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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: shakari]
      #23840 - 10/01/05 12:55 PM

In reply to:

Is there any connection between this Thomas Turner and Thomas Turner Guns now based in Reading Berkshire UK?





Apart from the name ...No.

Regarding Hollis, you have got to differentiate between A. Hollis (Alfred B) whom I posted about earlier in this thread, and the more well known Isaac Hollis.

Here is a "cut & paste" job from the Internet Gun Club about that firm;

Name Isaac Hollis & Sons

Address 1 5-11 Weaman Row, Lench Street
Address 2 91-92 Lower Loveday Street
Address 3 91-92 Lower Loveday Street & 16-17 Loveday Street.
Address 4 16-17 Loveday Street.
Address 5
Address 6
Address 7
City/Town Birmingham
County
State/Region/Province
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun, Rifle & Pistol Makers
Other Address London offices: 83 Cheapside; 44a Cannon Street; 83 Cheapside; 6 Great Winchester Street; 26 Billiter Buildings; 101 Leadenhall Street; 9 New Broad Street; 54 Clerkenwell Road; 84 Goswell Road.
Dates 1814-1955
Notes
Isaac Hollis & Sons claimed establishment from 1814, i.e from Richard & William at Bath Street, but their immediate predecessor was the firm of Hollis & Sheath (see Hollis & Sheath 1849-1861).
Isaac Hollis & Sons became volume producers of military guns and inexpensive trade guns, but they also made quality sporting guns for the South African (e.g. A Cloag of Port Elizabeth) and Indian markets, the Australian and New Zealand markets, and the home market (e.g. Crockart of Blairgowrie).

In 1861 Isaac Hollis, by now at least 66 years old, appears to have been trading from 5-11 Weaman Row, Lench Street. He patented a trigger guard (No. 1082) and he patented another in 1868 (No. 4922) when he was over 73. It is not known when he died.

In 1870, presumably under the control of the sons, the firm opened a shop at 44a Cannon Street in London; in 1871 this moved to 83 Cheapside.

In 1876/1877 the firm became a limited liability company, Isaac Hollis & Sons Ltd, but by 1879 they were trading again as Isaac Hollis & Sons (which suggests short term financial difficulties).

From 1884 the London office was at 6 Great Winchester Street. From 1892 to 1899 the office was recorded at 26 Billiter Buildings, if the principal London offices were not at this address, 6 Great Winchester Street may have been wholesale offices.

It would appear that in 1899 the offices were moved to 101 Leadenhall Street. In 1903 they moved to 9 New Broad Street.

In about 1911 the firm formed a joint venture of some kind with Bentley & Playfair (see Hollis, Bentley & Playfair). The Birmingham factory seems to have been at 91-92 Lower Loveday Street at this time, but in about 1915 further factory space was taken at 16-17 Loveday Street.

By 1920, Bentley & Playfair appear to left the firm which traded as "Hollis, Bentley & Playfair (I Hollis & Sons)" from 54 Clerkenwell Road.

From 1931 to 1933 the firm traded as I Hollis & Sons from 54 Clerkenwell Road, and as Hollis, Bentley & Playfair from 84 Goswell Road. From 1933 they traded under both names but only from 84 Goswell Road.

From 1935 the firm traded as Hollis, Bentley & Playfair, the factory at 16-17 Loveday Street closed whilst the factory at 91 and 92 Lower Loveday Street continued to operate.

From 1938 to 1943 they traded only as Hollis, Bentley & Playfair but in 1943 closed their London offices.

The firm appears to have closed in 1955.

The full Hollis story is complicated and confusing because it was a large family. William Hollis was born in 1777 and established his business in 1807 at St Mary's Row, he was recorded there until 1811. [It is unlikely he was working on his own, and it is thought that he had at least one brother in the firm, possibly Richard (of Richard & William); Richard (1829-1853) of 3 Lench Street/20 St Mary's Row/79 Weaman Street was probably his nephew (presuming William had another brother)]. Between 1812 and 1816 William moved to 73 Bath Street. In 1838 the firm became William Hollis & Sons, but this partnership does not seem to have been a success and it reverted to William Hollis in 1839. The firm was last recorded in 1845, William died in 1856 at the age of 79 claiming to be the oldest manufacturer and contractor in the Birmingham Gun Trade.

