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9.3x57
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Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP
      #227238 - 20/03/13 12:02 AM

Testing some loads the other day. Old WW2 production steel-cased/steel-jacketed .45 ACP. I was impressed the Extreme Spread was only 25 fps on 70 year old ammo. Admittedly only for three shots chronographed, but still...

But at 759 fps this is quite under spec for military ammo of the day. Due to the ES, I do not think the ammo has degraded.

Anyway, I was testing the steel-jacketed bullets on my pistol plate. Technical material from US Army Ordnance addresses the superior penetrative performance of steel-jacketed .45 bullets over the regular gilding metal clad jobs. My test indicated a little better performance than standard fare. With bullets running 100 fps faster {milspec} I'd expect full penetration thru the plate. The plate is .081 thick of unknown metallurgy. Probably mild steel.

.45 ammo always appears anemic in steel plate tests and Uncle was always interested in bettering the performance. A steel-core, steel jacketed 200 grain bullet running 1000 fps or a little better would have sealed the deal. But it never got to see the light of day, and I've never seen where they ever tried such a thing.

Anyway...

ECS 42 on the left. The other stuff is WW1 production cupronickel, etc.



Hanging on the cow magnet. The stuff;



Almost;



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227351 - 22/03/13 12:14 AM

best, if it could work in a pistol action would be a .223 steel core FMJ with a sabot in the 45 ACP. or you dublicate the old THV bullet which was also made for the 45 ACP once
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/THV.htm

"

.45 "auto pistol" 3.9 g / 60 grains 620 ms / 2,034 fps 750 j / 553 ft lbs

"When tested by the French police, the bullets worked as advertised in that they could punch through steel plates (XC 18 50 daN steel) while producing wide wound channels with relatively little penetration in Plastiline targets. Specific terminal ballistic data was as follows:

PENETRATION OF STEEL PLATE 3 mm / 0.12 inch"

I think every bullet maker with a CNC lathe can make this bullets today.

the russian go another way with their 9mm Parabellum AP load:
"Perhaps the most interesting recent development has been the Russian adoption of the 9 x 19 round, just as NATO was searching for its replacement. In this case, the 9 x 19 is seen as significantly more effective than the long-established 9 x 18 Makarov (an attempt to boost the performance of the Makarov round up to NATO 9 x 19 levels with the 7N16 high-pressure loading was abandoned because of the danger of using this in older guns). The effectiveness of the new Russian 9 x 19 is significantly enhanced by the development of new loadings which combine the ability to pierce body armour with the benefits of a full-calibre bullet against unprotected personnel. It achieves this by means of a method of construction which is similar to that of Second World War APCR, HVAP and PzGr 40 anti-tank gun projectiles: the bullet has a hard sub-calibre core contained within an outer sleeve and separated from it by a polyethylene layer.


If the bullet strikes an unarmoured target, it holds together to produce a wide wound channel. On impact with armour, the sleeve is stripped away and the core penetrates alone. Two different loadings have been introduced: the 7N21 (5.3 g at 460 m/s for 560 J muzzle energy) and the 7N31 (4.2 g at 600 m/s for 756 J - both figures are from pistol barrels). The latter in particular is a very high-pressure loading which can only be used in particularly strong pistols. Not satisfied with improving the 9 x 19 in this way, the Russians have also introduced a longer 9 x 21 round for special forces weapons to achieve the same effect. The 7N29 AP loading fires a 6.7 g bullet at 410 m/s for 560 J, and will reportedly penetrate two 1.2 mm titanium plates plus 30


layers of Kevlar at 50 m. This Russian approach appears to provide the best of both worlds. The disadvantage is that high impact velocity is needed for this to work, so the bullets (especially in the 9 x 19) are relatively light to maximise the muzzle velocity. This does mean that they will lose velocity relatively quickly, limiting their effective range.




Russian 9mm composite AP bullet, showing the penetrating core and the remains of the sleeve after hitting armour"

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/PDWs.htm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/03/13 12:16 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: lancaster]
      #227354 - 22/03/13 01:31 AM

lancaster;

all good info!

True enough, and we of course now see the direction of modern PDW rounds such as the FN and HK.

My reference to the 200 was sinly because the first bullet made for the .45 Auto was of 200 grain wieght, the technology and experience of making simple steel core bullets existed at the time {WW2} and the Army had a desire to improve the penetration of the .45 ACP. Later developments certainly improved performance of rounds against hard targets, but Uncle Sam had an easy fix to some degree at his fingertips even back during the Big War, but never tried it.

As a side note, the steel jacketed lead core rounds were, later, required as standard in testing Hadfield helmet plate.

