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470Rigby
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Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23567 - 06/01/05 02:23 PM

Rusty,
Your original post said

In reply to:

On the copy of the Jeffery records I have seen at Champlin Firearms, almost all of the barrelled actions were acquired from Leonard. Page after page listed Leonard.




My point was that, at least in the early days of his business, Jeffery was primarily an assembler of parts, who then sent them to a finisher. His Order Ledgers simply itemise the breakdown of costs for parts (actions/barrels/sights/furniture, etc.)and final assembly (including actioning/stocking/regulating etc.) or in other words, finishing.

If Leonard is listed in ledger entries that you have seen as a supplier of "barreled actions"; who is listed as the finisher? If Jeffery bought the whole lot "lock, stock and barrel" as a finished rifle from Leonard then surely the ledgers would show that, and not itemise the "barrelled action"?

Of course it is possible that Leonard bought barrels from Krupps and actioned them before selling them on to Jeffery, but that seems unlikely. It also begs the question - who finished them if Leonard didn't?

We do know that Jeffery was a major customer of Krupps since many ledger entries specifically mention that; even giving the cost. I think that is not illogical to assume that Jeffery bought in "tubes" as they are referred to for shotgun and rifle barrels, and passed them on to a finisher.

As I have tried to point out in my previous posts, if the origins of Jeffery's double rifles is an issue that needs resolving, then there has to be a distinction drawn between the various contibutors to the final product.

Since many "Jeffery" double rifles (and rifles signed by other retailers) carry a 4-digit number on the barrels (Wal Winfer describes this as a "maker's control number" which had exceeded 2000 by the 1930's), this would seem to suggest that they might would have been applied by the finisher, rather than the action or barrel supplier, who may not neccessarily have been one and the same?

A page from Jeffery's 1908 Order Ledger exclusively devoted to Shotguns in the Serial Number range 20041-50, simply lists Leonard under the "Made by and Date" column, thus indicating that they were bought in fully finished. Note this is contemporary with the the rifle Ledger that I posted in which Turner is given as his finisher. Perhaps the later "Post-Turner" entries for double rifles say the same thing, indicating that they were similarly bought in fully finished, rather than as "barrelled actions"?

Perhaps this is now becoming an exercise in pedantry, and we are getting confused about the role of the various people in Jeffery's supply chain?

Personally, I'm getting to the point of not giving a "rat's arse" one way or the other!


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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23571 - 06/01/05 05:15 PM

Gentleman: According to an article published by the American gunsmith and writer Douglas Tate, by the late 1880s both Jeffery and Leonard had outlets on Queen Victoria Street in London -- Jeffery at number 60 and Leonard at 147. Shortly after this, Jeffery records show many of their double rifles as being made by Harry Leonard, who was the son of Daniel Leonard, who set up as a gunmaker in Birmingham as early as 1832. Harry Leonard had his workshop at 19 Lench Street in Birmingham. George Ellis, who worked for Leonard as an actioner and jointer, says the firm also built many guns and rifles for Daniel Fraser, whose guns often exhibit the several variations of the shaped boxlock action found on Jeffery rifles. In this article, there is much more information on the history of the Leonard firm. Perhaps this will be of interest. Keith

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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23572 - 06/01/05 05:45 PM

Keith,

In reply to:

the firm also built many guns and rifles for Daniel Fraser, whose guns often exhibit the several variations of the shaped boxlock action found on Jeffery rifles




Assigning makers by vitue of the shape of an action is somewhat problematic. For example, here are what I would call fairly typical Dan'l Fraser double rifles;

Firstly a BPE;



and a pair of typical .303 doubles;



None of them look like the so-called typical Leonard/Jeffery/A.Hollis rifles shown elsewhere in this thread!

Now, here is a Jeffery rifle attributed to Leonard, from your source, "Birmingham Gunmakers" by Douglas Tate;



Note that flat action back - a bit different to Rusty's typical Leonard rifle??? In fact, I once owned a Jeffery rifle that was identical to this rifle, and it was also a dead ringer to a Wilkes .470 that I believe is currently in the possesion of another poster on this forum.

Upshot of all this?? IMO - attibuting "gunmakers" on the basis of the shape of the action is fraught with danger.

