and Ellora caves were begun in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD and the pgments used there had been brought in to Northern and North western India by the Greeks first under Alexander and later under Menander. They were expanded and completed by the 6th century AD. The Greeks did not come to the South and neither did any of their influences during the turmoil between the various Southern dynasties and the Hindus and Buddhists and Jains.

The yellow, saffron and orange colours were brought to Madurai in pigment form by Allauddin Khilji around 1300 AD, long before the Mughals set foot in India. The Mughals also did not ever manage to conquer the Southernmost parts of India as they had to stop at what is now Maharashtra because the Maratthas stopped their expansion southwards.

There is as good as a wall of separation between North and South India, between what are essentially Dravidian and mixed Dravidian/Aryan civilisations. One region simply cannot be compared with the other as the development of religion, art and culture in both are almost completely different.

Best wishes,

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25228 - 27/01/05 04:22 AM

it may be of topicībut its very interesting, I wonder that pigments are unknow before Moghal time. that means that the old idian culture dont have coloured pictures, rigth? hard to believe that a country(I know its more a continent)dont have most time colours. maybe I have to understand it in the way that colours making of and with pigments are unknow in old india but they have more primitive colours making from plants which can't stand long time special in tropical climate?

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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25245 - 27/01/05 01:50 PM

pwm,

While textile pigments like indigo were available in South India and there is evidence that even the Romans traded in these and in spices at Poompuhar, the colour yellow and ochre, orange and saffron were not available as pigments there. These were brought by Allauddin Khilji in the early 1300s during his campaign against the Southern Hindu kingdoms and almost 170 years before the Mughals came into India.

Also, as I said earlier, the Mughals never made it to South India as their push Southwards was thwarted by the Maratthas.



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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A10ACN
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Reged: 30/01/05
Posts: 198
Loc: USA
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25423 - 30/01/05 10:13 AM

As an owner of a W.J. Jeffery 450 No.2, I've been following this thread with interest. All of y'all's scratchin and finger pointin finally motivated me to pull my rifle out of the safe. Now, my rifle is the typical pre-war, gaur/buffalo/bison engraved, scalloped back action, Jeffery. It has 24 inch Krupp steel bbls, 1 and 4 lvs. The only thing a little different about it is the 'Made Expressly For Lyon and Lyon, Calcutta' engraved on the bbls along with the 13 King Street St James, Jeffery Address. Obviously a Leonard built gun for Jeffery and retailed for Lyon and Lyon in India. Right?? Well, after looking for the Leonard 4 digit number that Rusty mentioned, I grabbed the copy of the ledger that Paul Roberts was able to provide for me. Imagine my surprise when I looked on the ledger and saw Turner as the only builder of my rifle (#16444). The same goes for the other rifles on the page, all top lever A/D DBs (#16441-16450, all 450 No.2s, 400 Ss, and 1 400/360. Dates-June 1906-June 1907(1).
I've even told people that my rifle was a Leonard built rifle-all scalloped backs were, right???? Wrong, again, it seems!!!! Sorry no pic capability.
A10ACN

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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: A10ACN]
      #25435 - 30/01/05 02:57 PM

Actually the real test for the Leonard action is the 4 digit number on the under rib near the barrel loop.
Does yours have such a number?

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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A10ACN
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Reged: 30/01/05
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #25437 - 30/01/05 04:34 PM

Nope, no Leonard number. Makes one wonder if Jeffery DID keep a ledger for each out-builder, since all the rifles on my ledger page were Turners. I need to find the other Jeffery ledger page I have around here for a 404 I once owned. Then there is the 404 I now own that is listed in Speed's Mauser book as a Jeffery, has Jeffery address and number engraved on it, typical Jeffery stock lay out (AKA model A Mauser), and the Jeffery mid-length tapered bbl, however its recorded as a 12 bore shotgun in Jeffery's records!?!?! Maybe there is another Mauser ledger that is missing???
A10ACN

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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: A10ACN]
      #25454 - 31/01/05 12:37 AM

My question is , who supplied the actions after Turner closed down?

Who else in the trades kept seperate records for differant suppliers?

As soon as George Caswell gets back from Reno, I have been promised a copy of all the Jeffery records he has in his possession.

I will post all those records here when I get them and can scan them to the computer.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #25470 - 31/01/05 08:37 AM

Rusty

Looking forward to that.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #26632 - 22/02/05 02:09 AM

OK, back to the top again.

Last week, I received the long-awaited letter from the current owners of the Jeffery records in the US. A copy of the ledger page containing my .400 double was enclosed. Here's the entry pertaining to the rifle in question:



The correspondant commented on the 'handsome penmanship' but regretted that the abbreviations were 'quite difficult to discern in some cases'. Fortunately for us, we are fluent in the language of the pommie gun-maker here!

.450/400; 3-inch case; Model 3; Hammerless ejector; 24-inch barrels; Standing plus 2 leaf to 300 yards; Bead foresight with disc; Anson forend; Doll's Head extension with bite; Pistol-grip stock; Trap with spare sight; 10 lbs; made 15/02/39; Cost price 40 pounds 7 and 6; Engraving 4 quid; Selling price 60 quid.

Now for the tricky bit. Made by "C.L."