An interesting story follows;

At one point in 1944, testing of Hadfield manganese helmet/armor plates revealed continuous failures of the plate against the standard loads being used which were .45 ACP bullets handloaded to various velocities. Regulators rejected the plate lots then after research found that the testing had been done with newly acquired quantities of .45 bullets that were from production using steel jackets. These bullets had just enough increased penetrative performance to cause failure of the steel plates. Once this was found out, new specifications were established and steel jacketed bullets were ordered specifically to be used for all testing purposes.

Just why we used our own pistol caliber for testing purposes has always been a wee mystery to me, tho easy availability and cheap cost was likely the reason. Seems more sensible to use the 9x19 of course, tho the testing would have had to be done at longer ranges to keep the bullets outside the plate!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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9.3x57
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227355 - 22/03/13 01:34 AM

By the way, lancaster, I agree the Russian direction seems effective and simple. As for the ranging loss, I doubt that is a serious flaw. Compromises must be made, and certain the rounds will shoot with adequate velocity and energy out to 50 meters or more, ranges beyond which any pistol round is of dubious value.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227363 - 22/03/13 06:11 AM

Quote:

By the way, lancaster, I agree the Russian direction seems effective and simple. As for the ranging loss, I doubt that is a serious flaw. Compromises must be made, and certain the rounds will shoot with adequate velocity and energy out to 50 meters or more, ranges beyond which any pistol round is of dubious value.




I understand where you are coming from 9.3x57 when making the limited effective range statement, but students of old Elmer might disagree as to effective range of either pistol or revolver. Of course, they are not "Average" in any way.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: DarylS]
      #227366 - 22/03/13 06:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

By the way, lancaster, I agree the Russian direction seems effective and simple. As for the ranging loss, I doubt that is a serious flaw. Compromises must be made, and certain the rounds will shoot with adequate velocity and energy out to 50 meters or more, ranges beyond which any pistol round is of dubious value.




I understand where you are coming from 9.3x57 when making the limited effective range statement, but students of old Elmer might disagree as to effective range of either pistol or revolver. Of course, they are not "Average" in any way.




True, but the terminal effectiveness of ALL service pistols degrades so fast past 50 meters that the ability to hit with them is much offset by what the bullet is capable of when it gets there, especially when referring to penetration of body armor, helmets, and etc.

Even the best in armor punchers currently issued have very low sectional densities and do not hold that performance very far out.

Now, of course, if all you are armored with is a chest of feathers, well, beware!

I brought my son to meet the late Bob Hagel who told us of a time he and Elmer were scouting some elk country when the kicked up a ruffed grouse that flew across a meadow and landed just inside the treeline, a later measured 125 long paces away. Elmer saw it, and drew his 4" .44 and...from the saddle...fired one shot, killing the grouse.

I think all of us pistolero wannabees have made some pretty good shots on small stuff, grouse, ground squirrels, woodchucks, etc, but Hagel told me Elmer was pretty darn good. Tho...when I asked him about the famous 750 yard mulie kill with the .44, he smiled, and said just maybe Elmer was exaggerating.....a lot...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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9.3x57
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227374 - 22/03/13 09:14 AM

By the way, Daryl, check out the extreme spread in chronographing that '42 made ammo.

First, tho under speed fairly significantly, the ammo shot very well, and in ten rounds I had no misfires or any problems.

Many folks wonder how long their primers, powder, etc, will last. Well, here's an example of an answer. Stored right...a long time!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Tom_H
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227433 - 23/03/13 10:48 PM

Quote:

A steel-core, steel jacketed 200 grain bullet running 1000 fps or a little better would have sealed the deal. But it never got to see the light of day, and I've never seen where they ever tried such a thing.




Actually they did. The government made ammo for the Thompson that although marked 45, had slightly smaller dimensions than ACP (probably to reduce pressure issues if it was fired in a standard 1911), but ballistics more in line with the Roland (sp) 1200+fps.
Think that I remember the reference in one of the COW books.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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9.3x57
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: Tom_H]
      #227436 - 23/03/13 11:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A steel-core, steel jacketed 200 grain bullet running 1000 fps or a little better would have sealed the deal. But it never got to see the light of day, and I've never seen where they ever tried such a thing.




Actually they did. The government made ammo for the Thompson that although marked 45, had slightly smaller dimensions than ACP (probably to reduce pressure issues if it was fired in a standard 1911), but ballistics more in line with the Roland (sp) 1200+fps.
Think that I remember the reference in one of the COW books.