BTW - Donald Tate was born in Newcastle-on-Tyne, England and worked in the graphic arts industry in London, Sydney and New York until he was 40, after which he became a Seattle-based Gundealer. A knowledgeable man he might be, but I would have liked to see more acknowledgements of his source material in his book, rather than simple regurgitation of some "urban legends" that have been put about, particulaly by some US based "gunwriters"!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23573 - 06/01/05 07:19 PM

In reply to:

Since Jeffery used a lot of Krupp barrels for his double rifles, it could be assumed that few were bought in as barreled actions, which would seem to excude Leonard as a major source.




About as good an urban legend as I've seen!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23602 - 07/01/05 04:13 AM

Yes, I agree that assigning make with respect to action shape is problematic. In fact, the shaped action of my Jeffery is like none of the photos posted in this thread. The Jeffery with the stalking tigers in the photo above belonged to a friend of mine. Lying his rifle next to mine, you might not think they were both Jefferys. In fact, mine is exactly like the Number 2 rifle illustrated in one of the Jeffery catalogues I have perused (as well as the primary rifle photo in the Tate article), with full coverage scroll and toe and heel plates, while his is the less expensive number 3 model. The number 1 model in the illustrations was, I believe, an underlever boxlock with full scroll, and a very elegant rifle indeed. I think that lost in all these threads is what fine rifles some of these were. Most Jefferys were "using guns" and some I've handled have been misuded or overused -- they are beat to hell. But classic examples like my rifle and the stalking tiger rifle are wonderfully balanced, handsome weapons that may or may not have killed more Indian game than double rifles by any other maker. I could be very wrong about this, Army&Navy guns were popular as well, but in all the literature I have researched the Jeffery name comes up more than others in connection with Indian hunting. As an aside, I will say that I once passed up buying a Jeffery 450/400 with the push underlever, full scroll, as typical of the Jefferys in 600 Nitro. It was, I believe, sold for $6,000. I talked to the man in Salt Lake City who owned it. He told me it was 10 pounds 8 ounces, which I thought was too heavy, as many Jefferys in 450/400 come in around 10 pounds 2 ounces or even less and I hunt in mountains at 8,000 feet elevation or more. What a fool I was! Anyway, I think one of the reasons this thread is so popular is because of the quality of these rifles at prices that are, or at least, were, much more affordable than the sidelock London guns. Keith


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23622 - 07/01/05 09:44 AM

Keith,

Very interesting! All these different styles of Jeffery's!

For the benefit of other members, do you have any photos that you could post? Also,it could be quite illuminating if you had some copies of original Jeffey Ledger entries? That might shed some light on who actually made the rifles mentioned, ? Or at least Serial Number ranges?

So far, all we have is NE450No2's rifle that was made by Edwinson Green which has the so-called "Leonard Style" action back (pointedly ignored by some othe posters!),
and a .475 No.2 in the same style that is purportedly by Leonard.

In fact, I reckon we should get a "Jeffery Double Rifle Gallery" going! How about it Nitrox?

To kick things off, here are a couple of different style Jeffery's that I once owned;

Firstly, a late model .333 Flanged NE in the S/N 255XX range;



Note the "round" action body. I have a mate with a late .333 that is completely different, and looks to be of European origin. I will attempt to get a photo of this rifle.

And an an early, presumably "Pre-Leonard" .577x31/4" BPE double in the S/N 4XXX range;



Note the "scalloped" action back, a la "Leonard"?, and the distinctly different shape of the balls of the action!

BTW - The "primary rifle" photo shown in Tate's book (pp86) is a shotgun, and is a dead ringer for a Jeffery Shotgun of mine. But note the asymmetrical shape of the scalloped action back - quite different to that found on Jeffery rifles that have such "fancy" backs.



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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23623 - 07/01/05 09:51 AM

Crouching Tigers, Hidden Leonards?


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23627 - 07/01/05 10:08 AM

Hey Rusty,

Didn't take you long to go "off-topic"! In case you hadn't noticed I was calling for photos of Jeffery rifles, not A. Hollis (or any other retailer that had his guns made by Leonard)!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23633 - 07/01/05 10:29 AM

470,
Not off topic. Just thought you could use a little humor to go with those urban legends!

Best regards,


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23635 - 07/01/05 10:55 AM

Rusty,

I reckon you must be a frustrated aspiring Jeffery owner!

You keep throwing that Hollis into this Jeffery thread!

Other members must be starting to get a bit confused??

P'raps you should get it re-engraved to "W.J. Jeffery &Co", and no-one would be the wiser - and you would have a Jeffery!


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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23636 - 07/01/05 11:08 AM

Speaking of frustration. . . off topic I see?