In 1829 a Richard Hollis opened at 3 Lench Street, this may have been William's son but more likely it was a nephew. In 1833 Richard also occupied 20 St Mary's Row, but for one year only. In 1847 Richard moved from Lench Street to go to 79 Weaman Street, he closed in 1853, but it is possible that he teamed up with Christopher (brother or son?).

The firm of Hollis Brothers started trading from 11 Weaman Row in 1839. The partners were Isaac Hollis and Frederick Hollis who died in 1839. They stopped trading in 1848, to form Hollis & Sheath at 10-11 Weaman Row.

A cartridge named "Hollis Special Cartridge" in 20 bore exists in a private collection; it bears a Royal coat of arms but whether or not it applies to this firm is not known.\End Quote

Isaac Hollis was not noted as maker of high grade guns, but occasionally one comes across one with his name on it. Here is one such 450/400 double rifle;











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mickey
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23847 - 10/01/05 03:19 PM

So now that we are winding down on WJ Jefferies who was W Jefferies of Calcutta?

I have a friend that bought a 450#2 W Jefferies from Saunders in 1990 or so. A nice rifle but heavy.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: NE450No2]
      #23855 - 10/01/05 06:13 PM

450No2

In reply to:

Someone once told me that they thought Jeffery got his actions made in Europe, maybe Belgium




Here is a copy of a page from Jeffery's 1904-05 catalogue showing 16 and 20 bore guns that he sourced from Belgium.



Of interest is his ackowlegement that the Belgian makers could produce guns 30-40 pecent cheaper than the English, due to Belgian workers putting in a 12 hour day compared to the English working day of 7 or 8! Also, the Belgians worked for an hourly rate that was 20-30 pecent lower.

No doubt Jeffery bought from whoever was cheapest!


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shakari
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23935 - 12/01/05 04:16 AM

470Rigby,

Thanks for the info.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Rowdy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: shakari]
      #23965 - 12/01/05 04:07 PM

A second try to post a picture of my Jeffery - it has suffered a bit from the Indian climate and "gunsmiths"

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Rowdy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rowdy]
      #23982 - 12/01/05 11:59 PM

And the markings - I guess Mr Krupp did not make .303 bores.

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rowdy]
      #24047 - 14/01/05 12:06 AM

Rowdy,
That's a very early Jeffery .303 - in the 4xxx serial number range ?. Do you have any documentation (Ledger entries, etc) that might shed some light on it's origins?

Also, what are the small markings on the barrels next to the Serial? number? That might give a clue about the barrel maker?

Thanks


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rowdy]
      #24098 - 14/01/05 12:00 PM

Rowdy,

Thanks for posting a picture of your rifle. Whatever depredations the Indian weather and gunsmiths have made on it, it is still something that would drive a man crazy.

Absolutely beautiful rifle and in a superb caliber - the 303 is an old friend to me as an Indian. Congratulations and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Rowdy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #24346 - 17/01/05 12:12 PM

No information about it's history 470 - except it was retailed in India as it has Walter Locke & Co. Calcutta 9263 on the barrels.
The Jeffery address is 13 King Street St. James London.


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #24945 - 23/01/05 12:52 PM

A late post, to answer 470Rigby’s request for details of my .400 Jeffery.

The serial number is 25589, and the 4-digit number on the barrels is 3362. There is also a small letter ‘A’ obscurely stamped on the barrels near the forend-loop, and I have been told that Andrews may have made the barrels or indeed the entire rifle. It is chambered for the .400S, or Jeffery’s .450/.400 3-inch cartridge.




Seeking more info on the provenance of this double, I sent off a request to Paul Roberts some time ago, and he duly forwarded it to the US owner of the Jeffery records with the next batch of enquiries. Some time later, I received an e-mail from the US informing me that the information had been copied from the Jeffery records, and could I please provide a postal address for the extract. My return e-mail containing the postal address encountered fatal delivery errors!