...so who the hell is C.L.? Is this the next generation of Leonards? I am aware of Daniel the elder, and sons Harry, Daniel, and Samuel before the first war, but no-one with the initials C.L. The gun does have the 4-digit number generally attributed by other members of this forum to Harry Leonard:



1939 is a fairly late manufacture, so I am intrigued as to who the maker could be. Obviously the firm of Charles Lancaster was out of the picture by 1932. There is a Clive Lemon listed in Boothroyd's Directory, but no details given. The only detailed info I have on the Leonard family comes from Tate, no hints there.

Can anyone throw me a bone here?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Leonard
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #41031 - 09/11/05 12:45 AM

Hi Rusty

I sent you an email earlier today but was not sure if it was transmitted correctly as it did not appear in my "sent" box.

Please advise

Stewart Leonard

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41039 - 09/11/05 03:16 AM

Hey Marrakai:

Go to www.champlinarms.com and open the vault. Do a search on double rifles. Check out the W. J. Jeffery 450/400 3" Best Sidelock Ejector. Jeffery's SN is 25,574, 15 guns earlier than yours. Maker's number, stamped in exactly the same place and manner (as all of these maker's numbers we're discussing here are) is 3348.

Rusty and I have both owned A. Hollis & Son .450/.400 3" boxlocks for years and got started in this line of research due to the striking similarities between our guns and SOME of the Jeffery's. Some of the Jeffery guns have that 4 digit number in front of the loop, but quite a few don't. Virtually all of the Hollis guns do. Although you have to look "through" the strictly cosmetic differences, the Hollis guns and the Jeffery guns that have the same 4-digit number are the identical basic gun and are absolutely from the same trade maker. The Jeffery's that don't have this number are not the same gun and, I'm certain, came from different makers.

So whose number is this? I really think your surmise has to be correct - "C" is the next generation. As nearly as I can tell, Harry would certainly seem to have been retired by 1939, if not deceased. It would seem that there WAS a next generation that continued the business, because the firm continued to trade until 1965 or later.

Yes, this cryptic entry is frustrating, but offers a new line of inquiry. I'll let you know what I discover.

Is the maker's number on your gun 3289 or 3389? I can't quite make it out.
----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Leonard]
      #41064 - 09/11/05 06:19 AM

Stewart,
Wow, Great to hear from you and thanks for sharing a bit of your family's history.

I would be very grateful to exchange any information with you directly.

Please feel free to contact me at rkmojo@aol.com

Kindest regards,
Rusty Knight
Missouri City, Texas

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41065 - 09/11/05 06:28 AM

Marraki:

Well I'll be. Seems "C" is for Charles.
--------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41072 - 09/11/05 09:24 AM

400NE:
Unfortunately the Jeffery ledger page I have in my possession only covers SNs 25581 to 25590, though whoever picks that gun up will be able to get the goods from the current owner of the records for sure. I take it you've examined the sidelock personally, as the 4-digit number does not appear in the on-line photos I was able to view. Very nice rifle BTW, wish I had a few thou spare for the privelage of looking after it for a while!

The 4-digit number on my .400 BLE is 3362

Welcome to the forum, Leonard. You are a relative I take it? What relation to you was Charles? I too would very much appreciate a cc on any private e-mails as I have a long-standing interest in this topic also! marrakai577@hotmail.com
Cheers

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Jeffery
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Loc: Woodbridge Suffolk England
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41104 - 09/11/05 10:38 PM

Dear All,

Not quite a double rifle but a Jeffery S/S 12 bore shotgun nevertheless. The number of mine is 29867 and I wonder if anybody has the Jeffery references for this? I have spoken to Roberts earlier this year but no information has been sent yet.

A very interesting topic, if I may say so.

Regards,

Norman Poole Suffolk England

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41109 - 10/11/05 02:06 AM

Marrakai:

That one would be worth a "handling" fee, wouldn't it? Unfortunately no, I haven't had the pleasure yet. My friend CFA was headed up there to pick up his new Lang and his new Holland, so I asked him to handle it and look for the number. He called me while he was handling it and described it in detail while I took notes. He says the rifle looks nearly new.
----------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Leonard
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Reged: 08/11/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Germany
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #41200 - 11/11/05 01:56 AM

Hello Marrakai,

As to your question of what relation I am to Charles Leonard

Harry Leonard was my great grandfather and Charles Leonard was the youngest of his five sons. Who were:
Daniel (christened Walter Daniel, my grandfather)
Samuel
Henry
Fredrick
Charles

Charles was possibly the longest surviving also. All Harry's sons were in the gun trade. My Grandfather Daniel specialised in barrels (Barrel Filer)
Harry died around 1928 and I'm not absolutely sure but Charles would have been 80 in 1964 and his death, along with the destruction of two thirds of the Birmingham Gun Quatre to develop a ring road led, I believe, to the end of gunmaking by the Leonards.

This is also only one branch of the Leonard gunmakers as Harry leonard was one of three sons of Daniel Leonard the Founder who (I'm sure you can guess) were also in the gun trade. Harry's brothers were Daniel and Samuel who all had families with most sons going into the trade as well.

I am new to this forum and am not sure how you copy messages to other members so apologise for not copying you emails I sent to Rusty. I don't see a copy button!

Regards
Stuart Leonard
Germany



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