Actually, I am a very happy owner of an A. Hollis and Son, 450/400 3 inch. I don't need a Jeffery, because I have the same barreled action that Jeffery used. With Krupp Steel barrels too!

You hang in there mate!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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deant
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23637 - 07/01/05 11:14 AM

that is some interest engraving on that BPE. I think I like it. It is different.
I for some reason have wanted a 303 double rifle those look like some nice ones in those pictures.
Dean
I did pickup a nice wj jeffery double shotgun cheap this year I was going to rebarrel it to a double rifle but it turned out to be to nice to butcher.

Edited by deant (07/01/05 11:16 AM)


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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: deant]
      #23643 - 07/01/05 12:20 PM

Guys, I'd like to post some photos of my Jeffery, a page from the logbook with my rifle in it and a couple government documents in the original case which, I think, are gun registration papers. All the maharajas, I believe, could be wrong, had to register their weapons with the government after the fall of the Raj. Embarrased to say I must wait until my son is home next week before I can post them because I'm so computer illiterate. It's something of an irony, for I make my living writing on a computer. In fact, I wrote an article about Jeffery double rifles with many photos in the Double Gun Journal a few years ago. I must say I have learned more from Rusty, 470 Rigby and all of you than I did from my own research. Anyway, the photos to come. Keith

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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23651 - 07/01/05 02:05 PM

Keith,
That is what this is all about. Exchanging information, learning and growing. As much as I love to hunt with my double, I get the greatest thrill being with other double rifle shooters, telling stories and exchanging our research and finds.

Tomorrow is a grand day for me. I'm off to Dallas for the Dallas Safari Club Convention. The Double Rifle Shooters Society meeting will be gaveled to order and our 'Band of Brothers' will come together to enjoy each other's company.


Best regards,


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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NE450No2
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23652 - 07/01/05 02:34 PM

My Edwinson Green and Sons rifle has the flat action back and the same rear sights as the 450/400 Jeffery rifle pictured in 500 Nitro's post.
All the Jeffery double rifles I have handled have an action
that looks "different" from other double rifle actions.
I do not mean the back of the action,I have seen flat backs, the round back, and another sculptured type back.
All on rifles marked Jeffery. My Green rifle has this same type action. Someone once told me that they thought Jeffery got his actions made in Europe, maybe Belgium. Has anyone else heard this?

I hope to meet any of the AR Posters who are going to the Dallas Safari Show. Just look for a Distinguished Group of Double Rifle Shooters, walk up and introduce yourself.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23660 - 07/01/05 07:10 PM

Bluedevil:

I remember the article you wrote about your .333 for DGJ long ago and recognized your name. Good read. I've lost my copy of that issue. Which one was it?

For some reason, maybe the photos, I seem to remember that yours might have had a third fastener? The reason I ask is that I've only seen a couple of Jeffery rifles that did. They usually just have a round dolls head. I read the article long ago and am probably just not remembering correctly.

What does your .333 weigh? I've used a double in the mountains some - in Idaho's Clearwater for black bear and Colorado for elk - but the rifle I use for that is an 8 3/4 lb Evans .400/.360. I came close to buying a Jeffery .333 once, but it weighed 10 lbs.
--------------------------------




--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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unspellable
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23674 - 08/01/05 12:34 AM

I too am used to seeing a round doll's head with no third fastener on Jeffery rifles. Did any body else use such a doll's head?

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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: unspellable]
      #23677 - 08/01/05 01:29 AM

NE450No2:
Jeffery sourced most (probably ALL) of his Farquharson actions from Belgium, NOT his double rifles.

A Jeffery .400 ejector double in my custody has the third bite. I didn't think it particularly unusual: I have seen another, a .333 non-ejector. Both are so-called 'Maharajah Guns' with the naive 'prowling tigers' engraving.





--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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bluedevil
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #23709 - 08/01/05 12:16 PM

Keith here: Have a great trip, Rusty. Hi 400 Nitro. My Jeffery does not have a third fastener and it weighs 9 pounds, perhaps a few ounces less. I have handled one 333 Jeffery that probably weighed 10 pounds, it had the stalking tigers and was flat or straight across the back of the action. I have found, as a rule, that Jefferys with the type of scaplloped action mine has are a little trimmer than the same caliber in the 3rd quality rifle that has the straight across the back action and the simple tiger or guar engraving. Perhaps the latter, being less inexpensive, were built on more standard frames, the 333 being built, say, on the same frame as a 450/400. In any case, mine is defintely built on a frame scaled down for the cartridge. By contrast, I have handled a couple 318 Westley Richards, both droplocks, that weighed 10 pounds 6 ounces and 10 pounds 8 ounces respectively. One of them is presently being offered by Westley Richards American store in Bozeman, Montana, which is where I live. Now what is the point of a 318 that weights 10 and half pounds? Keith
PS I'm not sure which issue my article was in, but I'll dig through the stacks and try to find it. In it I featured my 333 and my friends 450/400 with the stalking tigers engraving.