I informed Paul of these developments, and he undertook to chase it up, but I have heard nothing more. Repeated attempts to reply-email the US party have received the same ‘undeliverable’ error. It just kills me to think that the info on my rifle has been extracted from the records and was actually sitting in an envelope waiting to be posted! Perhaps its time I chased this up again.

Regarding the ‘Maharajah gun’ nick-name, it has been universally applied to all Jeffery guns with the ‘prowling tigers’ engraving for as long as I can remember. It is clear that these guns were intended for India, and although often regarded as ‘working’ box-locks, many (including mine) have chopper-lump barrels, moon sights, Southgate ejectors, fully-engraved trap grip-caps, doll’s-head with third bite, bushed strikers, etc etc. It is clear that they are a level above the normal No.3 Pattern guns, more in line with the No.4 'Best quality' Pattern, and the speculation is that they were intended primarily as the ‘working guns’ within a Maharajah battery. On an organised tiger-shoot, for example, all visiting dignitaries would be given a double rifle, and assigned to an elephant, in order to participate in the hunt.

My own example bears the number ‘29’ boldly engraved on the oval, and Paul Roberts agreed that this is most likely a Maharajah rack-number. I’d like to have seen numbers 1 through 10!

Originally it was thought that the naïve engraving of the tigers (ie their-‘boof-headed’ appearance) was due to the fact that British engravers had not seen a real tiger, and were modelling them on pussy cats! There is now apparently some evidence to suggest that they may have been requested in that style, reminiscent of many of the carvings and engravings on Hindu temples etc.



If anyone can shed factual light on the origins of Jeffery’s ‘prowling tigers’ engraving, I would certainly be pleased to hear it! I only have the 1910/11 catalogue, owners of a later version may have more to add on these fascinating doubles.


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #24962 - 23/01/05 05:16 PM

Marrakai,

Thank's for taking the time to post on your rifle.

It's a damn shame that the owner of the Jeffery records is proving to be so inaccessable. Perhaps somebody in the US knows the guy and could give him a "tune-up"?

The post 1924 Proof Marks on your rifle makes it comparatively late in the scheme of things, so when you get your Ledger copy it shall be interesting to see who the "maker" was.

I found your comment on the "naive" style of the Tigers interesting - I share your view that the style is Indian in origin. Certainly, it is in keeping with the typical illustrations found in books and etchings from the Rajputana region in India - indeed, I have some of these that I picked up in Jaipur once that are "dead ringers" for the Jeffery tigers.

Regarding the Provenance, I would have thought that if your had rifle came out of a Marharaja's Armoury, the number engraved on the oval might have been in Sanskrit?

Regards,

470R







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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #24972 - 23/01/05 10:25 PM

470R:
Perhaps one might expect a rack-number in Sanskrit on earlier guns, but between the wars in India it was all about "being British"! The guns were British, the visiting dignitaries were invariably British, many of the Maharajahs were educated in Britain and indeed some of them spent the summers in England as guests of Brit royalty. An armoury-number in western numerals is no surprise IMHO.

Here's a close-up:


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #24992 - 24/01/05 03:39 AM

Marakkai,

The theory that these were commissioned based on pictures of tigers painted on the walls of Hindu temples is definitely possible as I can see a clear resemblance especially to pictures in temples in South India. A number of zamindars in the South especially in what was then called the "Composite Madras Presidency" by British bureaucrats were keen hunters and they might well have commissioned religious scenes as many of them were more religious than North Indian Hindus were.

If you would need any assistance in contacting the owner of the Jeffrey records in the USA and if I could help, just let me know. I'd be more than happy to do what I could.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #24995 - 24/01/05 04:47 AM

the tiger question remind me on an old print from time around 1850 I buy last year in Berlin for 15 euro. Its this style of drawing a tiger.
Marakai-send you a PM for your e-mail address. I will scan the print and send it to you, please post it here.
It may be the rigth place to show this little thing.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25005 - 24/01/05 08:44 AM

At various times, the rulers of Indian States probably carried the British Gunmaking trade, certainly for DB rifles. As a consequence of the Recession precipitated by the "Wall Street Crash" of 1929, the British trade went into a decline from which it never fully recovered.