Tom




I think you might be referring to the ".45 Remington-Thompson". It was a short-lived experimental affair that went nowhere and never was loaded in any significant quantity. Also, it did not use a 200 grain steel-core bullet, but rather the other direction, a 250 grain pointed bullet. It was a sort-of attempt at a ".45 Magnum"-type round, the case being 1/10" longer than the .45 ACP. Interesting, but not the improvement to the .45 ACP that Uncle could have made if penetration of body armor and helmets was the goal of the pistol.

There's nothing in any COW edition I have referring to any round as you cite, but the R-T load is cited in various materials pertaining to the history of the Thompson.

As an aside, tho, if you have an older Lyman 454190 mold, you can get an interesting and very deep penetrating {in soft targets, not in hard/steel} load going. That semi-pointed bullet {it is the old 1800's Army bullet configuration} will get you over 800 fps in a 1911 and at 262 grains cast of wheelweights penetrates critters very deep indeed. I believe Lyman, due to demand by the CAS has reconfigured that mold to a wider meplat {for safe feeding in lever guns} and thus destroyed the historicity of it, and also likely reduced the penetration capability somewhat.

Anyway, the first .45 Auto load WAS indeed a 200 grain bullet made for the original 1905 auto pistol, but not at higher velocities, and not loaded with a steel core.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227466 - 24/03/13 04:34 PM

Quote:


My reference to the 200 was sinly because the first bullet made for the .45 Auto was of 200 grain wieght, the technology and experience of making simple steel core bullets existed at the time {WW2} and the Army had a desire to improve the penetration of the .45 ACP. Later developments certainly improved performance of rounds against hard targets, but Uncle Sam had an easy fix to some degree at his fingertips even back during the Big War, but never tried it.






I believe they let everything aside just for bringing production of whatever to the maximum.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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9.3x57
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: lancaster]
      #227475 - 25/03/13 12:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:


My reference to the 200 was sinly because the first bullet made for the .45 Auto was of 200 grain wieght, the technology and experience of making simple steel core bullets existed at the time {WW2} and the Army had a desire to improve the penetration of the .45 ACP. Later developments certainly improved performance of rounds against hard targets, but Uncle Sam had an easy fix to some degree at his fingertips even back during the Big War, but never tried it.






I believe they let everything aside just for bringing production of whatever to the maximum.




Yes, of course. That is obvious. And more so for the 40 years of standard issue AFTER WW2 due to the vast quantities of .45 ammo existing at the close of the war.

However, the .45 was used as the platform for ballistic testing of helmets and body armor from initial introduction of the M1917 helmet {the "British" design} thru the M1917A1 thru the M1 and development of body armor in WW2. Interestingly, the Army never addressed the failures of the .45 thru a program of improvement {as was done with the .30 Government cartridge} at any time in the cartridge's "lifespan"...and still hasn't. In fact, we are now issuing those Marines tabled to carry the 1911 ammunition deemed ballistically substandard in the early 1950's!

Curious, indeed.

It doesn't take a whole lot to stop a .45 FMJ. The "high technology" alternatives you presented above are not necessary to improve the .45's penetration capabilities since it starts so poor in this regard from the gitgo. If you add those options, however, you give nothing up in diameter and gain much in penetration. Personally, having used FMJ's in the .45 on many, many stock animals, I do not see the advantage of it in any significant way, none, when using FMJ's.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227487 - 25/03/13 05:06 AM

Quote:



Yes, of course. That is obvious. And more so for the 40 years of standard issue AFTER WW2 due to the vast quantities of .45 ammo existing at the close of the war.

However, the .45 was used as the platform for ballistic testing of helmets and body armor from initial introduction of the M1917 helmet {the "British" design} thru the M1917A1 thru the M1 and development of body armor in WW2. Interestingly, the Army never addressed the failures of the .45 thru a program of improvement {as was done with the .30 Government cartridge} at any time in the cartridge's "lifespan"...and still hasn't. In fact, we are now issuing those Marines tabled to carry the 1911 ammunition deemed ballistically substandard in the early 1950's!






I think people playing aroud with ballistic missiles, intercontinental bomber and nuclear submarines dont waste much brain about pistol ammo. its not realy important in this world.
I believe that the 10 mm Auto is the best handgun cartridge for the 21. century but understand the sentiments americans ahve about the 45 auto.
for myself I have only a bloody Walther PPK in 32 ACP today and dont feel that I ever need more handgun.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Checkman
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: lancaster]
      #227533 - 26/03/13 04:58 AM

My duty sidearm is the Glock 19. The ammo is Federal 124 grain HCI JHP +P 9mm Luger. My backup is a Smith & Wesson Model 49 Bodyguard .38 Special. I carry the Hornady Critical Defense .38 Spl +P in it. I like the calibers. I shoot them well. If I really need something more potent when I'm working I'm reaching for my Remington 870 12 gauge - which is loaded with slugs and 00 busckshot. Other officers on my patrol team have various AR-15 style rifles and carbines and one of the officers is a sniper on our SWAT team so he also has a Remington 700 rifle in .308 which he carries in his patrol car. As a team we should be able to deal with most problems that we might encounter - to include a North Hollywood style bank robbery.