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4seventy
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: unspellable]
      #23711 - 08/01/05 01:32 PM

In reply to:

I too am used to seeing a round doll's head with no third fastener on Jeffery rifles.




Actually the "round dolls head" IS a "third fastener".

If the dolls head has a notch in it which is engaged by a top lever protusion or something similar, like Marrakai's 400, this is called a "third bite".


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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: bluedevil]
      #23717 - 08/01/05 02:49 PM

bluedevil:

In reply to:

the 333 being built, say, on the same frame as a 450/400



I have had occasion to compare the two fore-mentioned Jeffery 'Maharajah' guns, mine in .400x3-inch, the other in .333. In all respects (except chambering and ejection) these two rifles were identical, however the actions were NOT the same size: the breech-face for the .400 being some 5mm WIDER than the .333. This fact was not apparent to the eye, however the micrometer doesn't lie!

Furthermore, the .400 is a very tight squeeze into the .333's oak'n'leather case. How do I know this? I acquired the .333's case for my uncased .400 before the former rifle (with stuffed bores) retired to the NT Police firearm museum.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Marrakai]
      #23791 - 09/01/05 04:33 PM

Marrakai,

No doubt you have posted some details of your 450/400 before, but in the interests of fleshing out some of the origins of these Jeffery doubles, do you have any information on it that you could share?? Such as;

* Original Ledger entry incl. date of Manufacture/Serial No range.
* Chambering 31/4 in case or the later .400S.
* "Makers Control No", from the barrel near forend hanger.

Also - I would be interested to know where the "Maharaja Gun" thing came from?

Ta

470R


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470Rigby
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #23796 - 09/01/05 05:51 PM

In reply to:

the shotguns are said to have come from John Saunders




Here is an entry from Jeffey's 1908 Order Ledger that lists nine 12 bore shotguns and one 10 bore, consecutively numbered.


A few intersting observations;

* All are shown as made by "Leonard".

* The ten shotguns were made over a period of nine months(from 28 Jan - 15 Sep) - little more than one gun per month. Doesn't seem enough? Perhaps he sourced from other suppliers and kept their records in a different ledger?

* Shotguns were still being made with Damascus barrels as late as 1908!

* One 23/4" gun was made with a "plain" dolls head (i.e no 3rd fastener) - obviously to handle the heavier charge, but not others! And the same approach would have been taken with double rifles, with some rifles of the same chambering being given a third fastener, but not others. Perhaps it depended on what actions were in stock at Leonard's - or maybe on the buyers chequebook! Whatever, there were probably no hard and fast rules to this!

Is has to be realised that the British Guntrade just didn't pump these guns out like Winchester rifles. Each gun was hand-made - and how it ended up probably depended on what was in the parts bin.

Maybe - one day, someone will write a book about the real story behind the British Guntrade?

In the interim, do any other members have any Jeffery shotguns with documentation that they could report on?


Edited by 470Rigby (10/01/05 12:23 AM)


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shakari
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: Rusty]
      #23798 - 09/01/05 06:29 PM

Is there any connection between this Thomas Turner and Thomas Turner Guns now based in Reading Berkshire UK?

Also can anyone shed any further light on Hollis?......I have an old Hollis shotgun an a friend has a Hollis .470 double (which he would like to sell).

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Rusty
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Re: W.J. Jeffery History [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23821 - 10/01/05 06:14 AM

I did find a Jeffery 475#2 Nitro at Champlin's booth at the Dallas Safari club show.

Please not Leonard 4 digit number and steel barrels




George Caswell has promised to send me copies of all the Jeffery records in his possession. I will post as many if not all when I get them and will try to have an emailable file to be able to send to those who want it.

While at the show I spoke with a gentleman via phone in North Carolina who owned a Jeffery 475#2 Jeffery made in 1927. His rifle also possesed the Leonard 4 digit number. He has promised to send me pictures and I will post those when they arrive to me.

Here is a link to some of the pictures I took at the Dallas Safari Club Convention this past weekend.
Dallas Safari Club post on AR.

Best regards,


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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