To illustrate this, Holland and Holland's records show an average number of "starts" of 500 guns in the 1910/11 period, but in the 1930's this was down to 176.

The Indian rulers were seemingly isolated from all this, and certainly during this period were the major customers for British DB rifles, so the vast majority were, in essence, "Maharaja Rifles".

My curiosity is why the Jefferey "Prowling Tiger" rifles are singled out for this this title? If a significant number can be shown to have different origins, then surely that puts the lie to this particular notion?

BTW - It is also a mistake to assume that the Indian rulers of the era were universally "Anglophilic". Some were totally opposed to British rule, to the point of refusing to buy British-made guns, preferring instead to purchase from European sources





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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25012 - 24/01/05 09:55 AM

470Rigby,

If you are talking of the maharajas or the erstwhile kingdoms in India, after 1857 there were none who were anti British. The only ones that had been anti British lost the Sepoy Mutiny then and there was no major opposition to the British in India except from the Congress, a party started by a British socialist, Allan Octavian Hume, and that is why the Indian government abolished the minor monarchies after independence.

That said, other than Mannlichers which were very popular bolt rifles in India I have not seen many pre independence Continental guns if any sold there at any time unless you take cheap American Harrington and Richardsons and other similar single barrel shotguns which were sold in large enough numbers to farmers for vermin control.

Indians boycotted British clothing and cars but not guns - I cannot recall ANY boycott of British guns by any individual or group in recorded Indian history.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25018 - 24/01/05 12:29 PM

Marrakai

If you ever get the info, I remember you mentioned it back it August, I would be intrigued to find out any history on my Jeffrey and follow-up as well.

"Rack numbers" for doubles for visiting hunters. We live in lesser times.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25027 - 24/01/05 02:57 PM

Mehul
In reply to:

in India I have not seen many pre independence Continental guns if any sold there




Apart from Mausers and Mannlicher Sporting rifles, quite a few Belgian made DB rifles were sold in in India. I know this because I have seen such rifles that have been imported into Australia from India. Also, as you will see from the 1926/27 Manton catalogue, they were selling Over and Under rifles of obvious Continental origins. This rifle is very reminiscent of Merkel rifles.


Now, I can't vouch for how many were sold, or whether many found their way into "Maharaja's" Armouries, but the British certainly did not have the market to themselves.

As for Anglophobic Rulers, it is true that the British did subdue the recalcitrant rulers after the Mutiny of 1857, but I don't recall them being univerally converted into English lackeys! Even dear old Duleep Singh, who was virtually raised by Queen Victoria, and who features in all the books on Pre-Edwardian Game Shooting, eventually turned against the British and left in the late 1880's to conspire with the Germans, the Russians, the French or whoever would help him in his ultimately futile attemt to regain the Kingdom that that he was stripped of by the British.

In the context of that time, European politics was extremely volatile (Germany was even in alliance with Britain!), and much of this had a knock-on effect to the British colonies.

As for boycotts on buying British guns, I did read this somewhere, but being of advancing years, I'm afraid my diminished mental faculties cannot remember where! Probably in "Lives of the Indian Princes","Plain Tales of the Raj","Princely India", or some such. When time permits, I shall trawl through my library to see if I can find it.

Regards,
470R


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25080 - 24/01/05 11:55 PM

470R:

In reply to:

My curiosity is why the Jefferey "Prowling Tiger" rifles are singled out for this this title? If a significant number can be shown to have different origins, then surely that puts the lie to this particular notion?




Ask yer father for a lesson in manners, mate. No liars here! I certainly didn't invent the term 'Maharajah Guns' to describe Jeffery's 'prowling tigers' boxlocks, the monica has been around for decades, and will be around for many more. I simply responded to your query. Not much point in burring up over the answer!