Most of the officers carry the 45ACP Glock 21. I'm one of the freaks who opted for the alternative choice of the G19 (department mandated. G21 or the G19) because I have small hands and I want to be able to have a good grip on my pistol when everything has gone south.

I collect .38 Special double action revolvers (Colt, Smith & Wesson) and I have a couple .357 magnum revolvers and a couple S&W 45 autos. But for real world applications I like the .38 Special and 9mm for the above mentioned reasons. At least I know I'm fairly accurate with those calibers and have a better chance of hitting my target under stress. I've seen folks who are very good shots with 45ACP, 44 Magnum, .357 Magnum and so on. Good for them. I don't engage in the caliber wars. If it works for you then carry it. I don't measure my masculinety by the size of the bullet caliber that I carry.

Edited by Checkman (26/03/13 05:00 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: Checkman]
      #227535 - 26/03/13 05:25 AM

As for your choice of duty calibers, I'm w/ you, because entirely of my experience shooting butcher stock and critters with service pistols. Personally, I'd rather have more bullets in the handle or a New York Reload than a .45, again, just based on killing stuff with the .45 and the 9mm, for example.

I'm not at all saying caliber doesn't matter AT ALL, as the .32 ACP, while being lethal of course, is an amazingly worthless "stopper". That is not to say any service caliber is the Hammer of Thor. Stuck with FMJ's, the 10mm is shocking in is lack of stopping power. I've killed butcher stock and varmints with many service calibers.

But back on topic for a moment;

In reply to lanc above, the US military actually did invest quite a bit of effort in the search for improved personal defense options for pistol carriers. The result was the .30 M1 carbine, tho it "failed" as all shoulder arms do when trying to take the place of a pistol.

As for improvement of the .45 ACP itself, the US military had staggering quantities of ammunition left over from WW1 production and tho they could have developed it further {as was done in the development of the M1 .30-06 round, then "return" with the M2, then early on in WW2 conversion to almost 100% use of AP rounds}, they did not. It would not have been too difficult to do, tho, but the .45 was thought to be heading for obsolescence as indicated by the development of the carbine. In SPITE of the 1917 plan to equip all combat infantrymen with pistols in the previous war.

In spite of the 1940-41 carbine concept, the war itself generated a huge demand {once again...} for pistols. Interestingly, the .45 was heavily criticised by troops and ordnance for many reasons from weight of ammo and pistol, to ballistic performance to bulk of ammunition in shipping, to safety issues involving the SA mechanism, etc. Many do not realize that the call for "something else" was not done by desk jockeys but by many from combat arms units.

Nothing could be done really to improve logistic problems facing troops with the .45 due to ists size and weight and the size and weight of its ammo, of course, and military value of pistols is low enough as lanc says that the overabundance of the guns themselves kept real development of an alternative at arms length for another 2 generations.

But all along, inside ordnance circles, the limitations of the .45 were well-known and potential for ballistic improvement, ditto.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Checkman
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Re: Evanston Chrysler Sunbeam 1942 Production .45 ACP [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227555 - 26/03/13 03:38 PM

My father was a SP in the Air Force back in the mid-sixties. He was stationed in South Vietnam from 65-66. Often they would conduct patrols into nearby areas surrounding the Bien Hoa Air Base. So even though my father was Air Force he found himself performing in an Infantry role to some extant. He was issued a Winchester 1897 Trench Gun, a S&W Model 15 Combat Masterpiece , which he carried on his belt, and a 1911A1 Government which he carried in a shoulder holster. Yes he carried two full size handguns and a shotgun. The last couple months he was there he turned in the shotgun for an M16, but retained the 38 and 45. The theory was empty one handgun and then go to the other one if it came to that. In other words a "New York Reload" (of sorts). Several of the senior Non-coms were WWII combat vets who choose to go over with the Air Force when the Army Air Corp became it's own branch, separate from the U.S. Army, in 1947(?). Not knowing what to do with a bunch of grunts the Air Force made them sky cops.

Anyway they told dad and his fellow airmen that the secret to surviving a gunfight was to just keep shooting. Center of mass and shoot until your man went down. Basic and brutal. Nothing much about ammo caliber was ever said. Except to make sure you had enough of it.

Edited by Checkman (27/03/13 01:03 AM)


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