If anyone here can demonstrate that Jeffery sold 'prowling tiger' boxlocks to customers other than Indian royalty, this would certainly be a contribution, but we are unlikely to ever discover the names of original purchasers of Jeffery's rifles. My understanding is that the surviving ledgers do not contain that information, but I would be very happy to be wrong on this!

470R:
Regarding your last post, I think you may be deliberately mis-leading here with your account of continental guns bought by Maharajas.

Your example shows an East German gun marketed by Mantons, a British firm in India, and finished in the British style! The fact is that this speaks volumes about the entrepreneurial spirit of the Manton firm, and says nothing about gun-preferences of the Maharajahs. Manton was happy to source his wares from all and sundry, but the buyer of such an arm could hardly have been 'anti-British', or he would not have been shopping at Mantons!

Here's another example belonging to a mate: crown over 'U' Suhl inspection mark clearly visible on the flats, but finished in the best English style (and probably sold without drawing attention to the actual country of origin!).



...and no matter who Duleep Singh may have 'gotten in to bed with' in the late 1880's, he invariably preferred British guns to the grave!


pwm: reply PM coming your way, with thanks!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25094 - 25/01/05 04:12 AM

marrakai the pic is on the way to you, thank you

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pwm
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25098 - 25/01/05 04:42 AM

Manton have sell more than one gun from Suhl, have somewhere a pic of 470NE sxs.
Remeber an article in a gun magazin here about Heinrich Barella, gunmaker in Berlin. the article have some pics from 1926 or 1927 with a maharajah and mister Barella on the range. the maharajah was on a shoping tour and testing some guns.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #25099 - 25/01/05 04:58 AM

470Rigby,

Duleep Singh's on and off association with the British government was probably more related to his affair with Queen Victoria than any political reason. The Sikh empire at Lahore was history after his father was assassinated by his stepmother.

I am not denying that Continental guns were sold in India - when even cheap American guns were, there was no doubt that Continental guns would have sold. But I have visited almost all the major palace armouries in Tamilnadu and Andhra as a good friend in Belgium wanted to buy some guns from India some years ago. While I did see many handguns made on the Continent and in the USA, I saw hardly any rifle or shotgun made anywhere other than in Britain except if it was retailed by a British company. There are big dealers like Rusi Jijina and DVS Rao who have some old Sauers and Simpsons but the percentage if taken in relation to their entire stock is considered it would probably be 1 to 2% and definitely not more than 5%.

BTW the Maharajas even started their own political party in the 1930s when it became evident that independence was only a question of time, the Mahajana Sabha, and their raison d'etre was to stay within the British empire as a dominion.

Anyway, this is too off topic on a thread about beautiful guns and let us stick to guns and not to Indian politics.

Best wishes,



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #25101 - 25/01/05 05:08 AM

Marakkai and pwm,

Please post the picture here. I am sure that I am not the only member interested in seeing it. Give us something extra to enjoy and thanks in advance for this.

Good hunting and best wishes!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #25112 - 25/01/05 09:00 AM

Mehul,
In reply to:

let us stick to guns and not to Indian politics



Agreed - probably of no interest to 99.99% of the members who simply want to shoot the guns, and would have no interest whatsoever in their historical associations.

At the risk of being seen to want to labour the point, I was simply try to correct an impression that the relationship between the Indian rulers and the British was totally cosy. Some of their resentments of the Brish stemmed from British attempts to curb their excesses, but (IMO) they came to see the British as a better alternative to the nasty thing called "DEMOCRACY" that was looming at the hands of Messrs Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, et al.

I shall PM you on the topic.


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: pwm]
      #25117 - 25/01/05 10:06 AM

pwn
Here is a "miniature" of a British Sportsman shooting a Tiger from a Howdah. This is from Patiala State in about 1892.


I would be interested to know who the Maharaja was that was out shopping for a Barrela gun. Barrela enjoyed the patronage of the Russian Royal family - prior to their demise! The Russians were also quite cosy with the Nizam of Hyderabad. This is a photo from the Grand Duke Alexanders visit in to Hyderabad in 1891.


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